The Big Lie

Even the mayor of this Pakistan town believes this lie. This is beyond iggnorance, this is hate in it’s purest form which like in most cases is drenched with stupidity.
Is this Lie really as widespread as this story claims it to be?

If ever the world became a global village, it was last Sept. 11, when hundreds of millions of people around the world saw and heard the attacks on the World Trade Center.

But the very technology that made that the most communicated and most witnessed event in history also has contributed to what some are calling “the big lie.”

It turns out an overwhelming majority of people in the Muslim world, according to a Gallup poll, do not believe the attacks of Sept. 11 were orchestrated by Osama bin Laden, or by Arabs, or by Muslims.

Many believe, instead, that the whole thing was a conspiracy orchestrated by Jews.

Where did they hear that? From the television and the Internet.

How pervasive is the belief in “the big lie”? We found out when we visited a wedding party in a small town in Pakistan.

The scene: Muslims walking into a large tent where wedding party guests are gathered. Americans are rarely seen in places like this these days. But our guide, Khalid Khawaja, grew up there, and CBS reporter George Crile accepted an invitation to join him at this wedding party.

All the town’s leading citizens were there: the mayor; the pediatrician; a chemical engineer; a businessman; a journalist. And not one of them had anything friendly to say about America.

Said one guest: “People hate America. Yeah, that’s true.”

Such statements have come almost to be expected in the Islamic world. But what came next caught reporter Crile completely by surprise.

The Jews did it. That’s exactly what they are saying: the mayor, the businessman, the journalist, the baby doctor…everyone. And, as one of them said, “Osama is totally innocent!”

Totally innocent? It sounds incredible - the idea that Osama bin Laden had nothing to with the World Trade Center attacks. But as the Gallup poll later confirmed, that’s exactly what most Muslims believe.

“I was surprised that very few, even among the elites, believe that bin Laden did it,” says Dr. Shibley Telhami, the man whom Gallup commissioned to analyze the findings of its survey.

What is most important about the results of the polls?

Says Telhami, “Well, if you look at the polls - and the ones that I have done in the Arab world - pertaining to Sept. 11, it’s clear that there’s almost a unanimous view that bin Laden was not responsible for Sept. 11. And that actually comes as a shock to Americans, given the evidence that is obviously out there. How could this be?”

It’s a perplexing question. In this information age, it may be that the Sept. 11 attack was witnessed by more people than any event in history. And there was every reason to believe and hope that a consensus would have formed around the world about what had happened and who was responsible.

Mass murder had been committed and pictures of the 19 militant Muslim hijackers were printed in the papers. In America, there has never been any doubt about who was ultimately responsible. In the words of President Bush: “The evidence we have gathered points to a person named Osama bin Laden.”

But as pollster Telhami explains it, when the president talks, most Moslems simply don’t listen. He explains, “People say, ‘Yes, you’re giving me evidence. But frankly, I don’t trust the system. I don’t trust the messenger. I don’t trust the message. I just don’t believe.’”

But what is widely believed across the Muslim world, is the story we heard of the Jewish conspiracy, in which 4,000 Jewish employees at the World Trade Center were warned to stay home.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/60II/main520768.shtml

Not that I am convinced that Zionists were behind 9/11, but I ask the following question. Is Shipley T'elhami an Iranian Jew? Just curious.

Even if he wasn’t , you will likely raise the forced conversion in the past again. Go ahead indulge! Anyway, Iranians tell me that Talhami is not an iranian jewish name. Telhami are Lebanese Christians. Shibley has appeared on pbs many a times on the Lehrer report. It truly is shameful, I must say, how at every opportunity you bring up that if the reporter or opinion giver were a jew then the veracity of that report may be doubted. Are you really an American?


http://www.bsos.umd.edu/sadat/telhami_bio.htm

“I have always believed that good scholarship can be relevant and consequential for public policy. It possible to affect public policy without being an advocate; to be passionate about peace without losing analytical rigor; to be moved by what is just while conceding that no one has a monopoly on justice. This, I shall strive to do as the best way to be faithful to the title I now carry.” - Shibley Telhami

Shibley Telhami is the Anwar Sadat Professor for Peace and Development at the University of Maryland, College Park, and is a non-resident Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution. Before coming to the University of Maryland, he was Associate Professor of Government and Director of the Near Eastern Studies Program at Cornell University and a Visiting Fellow at the Woodrow Wilson Center. He has taught at several universities including the Ohio State University, the University of Southern California, Princeton University, Columbia University, Swarthmore College, and the University of California at Berkeley, where he received his doctorate in political science.

