Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Apparently you are right Southie, but I would like to add that No Matter what we discuss whether it be Science or Faith!
We don’t see things as they are; we see things as WE are!
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
My question to people who are criticising the quran is, have you actually studied the quran? If yes, please explain the way to study the quran properly only then we can go to question, how is information given in the quran different from scientific method? The quran does not ask people to believe in it on basis of faith rather it tells people to believe in it on basis of proof. The quran tells people to seek proofs of each other and offers proofs itself.
Do you know the very first verse of the quran? What do you make of it. Please explain its actual arabic text in the quranic context. This verse clearly states the quran is highly scientific. Do not judge the quranic text on basis of nonsense of ignorant mullahs which is very obvious if you read their translations of the quran or its interpretations or explanations. Try and learn about origin of human language and its development and then learn arabic and you will see a very different concept of God in the quranic text than the one people are used to.
The whole human race is in deep identity crisis and the quran tackles this in the very second verse of the second surah of the quran called al baqarah. Why humanity is in identity crisis? Because people have no way of knowing their origin for certain. Not only that they do not know how to live in this world properly and they do not know what to expect in time to come. So humanity is surrounded by uncertainty and only hope is scientific method of studying the quran and finding answers to really serious questions.
1)The quran is the only book that claims to be kitaabil hakeem see 31/1-2. It tells people it is guidance for those who do works which make this world a beautiful place for mankind. Do you know meanings of words like hakeem and muhsineen? If not find out and please do not tell me about mullahs’ interpretation of these words. For mullahs all such words only mean doing good or naiki karna. If in doubt read 2/177 along with it. I can prove what I say even from mullahs translations and interpretations but there should not be any need for that because mullahs talk nonsense all the time about the quran and deen of islam due to their lack of knowledge about things.
2)In 28/2 the quran claims to be kitaabil mubeen. Find out what word mubeen means. It means it is a manifestly distinct or unique book like of which is impossible to bring about by any human being. The question is why no human being can bring about a book like the quran? It is because it is based upon what is true or right and not what is false or wrong. People have biases and God is free of any bias. In other words think about it, why will a capitalist write a book against capitalism or a communist against communism? Why will a human ruler write a book against a human ruling over mankind? And I can go on listing these things. This is why no human being could write a book like the quran because human beings come from human societies and there are not many who rise above their own societies to be critical of their societies and communities. In fact there are many points which tell us clearly that this book could not have been written by people. Do you see people making other people cleverer than themselves who are their enemies? This is what the quran is doing making all people clever by teaching them sense. It takes no human being as enemy. It is people who due to their own ignorance about the message of the quran take it as their enemy.
- The quran claims to be the criterion for distinguishing between truth and falsehood and right or wrong see 25/1. This is why it shows the way of life that is best possible for human beings to live by in this world properly. It tells mankind failing to learn this way of life properly and failing to adopt it faithfully will let mankind remain in terrible state of existence in this world.
4)The quran is a book for people who already have learned sense of making proper sense of things therefore of the message in the quran see 41/3. This means the quran is not for ignorant people who are not bothered with learning sense of making proper sense of things. Moreover there are plenty of verses which invite knowledgeable people to consider verses of the quran in depth. The quran condemns people who do not learn sense of making proper sense of things and then do not consider the quran in depth. It tells us they are like animals or worse. Therefore assuming the quran is a book of nonsense or not worth our consideration is the worst human beings can do for themselves. It is because the quran is most benevolent for whatever humanity could consider of benefit. Why? Because by following its advised way of life mankind could end up united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous in this world and be rewarded for doing so in the world to come.
5)The quran does not invite mankind to its advised way of life on basis of faith but puts forth its program that will ensure humanity is successful. It wants people to consider its road map for them and only if they are convinced this program will deliver what it says they should adopt it whole heartedly. The quran is like a building plan which is telling mankind how to build their human society properly. This is why if the plan is fine then adopting it is also fine and as soon as mankind will adopt it properly, it will start showing them results of their works according to plan. This is what deen of islam is fundamentally about.
