Smooth,
The contradictions in Hadiths doesn't necessarily make 'em invalid. It's your misunderstanding of the contradiction & taking them out of context that does. The same is the case with your understanding of Mirza Sahib's writings.
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*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
You people do. whenever Mirza is caught with his own words, you people defend his contradictory writings with ahadeeths. How dare a Muslim can dig into ahadith to find Nauzobillah mistakes. Only Ahmediz can do this.
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Dear smooth_guy,
Mirza Saheb has not been caught in his own words, nor has prophet Mohammad been caught in his own words, since we know they were gradually revealed about their position and stature. It is YOU who have been caught in your own words! You had first challenged me to bring an example of a prophet denying something and then claiming otherwise. I told you there is nothing wrong in that, and gave you an example as you had mentioned. Now that you've been caught in your own words, you are trying to use words like 'how dare' and 'nauzobillah' to give an emotional touch to the debate, and cover your illogical stance up.
We Ahmedis believe in both the ahadith that I quoted, your muslim brother perplexing has rejected both of them, and found mistakes in them.
I have tried very hard to look for something that could be listed as Mirza's achievement or reason for his claiming as messenger of God or Prophet.. his earliar works were worthy as he tried to pin point blasphemic practices that had crept in muslims of India .what about muslims inthe other parts of the world.. he was praised and respected for those efforts by all ulemas of the time.. but that was also done by mujaddad alf Sani..
The thing I cant comprehend is his claim for prophethood which is not admitted by Ahmadis Lahori group as they say he was only mahdi.. can any ahmadi just list his achievements after his claim of prophethood and not the ones before that were accepted by ulemas of the time.. clearly Mirza's life can be didvided by outsiders like me as one before his claim as meesenger ofg God and receiver of wahi and after that..
Dear Degas,
1- There are different schools of thought in Islam, that make different claims about the Koran and the Prophet. If two groups in Ahmedis are a justification to denounce Mirza Saheb, then 72 groups in Islam can be used for extreme blasphemy! Kindly be careful in your deductions.
2- The very objective of nonlawbearing prophets is to pinpoint the blasphemous practices that have crept into the law that he has come to support. You can not disagree that blasphemous practices really have crept into Islam today, and that solely is the reason why the 'Messiah', may it be Jesus or Mirza Saheb, had to come.
3- Mirza Saheb's works have helped muslims rediscover Islam. Although a larger part of these achievments was from before his final claim of prophethood, the effects of his teachings on Islam have only manifested themselves in public opinion just before his death i.e. just after his claim to prophethood, and have brought a major change in the way muslims take religion in the hundred years after his death.
4- Although the Ahmadiyya Community in itself is a great achievement, you can not deny the deep effects of his teachings on the Muslim community of the world. How many people, for example, before Mirza Saheb, were there to claim the death of prophet Jesus. Look on the internet today, and you will find out that a large party within the orthodox Islam now believes in the death of prophet Jesus. The views on Jihad, on the punishment of apostacy, on Rajm, on Pardah, and many other social issues, the views on the philosophy of Islam and the philosophy of worship, the views on all contemporary issues have been majorly influenced by Mirza Saheb. In Pakistan, their are coursebooks that copy pages after pages of Mirza Saheb's writings. Beyond doubt, it is him who has laid the foundation of progressive thought in Islam.
Degas,
Define what you consider a prophet's achievements? And how do you gauge it? By the new laws he brought down? Or by the number of people he converted? How wealthy he was or how many cities he conquered? And please give some examples. For example, Jesus (as) converted whole of Jerushelem when he died, so what did Mirza Sahib do?! Moses (as) crossed the desert, did Mirza Sahib? Noah built a ship .. so on and so forth.
To me the fact the he has fervent followers who have embraced persistent persecution from all over and still have maintained steadfast, and continue to grow as a remarkable achievement.
Paaga| |nsaan
The achievements u have doted dont need a prophet or messenger from God! There are so many others including Mujjad Alf Thani who did the same services... no one denies Mirza's contribution but problem is with his later life claims like millions of miracles, comparing with other prophets, claiming himself one.. some persons have even claimed themselves as God after too much reaserch and study..