Among his publications are Power and Leadership in International Bargaining: The Path to the Camp David Accords (Columbia University Press, 1990); International Organizations and Ethnic Conflict, ed. with Milton Esman (Cornell University Press, 1995); Identity and Foreign Policy in the Middle East, ed. with Michael Barnett (Cornell University Press, 2002); The Stakes: America and the Middle East (Westview Press, forthcoming), and numerous articles on international politics and Middle Eastern affairs.

Besides his academic activities, Professor Telhami has been active in the foreign policy arena and has been a contributor to the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the Los Angeles Times. While a Council on Foreign Relations International Affairs Fellow, he served as advisor to the United States delegation to the United Nations during the Iraq-Kuwait crisis, and was on the staff of Congressman Lee Hamilton. He is the author of a report on Persian Gulf security for the Council on Foreign Relations, and the co-drafter of another Council report on the Arab-Israeli peace process. In addition, he is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and a member of the Board of Human Rights Watch. He also has a weekly radio commentary that broadcasts all over the Middle East.

yeah hate and/or ignorance. The same form we see when ppl here generalize about msulims or arabs. same thing...same hate..diff accents.

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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
yeah hate and/or ignorance. The same form we see when ppl here generalize about msulims or arabs. same thing...same hate..diff accents.
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Well said Pir Sahib.

I am an American who doesn't appreciate my government being hijacked by right wing Zionists, seen? Or the media control, either. I do appreciate your investigative work regarding Mr. T'elhami.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TOMASSO: *
I am an American who doesn't appreciate my government being hijacked by right wing Zionists, seen? Or the media control, either. I do appreciate your investigative work regarding Mr. T'elhami.
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I hope you are participating in the political process and convincing people of your viewpoint. Personally, I don't see any Zionist conspiracy. Israel is very useful to USA and has been very useful in the past. I suspect when the oil resources in the middle east run out, our special friendship with Israel will come to its natural end. The same way we have found Musharaff to be a great ally at the present moment.

I dont know about the 4000 jew story, but the main reason as to why people are so polarly opposite in their views regarding what happened on Sept 11 is because US has settled into the opposite extreme.

To date, there has been no solid proof of Osamas involvement. What followed Sept 11 was a quick fire 3 minute investigation the led to the 'belief' that a bearded towelhead from a cave in torabora had pressed some buttons to mastermind 4 plans into the WTC and pentagon.
I believe the only button Osama has access to is his bellybutton. OTher than that, this american theory of his involvement sounds as absurd to people the world over as does the 4000 jew theory to americans.

sept 11 onwards has seen a lot of destruction, with no results, and no justice. A recent poll conducted in Europe also showed that more than 50% of the people disbelieved american explanations regarding Sept 11. So Pakistanis are not alone.

Fraudz and Akif Salaams and Salaams to all on the board.
Well said Pir Sahab and Moderator bhai...

WaSalaam

US has settled onto a polar extreme? There is more deliberation in this country than anywhere else in the world.

Here is the transcript for the 4000 jews lie program from 60 mins. Maybe the report of the evidence hasn’t circulated on gupshup. Maybe the venerable mod can get for the sticky thread.

This is a clear case of inherent dislike for the messenger. So the message gets shunned.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/60II/main520768.shtml

The Big Lie

Sept. 4, 2002

Questions at a wedding (CBS)

An overwhelming majority of people in the Muslim world…do not believe the attacks of Sept. 11 were orchestrated by Osama bin Laden… Many believe, instead, that the whole thing was a conspiracy orchestrated by Jews.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
US has settled onto a polar extreme? There is more deliberation in this country than anywhere else in the world.
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I was referring to the US govt in its extreme actions, most of which have been taken using the proverb of 'might is right' as the backdrop.

Americans have allowed the govt to go ahead with it, which of course shows they are in agreement for it for the most part, and now the phrase 9-11 has established a sort of cult following here, headed by the govt itself. If anyone dares say anything against it while in the US, he is promptly taken to be a partner of terrorists, and is hauled to jail in secrecy, held their endlessly, and eventually deported on an unpaid parking ticket.

Again, like I said earlier, Muslims are NOT the only ones who dont agree with the US version of 9/11. Majority of the world does not agree with it. Of course, some of the theories are stupid, but so is the theory of a cave dweller having masterminded it....so is the theory of a paper passport having survived the crash....so is the theory that 8 undestructible black boxes didnt survive.....so is the theory that muslims are responsible.
Fact is, this case has not seen any logical investigation. It has only seen blind rage, and drive for senseless revenge against anyone who comes in their way. The US position since 9/11 has been that the incident gave them the right to attack and destroy anyone they want to, whever they want to. And anyone who disagrees with them, is a terrorist. THAT, is what Pakistanis, and most of the people around the world disagree with.