6)It is for this reason people should read what I explain about the quran and deen of islam and build on it rather than wasting time in baseless arguments against each other which leave the quran aside. To me all scientists are foolish if they are not studying the quran themselves and all mullahs are foolish if they are not studying the real world realities. It is because God expressed himself through creation and revelation both, not only through creation nor only through revelation.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Religion and science have dfferent domains and conflict occurs when either one of them trespasses onto the other’s domain
- Science is about discovering and studying facts and their interrelationships
- Religion is about what the fact means to us and what to do about them
Conflict occurs when
- Religion (or rather its followers) makes claims about facts based on its supposed authority.
- Science (or rather scientists) makes claims about meaning of facts based on its supposed authority
Any reference to natural phenomena in Scriptures is either metaphoric or simply refers to the knowledge of the times. It’s purpose is to unveil its meaning in the light of the relationship between God and the world. It is not intended as a discovery of facts or even affirmation or refutation of existing facts.
The story of Adam or Eve, for example, is a metaphorical story and is not intended to describe historical facts like the theory of evolution does.
On the other hand, when scientists start telling us the meaning of facts (e.g. social darwinism) they are just engaging in bad theology.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
I have noticed the more reasonable people in this thread give me their thoughts. A general pattern I am noticing is affirmation that science and religion are different domains and should not really intersect.
Though, I did not really get exploration into what would happen if your important religious beliefs were contradicted by science? How would you deal with it? Would you accept it and move on with still adhering to it or would you question your religious beliefs?
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Your religious beliefs can only be contradicted by science if they were tresspassing onto the domain of science in the first place.
The more interesting question to consider is what is the relationship between these 2 separate domains.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Religion itself has been used in the past to control humans with sets of morals and explain the unexplained (basically part of the function of religion was the “trespass on science”)
Many religions in the past and some today, for example, have differing flood myths that essentially try to make sense of why flooding happened. It looks preposterous to say that the literal cause of floods is because of the gods, but that used to be a serious belief.
The question regarding their relationship is going to differ according to whoever you ask. It is incompatible to some, it can be a complement to others (with faith supporting religion where science fails to give answers like what happens after death).
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Yaani? Not sure I fully understood your comment, SindSagar
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
No comments.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
This is a great quote. And each side may be using this quote to describe the other!
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
1)There is no conflict between creation and revelation and there cannot be because both originate from God. Both have same domain ie one is reality as it is and other explains that reality in language of God.
2)God knows what he has created and he explained it for mankind in his revealed message the way it suited his purpose or the way it is supposed to be understood by mankind. Mankind are caused to be born as babies knowing nothing at all but normally with abilities to learn using their brains, senses and bodies by interacting with whatever is there in this world. This takes time and hard work by people and that is told about in the quran when the quran tells us man is created for struggling or making efforts towards the God set goal.
- As we human beings struggle to make sense of both creation and revelation we make loads of mistakes because that is what is supposed to happen because we are not created fully learned or knowledgeable people. Did we know how to sit up or stand up or lie down etc etc when we were born? No. We made many mistakes when we learned all this and it was a huge struggle for us till we mastered things. We did not do all this in one day. Likewise whatever we do or need to do in this world we must struggle for it to achieve it. Nothing is accomplish by doing nothing at all.
4)If people will read my explanation of things they will see why there is a conflict between people over each and everything. It is because we are all born at different times and in different places and therefore have different life experiences which creates differences in our knowledge of things. Some know more number of things than others and some know more about things than others. It takes time for us to discuss things with each other and exchange ideas and learn from each other. Once we learn things from each other conflicts between us disappear. The problem is some people think they know all there is to be known so there is nothing more to discover or learn. The fact is this universe is full of items we do not have any idea about. we cannot even count them let alone number them. So many kinds of trees, so many kinds of animals, so many kinds of languages among people. So to assume human beings know each and every thing in each and every respect is utterly wrong thing for us to do.
