Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
i started a thread about it a long time ago. i think this messiah thingie is all bull****. it is a myth. it is a myth because it, or a similar version, is found in all the religions, or atleast the major ones. and all of them proclaim that The ONE will come and make all the people follow their religion. wishful thinking on part of all of them.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
To believe that Hazrat Isa didnt die and will come before Qiyamay is the fundamental belief of Muslims and reaches to us through tawwatur and there is Ijma on this. Anyone who denies this has left the fold of Islam.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
Peace Zero_one
First off ... I agree with hypnotix-2000 that Muhammad (SAW) is a messiah, but I disagree with him in that I also think that Isa (AS) is The Messiah, and I also believe in a second coming.
The title of Messiah is not one that is specific to prophethood. The old testament even calls inanimate things 'messiah'. This and due to another reason that is, when Isa (AS) descends he will not lead the prayer, indicates that his second coming may not be prophetic, but rather as a powerful general and eventually Caliph (sort of) role.
His was the prayer granted that all prophets of Allah (SWT) had made. That they would like to be one from amongst the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW). {This I have not yet substantiated, but i have heard this}. It may be that we still respect him as a prophet. It is the majority opinion that Isa (AS) himself the very one from the time of Peter, John and James, approximately 2 millenia ago will be the one who is back.
Moreover, it is less critical to believe that Isa (AS) will return as a prophet or not, because chronologically he is the second to last prophet on Earth to be born in to the world, however, of course he will be the last one to die. Also, on another important note, we also believe that his mission will not bring new revelation, but only confirm and realign what we have today by putting things in context for us.
And like previously mentioned I am of the opinion that Mahdi and Isa (AS) are two discrete and separate personnages.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
What a weird logic? Another example of so called liberals opening their mouth without thinking
Then according to your logic, everything in Islam should be myth because almost for everything similar versions can be found in all religions
Jews, Hindus, Sikhs have pilgrimage so Haj should be a myth
Fasting is part of Hindus, Christians and Jews so Fasting in Islam should be amyth
Hey what the heck, to believe in One God is part of so many religions, that should be a myth too:naooz:
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
Very well said tariqlkhan.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
First and foremost, this also supported by Holy Quran. I will try to search the Ayah-Mubaraka and share.
To believe that Hazrat Isa didnt die and will come before Qiyamay is the fundamental belief of Muslims and reaches to us through tawwatur and there is Ijma on this. Anyone who denies this has left the fold of Islam.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
By the way guys, some of you might have heard about Professor Ahmed Rafiq Akhtar. He is a retired professor and has a great knowledge about Islam. )If anyone has read Mumtaz Mufti’s Talaash, it has Professor Sahib’s reference). He has some very elaborate lectures on this topic. Check the following links and look for “FITNA-E-AKHAR-UZ-ZAMAN” and “MEHDI MUNTZIR”:
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
u are ruining it more than they are 
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
To believe that Hazrat Isa didnt die and will come before Qiyamay is the fundamental belief of Muslims and reaches to us through tawwatur and there is Ijma on this. Anyone who denies this has left the fold of Islam.
Brother, you are right, there are many hadith about coming of Isa (AS), but even if one ignores hadith and start claiming that to be controversal, no Muslim can ignore Quran.
[Nevertheless, I don’t think that a Muslim would call someone (who claims that they are Muslim) that they left fold of Islam or are not in fold of Islam. For many, it is possible that you could be outside the fold of Islam. All could think that it is only they who are within the fold of Islam, and all others with whom they do not agree are outside the fold of Islam. [/COLOR]
You should know that you are not Allah or can make decision what is right of Allah (only what Allah can decide). If anyone says that they are Muslims, another Muslims have no right to say that they are not. Thus, it is best that to leave this decision on Allah, as it is not your right or duty to call anyone that they are in the fold of Islam or outside the fold of Islam].
Anyhow, coming of Isa (AS) before Qiyamah is clearly mentioned in Quran, and can be proven from Quran, easily. It is also clearly mentioned in Quran that both Jews and Christians [those Nassra that believe that Isa (AS) is son of God (Nauzobillah)] would believe on Isa (AS) before Qiyamah. Believing on Isa (AS) means to believe that Isa (AS) was prophet of Allah, as that is what he was.
