---- While some anti-West factors "external" to the "establishments" in Pak and India want to start a war. Why it is so hard to believe?
Its not hard to believe - its the jihadi lobby inside Pak which is opposed to any kind of peace initiative. You can call it army, ISI, LeT, JeM or a combination of all of these.
Absolutely .[believe in dialogue].. on a personal level too ... what am i doing here :D
Well in that case we all need to do a better job in setting up the right environment and say the right things.
Let me give you an example.
The dialogue between two countries is similar to the product sharing etc. dialogue between two companies.
If you were working for company A, and your company is ready for dialogue with company B.
Then you do not accuse company B's board member(s) for sabotage until all the doors are closed on the negotiations.
I hope you understand this fine aspect of negotiation.
Thanks.
Well in that case we all need to do a better job in setting up the right environment and say the right things.
Let me give you an example.
The dialogue between two countries is similar to the product sharing etc. dialogue between two companies.
If you were working for company A, and your company is ready for dialogue with company B.
Then you do not accuse company B's board member(s) for sabotage until all the doors are closed on the negotiations.
I hope you understand this fine aspect of negotiation.
Thanks.
Very true .... but as a responsible member of Comapny A you will be a fool and taken to task by the shareholders if you ignore "repeated" sabotage by people operating from within Company B . Remember You fool me once ... shame on you, you fool me twice shame on me.
I firmly belive that Pakistanis, in general, want peace with India perhaps more then Indians themselves and it is only through engagment that that is going to happen.
Re: Terror Strike in Pune
I don't believe in dialogue with Pakistan for following reasons:
1) they don't have any truly authorized entity to dialogue with. The legislature, executive, presidency, military and court play paper-scissor-stone game to undo each other
2) each administration changes law including constitution with retrospective effect - how do you trust anything these guys say under that circumstance
3) Pakistan always tries to bring up Kashmir as an issue, instead of recognizing Kashmir as Indian territory. This is a non-starter since it is apparent that the only reason Pakistan wants dialogue is to see if they can take a peace of our country.
In summary - forget about it.
Absolutely right :k:
India realizes that and has even proposed keeping Kashmir as status quo and having dialogue on other things. Atleast we can make some progress on sporting, cultural, economic ties without the Kashmir issue tied to everything.
However, Pak’s insistence on bringing in Kashmir means that any dialogue is a non-starter.
Very true .... but as a responsible member of Comapny A you will be a fool and taken to task by the shareholders if you ignore "repeated" sabotage by people operating from within Company B .
but then you DO NOT engage in further engagements with company B (PERIOD).
**
You CANNOT be in negotiations AND accusations against the directors of company B.
**
...... I firmly belive that Pakistanis, in general, want peace with India perhaps more then Indians themselves and it is only through engagment that that is going to happen.
If you have firm belief, then you it will be wasted until you stop accusing the other party and especially its board of directors.
There are certain negative things that you never bring out in the open, WhILE negotiations are ON.
And you only air the dirty laundry when you have decided to NOT plan a product sharing with the company B.
These are some very basic principles of engagement, that are applicable to individuals, companies, and countries.
but then you DO NOT engage in further engagements with company B (PERIOD).
*You CANNOT be in negotiations AND accusations against the directors of company B. *.
I would say it is your lack of real world knowledge that is responsible for your not understanding the concept.
US and China are both partners and having "engagements" ... but they accuse each other from time to time .... let Dalai Lama meet Obama and you will see more accusations.
If you have firm belief, then you it will be wasted until you stop accusing the other party and especially its board of directors. There are certain negative things that you never bring out in the open, WhILE negotiations are ON. And you only air the dirty laundry when you have decided to NOT plan a product sharing with the company B. These are some very basic principles of engagement, that are applicable to individuals, companies, and countries.
The other party has to realize that you cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds .... if internationally recognised groups like Lashkar e Toiba can transform into Jamat ul Dawa and then again indulge in terror activites ....... what message does it send to the "other party".
I would say it is your lack of real world knowledge that is responsible for your not understanding the concept. US and China are both partners and having "engagements" ... but they accuse each other from time to time .... let Dalai Lama meet Obama and you will see more accusations....
Yeah they can spar over petty issues like Dali lama.
But CHINA is not accusing Pentagon and CIA for destroying Chinese property. Because that is in itself ACT of WAR.
Got it?
Indian educated elite do not understand the finer aspects of mutual relations.
You guys can have all the difference with Pak,
But DO NoT accuse Pak army or ISI or other BIG governmental institutions (even if you suspect it). That is childish if not downright $tupid.
Because if you do, then there is no room left for negotiations.
China Accuses U.S. of Cyberwarfare | Threat Level | Wired.com
http://free-tibet.tribe.net/thread/23fb7d9b-c600-463f-b786-34e1d3211ad2 
India has accused LET of the act … not the Pakistani government. But it asks Pakistani government to reign in these elements which the state of Pakistan is not doing. That is the issue here.
ab bhai,
Did you read the full news before posting the links?
Guess not!
Bhai, This news is about cybe-rwar AGAINST IRAN (and not China)
This news is about CIA+INDIA+dalai lama from years and years ago like 1950s.
See bhai. Googling is only first step. Reading and understanding the googled stuff takes effort.
However you are so biased against Pakistan, that no amount of info will help you.
Best wishes.