Ahmadji
From ur perception Guru Nanak was persecuted too and has a fervent following.. the persecution and resistance always bear sympathy.. Today Islam is recognized by Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Chriatianity as Jesus (AS) - both gigantic religions.. There is no comparison to these two great messengers of God.. and it seems ur trying to compare Mirza and try to compare achievements of those two with Mirza Shaib? Muslims know that following Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) we can survive at day of judgement ..if u think we cant by not following Mirza then its ur choice.. with Quran and sunnah I dont believe we need any otther personality to follow.. I have a very good friend back home who is qadiani and the way he looked at Mirza portrait before starting anything told me a lot..
.. with Quran and sunnah I dont believe we need any otther personality to follow
Degas yar, I asked a very simple question but I guess you didn't have an answer. Let me ask another straight one; In the other thread you said you believe in Jesus's (as) return. If you are true in your claim, and he returns from heaven tonight, please tell me would Quran and Sunnah be not enough for you anymore?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
.. with Quran and sunnah I dont believe we need any otther personality to follow
Degas yar, I asked a very simple question but I guess you didn't have an answer. Let me ask another straight one; In the other thread you said you believe in Jesus's (as) return. If you are true in your claim, and he returns from heaven tonight, please tell me would Quran and Sunnah be not enough for you anymore?
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And now ur twisting the words.. I dont think u know or want to know what mainstream muslims believe in thsi issue.. Jesus (AS) will come as follower of Muhammad (PBUH) Jesus (AS) is a messenger of God.. but in our daily lives as muslims we dont need any personality at all.. I dont care if he comes today or million years from now.. I dont care at all about this issue as its not a fundamental faith element for muslims.. but it may be surviving factor for someone whose whole base depends upon Jesus's not coming.. my life has no problem with this Mahdi issue.. as Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is enough.. U are full right to follow any other prophet other than Muhammad (PBUH) ..
Degas,
Jesus (AS) will come as follower of Muhammad (PBUH) Jesus (AS) is a messenger of God
Then why you have a problem when Mirza Sahib (as) claims the same that he brought nothing new and follow Muhammad (saw)?
Just so you know, your statement implies that there is no need for Jesus to come back. As his coming back doesn't make any difference to you now or a million years from now. In other words you are saying that God saved this soul for 2000 years and for you his coming back is worthless. Naozobillah!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Degas,
Jesus (AS) will come as follower of Muhammad (PBUH) Jesus (AS) is a messenger of God
Then why you have a problem when Mirza Sahib (as) claims the same that he brought nothing new and follow Muhammad (saw)?
Just so you know, your statement implies that there is no need for Jesus to come back. As his coming back doesn't make any difference to you now or a million years from now. In other words you are saying that God saved this soul for 2000 years and for you his coming back is worthless. Naozobillah!
[/QUOTE]
First of all I cant imagine thinking Mirza to be of trillionth part in respect to Jesus (AS).. how can we compare Jesus (AS) with Mirza? Just look up Quran.. status gicen to Jesus (AS) and Maryam .. where is Mirza? If Allah say Jesus (AS) will come back as ummati of Rasool (PBUH) then why we object or pose question.. Prophethood of Jesus (PBUH) is well settled by Allah in Quran but Mirza Sahibls claims are his very own and always surprise me as he never stops at one thing.. calls himself Mahdi, messenger of God, just like Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).. never in the history of mankind even any prophet of Allah compared himself with previous mesengers.. but in all of Mirza's writing he compares his virtues and rutbas with all previous messengers..
I said it has nothing to do with being a muslim if mahdi comes or not.. their lives are fulfilled with Quran and sunnah and if urs is not follow Mirza!!! I havenever problem with anyone following Mirza Qadian or Mahdi of Sudan..
Degas, make up your mind.
First you say list down achievements of Mirza Sahib as he claims to be a prophet. So I ask give me an example of what kind of achievements you are looking for. But you insist there is no comparison and so you can’t list down anything. But why ask for achievements in the first place?
And Mirza Sahib claimed to be an Umati prophet, and him being an Umati himself makes him truthful in his claim. Jesus (as) was from the uma’at of Harzat Musa (as), and he has been called a prophet of Bani-Israel in Quran. So how can he be an Umati Nabi of Muslims? Maybe you can show me that in Qura’an?
Lastly, if you argument is that as there is no mention of Mirza Sahib in Qura’an and so, we can’t believe in him, then maybe you can point out the name of Jesus in the Old Testament, let alone the other 124000 true prophets that came to this world. If you don’t know, Jesus (as) was questioned in a similar manner. Jews used to taunt him that if he is not here to give us a new law (other than the 10 commandments) then why is he here to begin with! There is no need for him and they are fine with what is revealed.