Jews believing: Because Jews do not believe (accept) Isa (AS) as Prophet of Allah. Christians believing: Because Christian believes that Isa (AS) is son of God (nauzobillah), though Isa (AS) was just prophet of Allah, as any prophet of Allah.
Allah created Isa (AS) as a test for people, and Allah has also mentioned that in Quran that Isa (AS) is a test. He is test for all human, especially those who believe on Isa (AS) in different ways. Isa (AS) is test because of his special birth, ascending, advent, and prophet hood.
Test for Muslims is that to believe on his coming, as many (who are misguided) might deny that. Test for Jews is obvious, as they should believe him as prophet but they do not. Test of Christians is also obvious, as Christians have taken him as Son of God, but he was not.
Thus, if any Muslim denies the advent of Isa (AS) before Qiyamah, it means he is denying Quran and fails test of Allah, that could lead that person to Jahannum.
Note: We should also know (and it is clear from Quran too) that Isa (AS) did not die but ascended, and thus he will not reborn (he is already born once) but would arrive, as he left this world. Thus, even though Isa (AS) would be Nabi, Isa (AS) would not be ‘New Nabi’, but he would be Nabi that started his Nabuwat before Prophet (SAW). Hence his being Nabi does not mean that Prophet was not last Nabi.
From various Hadiths, it is believed that Isa (AS) declared his prophet hood to Jews at large, at the age of around 29 (though he declared his prophet hood to chosen few just after his birth). Isa (AS) left this world (ascended) at the age of around 33. He would come back as 33 years old. He would live in this world as umatie (follower) of Prophet (SAW), and according to hadith, would die at the age of around 63 (similar to the age of Prophet (SAW) when Prophet (SAW) left this world)..
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
what ever this promised Messaih is...but definately it wasn't the Punjabi Landlord..who conspired with the british and got land from the british . The Guy claimed to the false massaih.....his followers are in Indian and Pakistani Punjab only. After 1973 they migrated to western countries and sought assylum there.
The call themselves Qadyani, Ahmedi and Mirzai now
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
what ever this promised Messaih is...but definately it wasn't the Punjabi Landlord..who conspired with the british and got land from the british . The Guy claimed to the false massaih.....his followers are in Indian and Pakistani Punjab only. After 1973 they migrated to western countries and sought assylum there. The call themselves Qadyani, Ahmedi and Mirzai now
That is 100 pecent true. Well, Isa (AS) never died neither he would be born again. ... Ghulam Mirza ... he could be neither Isa (AS) nor Mehdi (AS), but imposter and that can be proven too :)
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
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Nevertheless, I don’t think that a Muslim would call someone (who claims that they are Muslim) that they left fold of Islam or are not in fold of Islam. For many, it is possible that you could be outside the fold of Islam. All could think that it is only they who are within the fold of Islam, and all others with whom they do not agree are outside the fold of Islam.
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Ok there is Ijma on this. Ijma of Sahabas, Ijma of all the scholars. There are 200+ ahadees that says that Hazrat Isa would come before Qiyamat. If anyone denies this then he is denyhing the words of Prophet s.a.w, and implying that Prophet s.a.w had lied, how can that person be a Muslim?
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You should know that you are not Allah or can make decision what is right of Allah (only what Allah can decide). If anyone says that they are Muslims, another Muslims have no right to say that they are not. Thus, it is best that to leave this decision on Allah, as it is not your right or duty to call anyone that they are in the fold of Islam or outside the fold of Islam].
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Allah has given us the rules in Quran and Sunnah, and using those we can tell who is a Muslim and who is not. Their beliefs will tell that.
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Anyhow, coming of Isa (AS) before Qiyamah is clearly mentioned in Quran, and can be proven from Quran, easily. It is also clearly mentioned in Quran that both Jews and Christians [those Nassra that believe that Isa (AS) is son of God (Nauzobillah)] would believe on Isa (AS) before Qiyamah. Believing on Isa (AS) means to believe that Isa (AS) was prophet of Allah, as that is what he was.
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Now you have said that its mentioned in the Quran, now if anyone denies even one ayat of the Quran, how can he be Muslim?
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Thus, if any Muslim denies the advent of Isa (AS) before Qiyamah, it means he is denying Quran and fails test of Allah, that could lead that person to Jahannum.
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So denying the Quran would be kufar right?