I want to know what constitute as an evidance?

What does the US has to do to prove that it was indeed Al Qaida? What would be a convincing argument?

Marely stating that so and so is not capable of doing it is an opinion, which by all means can be biased.

And I would like know what constitutes a logical investigation (short of interviewing the dead)? How should the US proceed with such a thing? Are there any leads?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ajee: *
I want to know what constitute as an evidance?

What does the US has to do to prove that it was indeed Al Qaida? What would be a convincing argument?

Marely stating that so and so is not capable of doing it is an opinion, which by all means can be biased.
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Its an opinion for sure. And the evidence put forth by the US against Alqaeda too is more on the lines of an opinion, rather than based on facts.

The only countries they bothered to show their 'irrefutable' evidence were ones that would side with US regardless.

I cannot say that the 'evidence' put forth is fabricated but the kind of evidence that has been floated worldwide in an attempt to implicate ALqaeda and Osama, is so generalized that it can be used to implicate about 50 million other people on this earth.

The onus is on the US to prove Osama or ALqaedas guilt....not on me to prove their innocence. Osama and Alqaeda may be extremists/terrorists in their own right, and I have no love lost for them, but neither do I see any evidence pointing squarely at them, nor do I see any justification for having destroyed an entire country as a result. The fact that the US has put the capture of Osama on the backbench should tell you how 'badly' they were after him to begin with.

By the way, since the onus is on the US, then why not tell us what solid evidence has the US presented implicating Osama/alqaeda?

There is a lawsuit pending involving an Iraqi newspaper article claiming some advance notice about a forthcoming attack against America. It is no great stretch of the imagination to think Bin Laden and crew were capable of 9/11. Flight school attendees, a terrorist textbook, plans for weapons procurement in the West and weapons caches all point to the will, means and material to go on a major, terror campaign.

I do not try to convince my fellow Americans of my opinions. The forces against this line of thought are too great and have been for longer than I have been alive. America might abandon relations with the Muslim oil states when oil runs out, but not Israel. It will overprotect that nation well beyond that, by my reckoning.

Americans do not share responsibility for opposition to things done now. Protesters run the risk of tying the hands of those sworn to defend the safety of the USA. This is not Viet Nam. Our country is vulnerable, not the sovereignty of the southern portion of Viet Nam. Our media is more to blame for keeping us in the dark before the terrible day.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TOMASSO: *

I do not try to convince my fellow Americans of my opinions. The forces against this line of thought are too great and have been for longer than I have been alive. America might abandon relations with the Muslim oil states when oil runs out, but not Israel. It will overprotect that nation well beyond that, by my reckoning.

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It really would be nice to know why you think that is so. I really really would like to know. Why would one think that over 90% of US congressmen and senators, and well over 90% of senior officials of the Federal Government would become so craven and beholden to the "Zionist" lobby that they would sacrifice American Interest? To claim that conservative christians like the cheif justice of USA, others like Scalia would simply sit by and watch USA being run from Jeruslam is so preposterous that I don't even know how to begin to think about it. Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Dole, Hastert, Rumsfeld, etc. etc. and the list is endless are all so cowed down by this Mythic power of The Jewish Lobby that will sit by and watch USA 's interest compromised? What ever happened to American sense of fair play and justice? Perhaps the attitute is a slight reflection of the "hostage syndrome". I assume the next thing that will be told is that the Manifesto of the Elders of Zion is a real true historical document and not a creation of the secret police of the Czars!!

That is the type of logic used to quell opposition positions by the rightwing Zionists. Those that lean towards Israel, largely do so without coercion. But the key lies in why they are in the positions in the first place. Both sides of the isle have one thing in common to attain and retain political power, support for Israel. Support in and of itself is fine. I do not wish to see Israel removed. But thoughtful criticism and coaxing seem to be held in reserve. Our interests aren't totally compromised by our support by the fact that we are the lone superpower. On a basis of facts alone, it is wise for the Zionists to target American political power for themselves. It is even legal. It doesn't mean I can get behind it, though. Israel etc uses the desire of some Americans for a strong, forward leaning militaryto their advantage. This is done by many methods, from think tanks to movies. America's sense of fair play and justice towards the Muslim East died with Franklin Roosevelt. That was 1945. I have never brought the subject of the "protocols" to this forum and won't. I would rather use source material from the real elders of Zion and their statements from about 1897 on!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TOMASSO: *
That is the type of logic used to quell opposition positions by the rightwing Zionists. Those that lean towards Israel, largely do so without coercion. But the key lies in why they are in the positions in the first place. Both sides of the isle have one thing in common to attain and retain political power, support for Israel.

