[Shakir 109:1] Say: O unbelievers!
[Shakir 109:2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[Shakir 109:3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[Shakir 109:4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[Shakir 109:5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[Shakir 109:6]You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
now thats what i am talking about. why people dont quote these kind of things more often.
I want to make a sign board of this and put it in front of muhkobai's house.
now thats what i am talking about. why people dont quote these kind of things more often.
I want to make a sign board of this and put it in front of muhkobai's house.
For clarification ... that last line is not agreeing with it being okay to have two different religions ... it is a statement that is intended to stop argumentation. That if you still cannot agree after getting the evidence then go your own way and we'll go ours ... and we can live together without getting in to any arguments ... however first we should try to bring reason and wisdom to show what we believe to be the truth.
The existence of something is not evidence of it's creation in the way the religions claim so.
I don't deny that there could be some sort of a creator or something that caused creation of the universe.. I just don't buy all stories of the big man in the sky and his twisted punishment logics and expectations..
It is really good that you acknowledge the clear signs that prove the existence of a creator. And I think it is even better that in recognizing Him, you are not willing to buy what people ascribe to the Him. I feel that if He has given us all these amazing signs around us, along with the ability to think then surely He wishes to be known and can be known. All it requires is a bit of introspection and observance of his creation/signs.
It is really good that you acknowledge the clear signs that prove the existence of a creator. And I think it is even better that in recognizing Him, you are not willing to buy what people ascribe to the Him. I feel that if He has given us all these amazing signs around us, along with the ability to think then surely He wishes to be known and can be known. All it requires is a bit of introspection and observance of his creation/signs.
First line is incorrect.
I don't know what "created" us if anything actually did. But I have no confidence in the fairytales religion propagates.
^ Do you not acknowledge that we have a creator? You said this earlier.
I don't deny that there could be some sort of a creator or something that caused creation of the universe.. I just don't buy all stories of the big man in the sky and his twisted punishment logics and expectations..
You have qualm about the existence of God or you think that He might be there but you do not like how He is presented/explained by others who claim to believe in Him?
^ Do you not acknowledge that we have a creator? You said this earlier.
You have qualm about the existence of God or you think that He might be there but you do not like how He is presented/explained by others who claim to believe in Him?
maybe my phrasing was incorrect.. i said that i cant deny for sure that a creator could exist.. but im not buying the story at all..
and definitely not buying the illogical fairytales many religions propagate..
Ditch the stories. We should rather indulge in the study of the self and the realities around us. That is the ultimate truth.
Thankfully we live in the 21st century and nobody should be able to force any fairytale on you, Insha Allah.
Agreed. I spend a lot more time learning about and appreciating this awesome life, planet and universe as it is. There are so many fascinating REAL things to learn about and encounter..I feel its a much better use of my time than trying to talk to somebody that I don't think is there.. or trying to life my life according to ancient norms.
Cheers to nobody forcing the fairytale on me. Thanks to western secularism.
Agreed. I spend a lot more time learning about and appreciating this awesome life, planet and universe as it is. There are so many fascinating REAL things to learn about and encounter..I feel its a much better use of my time than trying to talk to somebody that I don't think is there.. or trying to life my life according to ancient norms.
To me, this perfect planet and perfection in other millions of creation is an affirmation of a Creator. And His existence is very part of our own inherent instinct. Imam Ali, brother and a student of our Prophet, said that "He who knows himself knows God".
There is nothing as real as your own self for if you are no more than the world around you is no more.
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Cheers to nobody forcing the fairytale on me. Thanks to western secularism.
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Yes it has its good sides but Western secularism and its by products have caused a lot of damage to the world and the humanity as I am sure you are aware of its record.
To me, representatives of God remain the best examples of the good values. Mohammad and his noble family are the best ever examples of tolerance and nobility.
To me, this perfect planet and perfection in other millions of creation is an affirmation of a Creator. And His existence is very part of our own inherent instinct. Imam Ali, brother and a student of our Prophet, said that "He who knows himself knows God".
There is nothing as real as your own self for if you are no more than the world around you is no more.
Yes it has its good sides but Western secularism and its by products have caused a lot of damage to the world and the humanity as I am sure you are aware of its record.
To me, representatives of God remain the best examples of the good values. Mohammad and his noble family are the best ever examples of tolerance and nobility.
That's just how you look at it bro - that everything around us is evidence of a creator. I say that we just don't know, but I am not ruling out there could be a creator. But again all these stories.. these are just stories made by men 1000s of years ago for various reasons. But are just stories.
I don't see how secularism have caused damage. I hope you don't throw Hitler or Stalin at me just because they were not religious, they weren't secular either. Secular countries and societies will always prosper the best going forward. I do have my own problems with western secularism as well (too much immunity to religion imo) but for sure I'm picking it over any one religion dictating how a country is run.
Don’t answer me but ask yourself. Do you believe that the screen in front was created by somebody or you just don’t know?