But good post. =)
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
Ok there is Ijma on this. Ijma of Sahabas, Ijma of all the scholars. There are 200+ ahadees that says that Hazrat Isa would come before Qiyamat. If anyone denies this then he is denyhing the words of Prophet s.a.w, and implying that Prophet s.a.w had lied, how can that person be a Muslim?
Allah has given us the rules in Quran and Sunnah, and using those we can tell who is a Muslim and who is not. Their beliefs will tell that.
Now you have said that its mentioned in the Quran, now if anyone denies even one ayat of the Quran, how can he be Muslim?
So denying the Quran would be kufar right?
But good post. =)
Well, Suicide (act of taking own life for whatever reason) is haram in Islam and can be proven from Quran as well as Hadith (as well as from logical arguments with 'basic beliefs' of Islam as hujjat). So, judging by Quran as well as hadith, all who believes that suicide is allowed in Islam are certainly outside the fold of Islam, but still if you will read any of my post, I always wrote that they are misguided and agent of Shaitan, because misguided or agent of Shaitan can still be a Muslim. I don’t call them Kafir (or outside the fold of Islam), because they call themselves Muslims, and thus I do not like to be God to declare them non-Muslim. (Neither I or anyone have any right to do that anyhow).
As for why suicide is haram (every type of suicide, including suicide bombing), there is logical reason for it too and anyone that does suicide, even for military (or whatever) reason, they are certainly people of hell. There could be no excuse to do suicide in Islam. When a person does suicide, that person makes his act of suicide a witness on his disbelief on Allah and witness on himself being unbeliever. (If I will have time, I will try to write with logical proof exactly why this act of suicide in any circumstances, including for achieving war objectives, means disbelief on Allah and why Islam forbid this act - though I hate to write on Islam in this forum). Still, as long as these people who believe on suicide says that they are Muslim (without literally committing suicide) than to call them non-Muslim would be wrong.
As for denying any ayah of Quran: Well, obviously to deny any ayah of Quran would take a person outside the fold of Islam. But then, there is big BUT here. That is, a person would become non-Muslim if that person denies any ayah of Quran knowing that what he is denying is what Quran actually means. If that person is denying something because of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, misguidance, or for whatever reasons other then intentional, then that person would not be outside the fold of Islam.
[Example: If a person says that, yes this is written in Quran but I do not believe it, than that person is not a Muslim. If a person says that, I believe what is written in Quran but my interpretation is this or that, then that person is not outside the fold of Islam. [/COLOR]
As for his neyaat (intentions) of saying a thing, no Muslim can judge that other than Allah (a person neyaat regarding faith is between a person and Allah). A Muslim can only judge other person believes on what he confesses ... says with his mouth. A Muslim cannot assume what other person believes, as only Allah can judge true beliefs of a person (beliefs in heart)].
Similarly, denying anything in hadith would also take a person outside the fold of Islam. Again, there is big BUT here too. That is, denying anything in hadith with belief that particular hadith is really words of Prophet (SAW), than the person would be outsider the fold of Islam. If a person genuinely believes that particular hadith is not true and thus it is not word of Prophet (SAW) but concocted hadith, than that person is not outsider the fold of Islam.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
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Well, Suicide (act of taking own life for whatever reason) is haram in Islam and can be proven from Quran as well as Hadith (as well as from logical arguments with 'basic beliefs' of Islam as hujjat).
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There has always been difference of opinion on this among the scholars, and some scholars consider it a tactic of battle-field. There are examples from the life of Sahabas when they took these kind of actions, which would be labelled suicide. Also usually suicide is done when one is depressed or tired of their life, not the case here. So its not even considered suicide. Other scholars consider it haram. Im sure you know, in the war of 65, Pak army used this to stop Indian tank invasion. But ofcorse no one allowed killing the civilians, be it in the way of suicide or any other way. So as you can see there is difference among the Sunni scholars, and which you hold either view. There is no point in discussing this more, because both sides have their proofs from Sharia.
Please don't deny the fact that there is Ikhtilaaf regarding the permissibility of that which is refered to as a "suicide bombing" in the West. We can't deny Ikhtilaaf on an issue just because it goes against our own opinions, particularly when it isn't as if there is anything even approaching concensus or agreement from the four madhabs regarding an issue. I have been a fair number of contemporary Muslim scholars who have said that such "suicide bombings" (we are talking about the tactic here, NOT the targets) are indeed halal. Off the top of my head, I can think of the late Grand Mufti of Syria, Shaykh Ahmad Kuftaro, Shaykh al Buti al-Shafi(also of Syria), Mufti Zar Wali Khan (Pakistan), Imam Zaid Shakkir (USA) , Mufti Desai ( South Africa) who are authorized to give fatwa according to different madhabs, who believe that "suicide bombings" are indeed halal.