5)Mullahs tell us the quran contains all knowledge about everything but if anyone asks them tell us names of all the messengers God has sent they look at your face. The quran does not tell us names of all the God sent messengers or their dates of births or the places they were born in etc etc. Why not? Because this was not the purpose for revelation of the quran. God’s purpose for sending his revelation for mankind was to guide them in clues and not to fully program them from a to z. Had God done that we will have been fully programmed robots not people with ability to make choices and being able to do what we liked. God set this world the way it suited his purpose and not the way we will like it to be.
6)So if anyone has learned the quran from mullahs in respect of its contextual ideology then one is in deep trouble because mullahs did not learn the needed knowledge to interpret the quran properly. Knowing arabic is not the only thing one needs when one interprets the quran but also knowledge of things the quran talks about. So the question is what does the quran talk about? Have mullahs learned the knowledge about that? The quran talks about the universe and how many mullahs scientists? The quran talks about learning sense and being rational, how many mullahs have learn to talk sense and be rational? The quran talks about human society, what do mullahs know about human society? The quran talks about politics and what do mullahs know about politics? The quran talks about culture, what do mullahs know about culture? The quran talks about economics, what do mullahs know about economics? Likewise the quran talks about many things about which all mullahs, philosophers and scientist etc etc are dumbfounded.
7)Look at mullahs interpretation of 59/21. They tell us it is about, had God revealed the quran on a mountain it will have shattered into pieces. Anyone can place the quran on a table and one will see table will not smash into pieces. This is how foolish mullahs and scientists etc create conflicts between what God says and what God created as a reality out there by their interpretation based upon their ignorance. Scientists just take mullahs’ wrong interpretations of the revelation and attribute this wrong interpretation by mullahs to God as his actual message and that is how they spread confusion among mankind. This is why I blame all people equally for misleading humanity. What people of knowledge are supposed to do is work together and complement each other with their aspects of knowledge so that we could avoid such clear cut confusions.
8)What happens when people create confusions for each other? The truth becomes covered up with falsehood or marginalised and as a results conflicts between human beings increase in their number and intensity and suffering in the world increases and even lives are lost for no good reason at all. So the revelation of God that is supposed to be understood properly and followed faithfully by mankind so that they may struggle properly for creating a blissful, dignified and secure existence for themselves in this world becomes a useless thing for them. This is why people must try and learn what they are trying to avoid if they want unity, peace, progress and prosperity for themselves otherwise conflicts between them will continue for as long as they will continue avoiding to study revelation of God as it is supposed to be understood and followed in light of real world realities.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Southie you know the “kahawat”/ “Kissa” where these three blind men were taken close to an Elephant so they could feel the elephants body…then asked to describe the elephant…
one who touched the trunk said it was like a snake; one who touched the ear said it was a fan; and the one who touched the leg said it was a tree trunk!
or essentially our judgments on issues are dependent on our experiences!
or in another way to you Southie all things are like a World Cup Fantasy Game 
(just joking)
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Ok I understand.
But sometimes we do see things the way they are. That is, earth is not flat and if we see the earth as not flat, we do see things the way they are.
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
Now that is a perfect example, it is uncanny, I was thinking the same but you brought up a perfect example where Scientific minded people, mind you I know Doctors and even Engineers and even some 747 Pilots firmly believe that the Earth is flat and NASA had faked the Moon Landings, they also think that the North Pole is the center of the Earth and the south is the Edge with a huge wall of Ice that keeps the Oceans water from spilling over the edge 
to you and me that sounds so stupid right? but those people will tell you without any hesitancy that you and I are crazy 
So like I said them people see in their own minds that the Earth is flat _____
Re: The Balance of Science and Religion
If you look at the tip of a needle with microscope, top of the tip looks like a playground.
a cemented wall is a plain, is not true for a bacteria or an ant.