And if you get time then I would really like you to read this discussion between Imam Sadiq (great grandson of the Prophet Mohammad) and a Hindu physician. It is very long but it is quite relevant to what we have discussed here.
Link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/halila/4.htm
Bro, I owe a great deal to the Western secularism myself but can not deny the fact that the flag bearer of the Western secularism has killed hundreds thousand of innocents in the past decade alone. They believe in a god too and that is called MONEY.
The screen in front of me is made my technology made my humans. There is ample evidence for me to believe that.
This planet is created by a big man hidden away in the sky spying on us and tracking our good and bad deeds so that he can reward or punish us after death… I havent seen a shred of evidence for that hence I won’t believe it.. forget living my life based on it.
I agree that being secular or claiming to be secular doesnt mean the country will never do retarded things. The US has done plenty of retarded stuff and a lot of secular rational Americans will agree with us here. But we must acknowledge that the things they did were not done in the theme of secularism, but for other reasons.. money being one of them as you rightly pointed out. Why blame secularism for that?
On a separate note, I acknowledge and applaud your attitude of respecting everyone’s opinion.
The screen in front of me is made my technology made my humans. There is ample evidence for me to believe that.
This planet is created by a big man hidden away in the sky spying on us and tracking our good and bad deeds so that he can reward or punish us after death.... I havent seen a shred of evidence for that hence I won't believe it.. forget living my life based on it.
That screen is designed and made as a result of human efforts (intellectual and physical- grace of the Creator upon us). And it was the earth that provided each and every raw material that went into making it.
When we see a gadget we know that it must be created. Most likely because we know that a smart design must have a smart creator. Similarly, when we see the world around us full of perfect creatures, all living in harmony with each other, does it not point towards a Creator?
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I agree that being secular or claiming to be secular doesnt mean the country will never do retarded things. The US has done plenty of retarded stuff and a lot of secular rational Americans will agree with us here. But we must acknowledge that the things they did were not done in the theme of secularism, but for other reasons.. money being one of them as you rightly pointed out. Why blame secularism for that?
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hmmm, using the same logic you should not blame Islam/religion for everything done on its name. Try to study the original claim of God upon his creation.
That screen is designed and made as a result of human efforts (intellectual and physical- grace of the Creator upon us). And it was the earth that provided each and every raw material that went into making it.
When we see a gadget we know that it must be created. Most likely because we know that a smart design must have a smart creator. Similarly, when we see the world around us full of perfect creatures, all living in harmony with each other, does it not point towards a Creator?
hmmm, using the same logic you should not blame Islam/religion for everything done on its name. Try to study the original claim of God upon his creation.
Again, we have clear evidence of humans designing and producing computer screens so it's a fact to me and I believe it.. on the other hand a creator designing and monitoring the universe has no clear evidence to me and so I cannot conclude that to be a fact.... besides the existence of some sort of a creator..my bigger beef is with the fairytale stories that were manufactured 1000s of years ago for various reasons.. that control still control decision making today because sooo many people blindly believe them to be actual facts.
On the second comment - the unwarranted US war on iraq is NOT done in the theme of secularism.. but various religious wars like the crusades, jihads, modern islamic terrorism were and are done in the name of religion... so religion gets some blame for that..Please don't take this to mean that I think all religious people are nutjobs.. or that religion should get 100% of the blame... or that only bad stuff can come out of religion.
Again, we have clear evidence of humans designing and producing computer screens so it's a fact to me and I believe it.. on the other hand a creator designing and monitoring the universe has no clear evidence to me and so I cannot conclude that to be a fact....
For the sake of my knowledge, may I ask what kind and level of evidence does it take for you to believe in something to be true for a fact rather than just a possibility?
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On the second comment - the unwarranted US war on iraq is NOT done in the theme of secularism.. but various religious wars like the crusades, jihads, modern islamic terrorism were and are done in the name of religion... so religion gets some blame for that..Please don't take this to mean that I think all religious people are nutjobs.. or that religion should get 100% of the blame... or that only bad stuff can come out of religion.
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Politics interest me but lets not take this discussion towards politics. One comment though- was Iraq and Afghanistan not invaded so democracy and other "great western values" could be gifted to the invading nations? Just like the idea of crusades or early days jihad that was undertaken so the non-believers could be gifted with Iman?
By the way, I do not know if you have noticed, but Quran criticizes Muslims more than it warns Christians and Jews. Throughout the book believers, i.e. the ones who are with the truth, are separated from those who profess but do not practice the divine laws.
For the sake of my knowledge, may I ask what kind and level of evidence does it take for you to believe in something to be true for a fact rather than just a possibility?
Politics interest me but lets not take this discussion towards politics. One comment though- was Iraq and Afghanistan not invaded so democracy and other "great western values" could be gifted to the invading nations? Just like the idea of crusades or early days jihad that was undertaken so the non-believers could be gifted with Iman?
By the way, I do not know if you have noticed, but Quran criticizes Muslims more than it warns Christians and Jews. Throughout the book believers, i.e. the ones who are with the truth, are separated from those who profess but do not practice the divine laws.