[/QUOTE]

The above can mean two things:

  1. Most of the individuals in US Government are hypocrits. They support Israel not because they want to but they are terrified of the Jewish Lobby. I have a hard time believing that, given the fact that only 50 years ago most of the nice Americans were rabidly racists and there were unbelivable restrictions on opportunities for jews. It is like watching the old movies and not seeing one colored face. Absolutely amazing that in less than 50 years according to you they have been able to put the Fear of Jehovah in the Yankee Yellow spine.

  2. Most of the individuals in US Government really believe that US should support Israel at this time in history. The Jewish Lobby funds these guys who are able to go out and win elections. Now perhaps all these guys have a good reason to support israel. I was listening to khalilzad on a show. He is our ambassador to Afghanistan and is an Afghani himself. He claims to be a muslim. He was supporting Israel and giving good reasons for it. He is so craven that he cannot have an honest opinion on this issue? Hard to buy into that.

Perhaps Americans support Israel because it is in the Interest of America to support Israel. Why has not the power full Jewish Lobby been able to get Jonathan Pollard out of jail yet? Why wasn't the Israel lobby able to prevent the broadcast of ABC report on how the Israeli intelligence agents might have been in the neighborhood of the Twin Towers? I suspect when Americas interest diverges from Israel, the friendship will fade into the mist of history.

>>>By the way, since the onus is on the US, then why not tell us what solid evidence has the US presented implicating Osama/alqaeda?

Lets see;

The US law enforcement agencies have sorted out the "terrorist" in all the flights high jacked. Then got their traces back to their own profiles with previous links to Al Qaida & other terrorist organizations and the flight school trainings they recieved. They have also in some report linked the chief highjackers finances to Al Qaida funds.

They have documented that people involved in the Embassy bombing and of the USS cole were operations about 1-2 years in the planning and the executers were trained by the Al Qaida and funded by them.

Osama Bin Laden comes in to the picture of being a highly revered person in the Al Qaida operations & organization. There are confessions on him taped in secret that shows they were responsible and interviews taped in open of him declaring war and right after his speech his lieutenants claiming responsibility.

In the coming weeks, Al Jazera TV Network, run by Arabs (not an American channel), is going to air interviews of two Al Qaida officials that are suppose to explain how they planned, financed and executed the September 11 attacks.

Now lets here from those who think Al Qaida/Osama is not behind the attacks.

Now lets here from those who think Al Qaida/Osama is not behind the attacks.

First of all, I never said alqaeda or osama are NOT behind the attacks. I said there is not enough clear evidence presented, that would warrant their implication, or the destruction of an entire country for that matter.

The US law enforcement agencies have sorted out the "terrorist" in all the flights high jacked. Then got their traces back to their own profiles with previous links to Al Qaida & other terrorist organizations and the flight school trainings they recieved.

The US law enforcement also named a few hijackers who were later found to be alive. They also named a couple who had been dead for ages. They also named a couple whose passports had been stolen.
That leaves more than enough room for doubt.

They have documented that people involved in the Embassy bombing and of the USS cole were operations about 1-2 years in the planning and the executers were trained by the Al Qaida and funded by them.

What documentation have you exactly seen that has convinced you of this? The USS cole is a warship, and that put it squarely in harms way.....using that in any context is not logical.

Osama Bin Laden comes in to the picture of being a highly revered person in the Al Qaida operations & organization. There are confessions on him taped in secret that shows they were responsible and interviews taped in open of him declaring war and right after his speech his lieutenants claiming responsibility.

Like i said in my previous post, all of this is circumstancial.....not hardcore evidence, and can implicate half a billion people. How does the name Osama bin Laden exactly get implicated is my question. Just because he was a member of Alqaeda? So by your analogy, the US is justified in stuffing up Cuba with prisoners picked up from Afghanistan, all on the pretext that they were Alqaeda members? ANd that they can keep on doing that till cows fly? If one person of a group commits a crime, does the entire group become responsible?

In the coming weeks, Al Jazera TV Network, run by Arabs (not an American channel), is going to air interviews of two Al Qaida officials that are suppose to explain how they planned, financed and executed the September 11 attacks.

Yeah...Faces not shown.....sources not revealed...etc etc.