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As for denying any ayah of Quran: Well, obviously to deny any ayah of Quran would take a person outside the fold of Islam. But then, there is big BUT here. That is, a person would become non-Muslim if that person denies any ayah of Quran knowing that what he is denying is what Quran actually means.
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No, ignorance in not an excuse. You can refer to Fath ul Bari of Imam ibn Hajar.
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If that person is denying something because of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, misguidance, or for whatever reasons other then intentional, then that person would not be outside the fold of Islam.
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There is no taweel in the fundamentals of Islam, things that have reached the status of tawatur or there is Ijma of Sahabas on this. Taweel wont save you, and this is the view of all 4 madhabas.
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[Example: If a person says that, yes this is written in Quran but I do not believe it, than that person is not a Muslim. If a person says that, I believe what is written in Quran but my interpretation is this or that, then that person is not outside the fold of Islam. [/COLOR]
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Look above, to intrepret the Quran against the Sahabas, and Ijma of Ummat is kufar.
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As for his neyaat (intentions) of saying a thing, no Muslim can judge that other than Allah (a person neyaat regarding faith is between a person and Allah). A Muslim can only judge other person believes on what he confesses ... says with his mouth. A Muslim cannot assume what other person believes, as only Allah can judge true beliefs of a person (beliefs in heart)].
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In this world we will judge a person from what he says with ihs tongue.
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Similarly, denying anything in hadith would also take a person outside the fold of Islam. Again, there is big BUT here too. That is, denying anything in hadith with belief that particular hadith is really words of Prophet (SAW), than the person would be outsider the fold of Islam. If a person genuinely believes that particular hadith is not true and thus it is not word of Prophet (SAW) but concocted hadith, than that person is not outsider the fold of Islam.
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But 200+ ahadees which reach the status of tawatur cant be fabricted. Thats why its kufar to deny mutawatir ahdees.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
Question:
Are suicide bombings as carried out by Hamas in Palestine permissible, when carried out in public places where civilians are certain to be killed. Do suicide bombers attain shahadah?
Answer:
Life and death are from Allah Ta'ala alone. Allah says in the Noble Qur'an, 'And it is He who gives death and gives life'.
Allah Ta'ala has entrusted man with life and ordered him to look after himself so that he could earn the eternal life. To abuse life or destroy it is against the command of Allah Ta'ala. The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has announced severe warnings for committing suicide. Therefore, if a person is afflicted with any type of personal grief, he must endure it and look for ways to remedy the grief. It is not permissible for him to commit suicide to avail himself from his/her personal grief. However, if a community is oppressed of its basic human rights, it is permissible for them to fight against the oppressors and avail themselves from such oppression. It is permissible for them to engage in Jihaad - risking their lives in the hope of saving themselves from oppression. The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has also praised a person whose army is defeated and bravely faces the enemy. It is obvious in such a situation that a person is walking directly toward the enemy - he is walking toward death. This act of his - despite him actually walking toward death - is praiseworthy according to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). This is not done for personal grief and pain, but in the interest of the Muslim community. Factually, the people of Palestine are the most oppressed people and live in constant fear by the rule of the Jewish oppressors. Due to their extreme frustration and hardships this has led them to behave likewise - to suicide bombings. This is similar to a person returning from the defeated army who bravely approaches the enemy and is killed. Although there is a difference between the two, in that, the former is killed by the enemy and the latter kills himself but the person killed by the enemy virtually killed himself by confronting his enemy in such a defenceless situation - thus allowed to be killed.
Therefore, this is an act of merit and such a person will be a Shaheed. The plot by suicide bombers should be understood in the same light. Assuming the suicide bombing is evil but this evil is opposed by a greater evil for which there is no adequate substitute, therefore, their act will be justified as lesser of the two evils in terms of Islamic Law.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
In Urdu, if you can read, discuss the view of the 4 Imams.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
^^
You know what? I knew that to justify your misguided views and beliefs, you will write million lines of nothing but XYZ :)
Anyhow … I stand on what I wrote and I believe that is where Islam stands: Suicide of any type, including suicide bombing is haram. Actually suicide is a big sin but suicide bombing is not just a sin, it is disbelief on Allah and thus it is not haram, it is also a way of worshiping Shiatan.