Evidence = Evidence. Scientific evidence.
Possible = Cannot be disproven by science but can have a very insignificant chance of being true which should factor in your judgement of how much you want to live your life according to it.
Regarding the Quran.. and other religious books Bible Torah Geeta Mahabharat.. I totally accept that these books have a lot of good moral values and teachings.. but I am talking about the extraordinary fairy tale stories that I reject.
On the Iraq and Afghan war.. no I don't believe for a second that NATO invaded these countries purely in the spirit of bringing democracy.. the reasons varies from counter terrorism, oil greed, to past bitterness etc.. There are dozens of countries battling with civil war, dictatorship and social evils that have not been invaded to bring democracy and western values to them.
Evidence = Evidence. Scientific evidence.
Possible = Cannot be disproven by science but can have a very insignificant chance of being true which should factor in your judgement of how much you want to live your life according to it.
Science is study of the objects in this relative world. Physical objects that have boundaries. The Creator is beyond His creation and not restricted by any of the boundaries that He has created and subjected his creation to. That is how He has introduced Himself through his representatives thus we know or we would never recognized Him.
For scientific evidence to confirm His existence we study God’s creation- the relative world. And the most basic scientific question would be- can matter/energy to come into existence from nothing?
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On the Iraq and Afghan war.. no I don't believe for a second that NATO invaded these countries purely in the spirit of bringing democracy.. the reasons varies from counter terrorism, oil greed, to past bitterness etc.. There are dozens of countries battling with civil war, dictatorship and social evils that have not been invaded to bring democracy and western values to them.
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I think it was German FM who stated clearly on TV why they are in Afghanistan so it is no secret. My point was to point towards the false banners that us, the humans, use to justify our unjust/wrong acts. So a nutjob such as Rumsfeld is same as nut job Wahabhis. One uses ideals of Secularism and the other uses part of Islam for the sake of their own agendas. If you are not willing to blame Western Secularism for the mistakes of the West then you should do the same to Islam.
Science is study of the objects in this relative world. Physical objects that have boundaries. The Creator is beyond His creation and not restricted by any of the boundaries that He has created and subjected his creation to. That is how He has introduced Himself through his representatives thus we know or we would never recognized Him.
For scientific evidence to confirm His existence we study God’s creation- the relative world. And the most basic scientific question would be- can matter/energy to come into existence from nothing?
Bhai you continue to talk about the existence of a creator or something.. ignoring my primary beef with religion which is propagation of fairytale stories as "facts" detailing the exact players and processes involved in the creation.. that's where there is absolutely no evidence of and so many people blindly follow it..
Last comment on the creator.. there could be plenty of possible theories... but none of them can be proven so I don't waste my time with them. But just because this rock exists.. doesnt mean I will believe the incredibly hilarious creation theories that any religion throws at me.
Again, the US wars is NOT in the name of "secularism". They are under the excuse of counter terrorism in some cases, HR intervention in others. Nobody is blabbering on the TV that the soldiers are there to fight for secularism. The jihadis on the other hand are doing it 100% dedicated to their version of Islam.
Bhai you continue to talk about the existence of a creator or something.. ignoring my primary beef with religion which is propagation of fairytale stories as "facts" detailing the exact players and processes involved in the creation.. that's where there is absolutely no evidence of and so many people blindly follow it..
Last comment on the creator.. there could be plenty of possible theories... but none of them can be proven so I don't waste my time with them. But just because this rock exists.. doesnt mean I will believe the incredibly hilarious creation theories that any religion throws at me.
This is a very large topic and one that has divided mankind for long. I feel that if the discussion is to move forward then we must establish some sort of a common platform first. If we more or less agree on a Creator then the discussion could move towards His nature and His claim upon us. Otherwise you will keep calling it all a fairytales and we will hardly move forward.
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Again, the US wars is NOT in the name of "secularism". They are under the excuse of counter terrorism in some cases, HR intervention in others. Nobody is blabbering on the TV that the soldiers are there to fight for secularism. The jihadis on the other hand are doing it 100% dedicated to their version of Islam.
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In my last post I referred to a minister of a European country whose name I am forgetting. He admitting on tele that NATO is primarily in Afghanistan to secure Europe's Economic interests only. Had he said that when the war was starting to take place then both the public and court of law would have condemned their efforts. However they packaged it nicely into the wrap of "human rights", "democracy", and "freedom" so the world could accept it.
Jihadis too similarly use the garb of religion only and it not very difficult to work out how and why. And by the way it is the United States-Saudi (my country of birth) alliance that provides the is the biggest support and patronage to the illegitimate Jihad that takes place on the name of Islam and takes the lives of many innocents (majority of whom are Muslims themselves.
Therefore one must make a clear distinction between religion (which in our view is divine and perfect) and our understanding of religion, which is human, fallible and many times corrupt or used as a garb by the rich and powerful. Westerners are failing to live up to the fundamentals of Western Secularism (specially in their policies abroad) and it is the Muslims who have failed Islam many times, continuously, throughout the history.