True is the prophecy of AnHazoor :saw: that his Ummah will be just like the Ummah of Moses, as if they are pair of the same shoe.
what about four books sent by Allah's .. including bible.. u seem to be bent upon declaring Mirza as equalent to Jesus (AS).. Jesus (AS) started an era that ended till Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came.. so what do Mirza signify?
Interesingly I have always read ur comments about desending of Jesus (AS) since u put them in mock words.. Jesus (AS) who made dead alive by Allah's power cannot himself live in any state Allah wants! Just to justify Mirza's claims ur mocking the great Messenger of allah jesus (AS) all the time..
^kuffar asked Prophet :saw: for such miracles.. like Moses’ staff and other miracles.. Did Prophet :saw: show them those miracles??
what about four books sent by Allah’s .. including bible.. u seem to be bent upon declaring Mirza as equalent to Jesus (AS).. Jesus (AS) started an era that ended till Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came.. so what do Mirza signify?
Mirza Sahib signifies the prophesized era of the Islam’s glory, where Islam will over come all other religions and establish one religion on God’s earth.
Obviously, you are going to ask, well it hasn’t happened. So, let me remind you that it was after 300 years of the first Messiah (Jesus :as: ) that the Christianity trumped as the dominant religion. Mirza Sahib proclaimed that Islam and believers of AnHazoor (saw) would triumph within the first three centuries after him. And only his followers will be the ones who will bring about this change. While others will wage wars and nations will loot each other. It will be his jama’at that will peacefully keep on calling all the nations of this world towards Allah, as it’s the believers of the Messiah of AnHazoor :saw: that are destined to win.
And it’s your preconceived notions and prejudice against Ahmadis that make you think that all the statements I make are mocking you.
On a side note: I do not believe that Jesus (as) brought back people from the dead physically as it’s against the very teachings of Quran that says that we are given only one chance. He brought back people to life who were dead spiritually and gave them the eternal spiritual blessings. Many Christians use to question AnHazoor (saw) that if you are such a great prophet then why doesn’t you bring back to life the dead like our master Jesus did.
Reference plz…
BTW Propeht :saw: himself had lots of Miracles by the grace of Allah.
The Quran is the biggest Miracle, so its scientific accuracy.
http://www.bensys.mcmail.com/Islam.htm
Some miracles had to do with the unseen ,as when Isa told his people about what they had eaten; others were supernatural, as when the fire the unbelievers wanted to burn Ibrahim with, turned to be cold and peaceful instead.
It is worth noting that the all miracles the prophets were aided before Muhammad(p.) were addressed to a certain people in a certain time and under given circumstances. It was only natural that they would end and could only be heard about at a later stage. But this is not the case with Muhammad’s (p.) immortal and ever lasting miracle, the Holy Quran, that challenged the Arab’s eloquence.
What characterizes Muhammad’s call is that his miracle is immortal as well as accessible to any researcher and truth seeker in any time and place..
Humanity had reached such a stage in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) time that those earliar miracles were not needed to convince people.. Quran in itself is a great miracle.. logically conveying Allah’s message was far better than superhuman miracles.. its another thaing that amazes me that after Mirza Sahib always boasted about millions of miracles he supposedly performed in this age.. can u elaborate a bit more about Mirza’s miracles here?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
Humanity had reached such a stage in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) time that those earliar miracles were not needed to convince people.. Quran in itself is a great miracle.. logically conveying Allah's message was far better than superhuman miracles.. its another thaing that amazes me that after Mirza Sahib always boasted about millions of miracles he supposedly performed in this age.. can u elaborate a bit more about Mirza's miracles here?
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and you say here..
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logically conveying Allah's message was far better then superhuman miracles
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here is your reply^^^^
repeat #3
mirza’s slam dunk in the toilet was an achievement on its own…
i dont know of any other person who has done that…
and i am sure he got full points for that too 
mods quit playing games with me will ya…
**I am afraid no one is “playing games” here. My reason for removing your posts in the past two occasions has been that I perceive it as less of an opportunity to contribute towards a meaningful discussion, and more along the lines of an insulting remark. If you have a problem with this, please feel free to PM me.
Regards,
–Samarra.**
it could be that my post was deleted.
I again post here the link, where I uplaoded the ORIGINAL page from Siratul Mahdi to proof that Hz Masih Maood :as: DIDNT DIE in the toilet.!
http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108237&pagenumber=4
The post is 2nd last one on this page.