Whoever believes that suicide bombing can be justified in Islam, that person is either retard, misguided or agent of Shaitan. If it was Jayez in Islam to call someone Kafir, these people are best candidate for that dishonour. Only reason for not calling them Kafir is because Allah and Prophet (SAW) have tied the mouth of Muslims from calling anyone Kafir who confesses that they are Muslim (unless they are takfeeries … even then it is better to avoid calling them Kafir).
[Note: Takfeeries appeared first time during the Khalafaat of Ali (RA), and they were called Kharjees (not Kafirs). Kharjees use to believe that they were very puritan (as some present day takfeeries - Kharjees believe) … though Kharjees means more or less Kafir, as it is another word for outcast or those that left Islam (got kharij from Islam)].
As for those who die doing suicide bombing, they die worse death than those who do suicide due to personal miseries, that can be easily proven from logical arguments making basic fundamentals of Islam as hujjat (source of proof).
Those who die doing suicide (due to personal miseries), Allah might forgive them, as they failed in their test but not necessary denied Allah.
As for those died doing suicide bombing, they deny Allah as well as they harmed others around them in non-Islamic and illegal way (regardless of their victim being Muslims or Kafirs) and thus, these suicide bombers would surely going to go to hell (100 percent).
In reality, there should be no namaz-e-janazah for suicide bombers, and they should not be buried but their body should be burned and their head should be preserved in museum (forever) for all to see their head as representative of Shaitan and get some lesson (It is duty of an Islamic government to do that, and if I was in power, I would have done that). Actually, Allah has already got that preservation done, by preserving their Shaitanic heads in form of pictures.
Now … whatever taweel or whatever BS understanding of A or B, writings or opinion (fatwa) from A or B you, you would give, that to me is nothing but garbage by misguided or agents of Shaitan :)
If you want to prove, bring One verse from Quran that allows suicide (for whatever reason, including suicide in war situation).
As for hadith, though there are many controversial hadiths and group of Muslims would always be there to reject one hadith or another according to their own set of ulemas ruling (and there are many hadiths that could not stand simple logic), still fortunately, there is not a single hadith that says in clear words that Allah has allowed to take own life for any reason, including during war. Though, even if there was one, it would have got rejected as it would have meant going against the basic fundaments of Islam. (It seems that Shaitaan missed the opportunity, as he could have introduced something during earlier period of Islam and today some of his followers would have been quoting that as hadith :)).
Nevertheless, if you can find even one hadith that says in clear indisputable words coming from any recognized sources, that taking own life for whatever reason (even during war) is allowed, bring me.
As for some of what you posted, if any intelligent person would read them, even from there they would know that suicide bombing is not allowed in Islam. Read them all what you posted carefully and think. ;)
But 200+ ahadees which reach the status of tawatur cant be fabricted. Thats why its kufar to deny mutawatir ahdees.
Give me one reason that they can't (with 100 percent certainty)? Are any person that transmitted them were infallible (or even name used as transmitter has to be true with 100 percent certainty), or that at anytime Shaitan was not in operation and misguiding people to fabricate hadith, or that power that ALlah gave to Shaitan to misguide is limited?
Even during the time of Prophet (SAW) there were rascals that accused Aisha (RA) and Allah has to send Ayah to clear her, why you think that there were not worse rascals after the death of Prophet (SAW) that could have fabricated anything to fulfill their own desires, desires of Shaitan, or whatever to corrupt Islam? Even during the time of Prophet (SAW) there were munafiqs and fitna creators amongst Muslims, so why not after his death?
To me, anything is possible, though with great care I have to accept all hadith that is not contradicting Quran, is logical [as Allah is logical and Prophet (SAW) could not have said anything absurd], or there is no reason to reject them. Even then, most hadiths that does not concern me, I would not like to reject them (unless completely absurd), but would prefer to ignore them, unless they come in the way and misguides basic principle of Islam or start challenging intelligence or becoming cause of contradicting Quran.
Re: The advent of the promissed Messiah/Issah
Ya Khudaya, How/when/why did you guys turn the topic to suicide bombing. Can't we discuss any thread without discussing suicide bombing? Its all getting redundant now. Every thread after 15-20 postings looks the same to me, now