Your point was …
You CANNOT be in negotiations AND accusations against the directors of company B
And as i mentioned in my previous posts … US and China accuse each other but still talk or negotiate … India and Pakistan is same … while accustaions are made … talk can happen as that is the only way progress is made.
Again a snapshot … China accusing US navy of spying … accusations but negotations going on … China accuses US navy of spying … it is fresh incident … 2009 and is related to China directly !!!
Yeah they can spar over petty issues like Dali lama.
But CHINA is not accusing Pentagon and CIA for destroying Chinese property. Because that is in itself ACT of WAR.
Got it?
Indian educated elite do not understand the finer aspects of mutual relations.
You guys can have all the difference with Pak,
But DO NoT accuse Pak army or ISI or other BIG governmental institutions (even if you suspect it). That is childish if not downright $tupid.
Because if you do, then there is no room left for negotiations.
if you listen to most respected journalist on taliban issue Ahmed rashid. Pakistan's army and ISI has elements more taliban than taliban themselves and have always trained and nurtured the jihadis. I disagree with this view that army and ISI is not involved in jihadi terrorism..in fact this terrorism that you see in south asia is an illegitimate child of pakistan's army and united states..
if you listen to most respected journalist on taliban issue Ahmed rashid. Pakistan's army and ISI has elements more taliban than taliban themselves and have always trained and nurtured the jihadis. I disagree with this view that army and ISI is not involved in jihadi terrorism. ..
Ahmad Rashid is well respected guy, no doubt about it.
However I'd be careful about quoting him in this thread on Pune blast. Hope you agree with this.
........
.in fact this terrorism that you see in south asia is an illegitimate child of pakistan's army and united states..
Indians have every right to be angry, especially after the Bombay massacre.
But if you take that horrible incident and start applying it to every situation, then there is no hope for peace in the subcontinent.
Using emotional outbursts and terms such as "illegitimate children" only makes the matters worse.
Nations and groups come together to solve "immediate" problems. Taliban are no robots. They too combine and cooperate with certain entities just like Indians and and Tibetans.
Once the "immediate" problem is over, it is anybody's guess as to how the post-problem alliances will be formed.
Taliban too had alliances with USA and Pakistan but they were no KIDS back then. It was Taliban who broke off alliances with Pak and USA. And instead opted to form alliances with Wahabi Arabs and Uzbeks etc. Not only that, they started attacking and killing their former colleagues aka Pak and USA.
Such is the reality of alliances.
India too formed close alliance with Commies. Should we then blame Indians for all the ill that commies spread in the world? Obviously no!
Thus we must focus in this case on the peace between Pak and India.
Let Ahmad Rashid who is a Pakistani, to point out issues with Pak policies.
And let the Indian version of Ahmad Rashid point out issues with Indian policies.
Unless both sides find their own faults, and consider themselves human and thus prone to mistakes, we can't have negotiations.
Because negotiations never happen between humans and angels. Unless we are reading a mythology.
Indians have every right to be angry, especially after the Bombay massacre.
But if you take that horrible incident and start applying it to every situation, then there is no hope for peace in the subcontinent.
Using emotional outbursts and terms such as "illegitimate children" only makes the matters worse. .
And where did you get that impression that India is applying Mumbai massacare to every incident ?
There have been a number of incidents in India after Mumbai attacks especially Maoist attacks, India is not calling on Pakistan to reign in the maoists !!!! This Pune incident has similar background and relation to Mumbai attacks and that is the reason India is pointing fingers at Pakistan based groups.
On the question of Taliban , well how come top Taliban was leader was held in Karachi ..... i mean he had to feel safe enough to be present in Karachi, ever think about that !!!!!!
Here it is. Mumbai will again come up in the meeting to be held in near future.
DAWN.COM | World | India to raise Mumbai attacks issue at talks
Bhai,
Just pick up the map at the local library, or better yet, Google has excellent maps of the world ONLINE.
Check out the subcontinent or at least refresh your geography knowledge.
You will realize that Afghanistan cannot get a single nail, unless it comes to Karachi first and then shipped overland to Kabul or Kandahar.
Sure you could fly in the nail, but that will be one heck of an expensive nail.
With 1000s of trucks driven daily between Karachi and Afghan border at Quetta and Khyber, it is really easy for a bearded guy to wear a big headgrear and change his appearance and mingle among 170 million Pakistanis.
So in Karachi, you will find everyone from Americans, to Afghans to Iranis and the list goes on. 95% of NATO supplies go the same route, as every other Afghan import/export.
Then we do have local turncoats like Jamat Islami who are more than willing to hide some of these Talib Mullahs.
But if you want to use bunch of Talib criminals to support your theories, then May Bhagwan bless you.
And oh btw, if you catch an LET criminal in Pune tomorrow, then use the same standard, and blame Indian RAW for the presence of Talibs in India.
OK.
Of course Mumabi will be discussed with Pakistan … as far as India is concerned right now that is perhaps the only topic to discuss. India is not going to dicuss Telangana with Pakistan
If you want to buy that be my guest … but this guy was not in Karachi to buy nails or take a boat. He was in Karachi becuase he felt safe being in Karachi …and as you “claim” Jamat Islami may have supported this criminal, Well that is precisely what India has been asking of Pakistan. There are elements in Pakistan that are supporting terrorists that indulge in terror activites outside the boundaries of Pakistan. So they need to act agaionst these people. Once Jamat Islami realises that Pakistani government is not going to allow this nonsense they will refrain. For the time being it looks like that is not happening, though in last few days there has been a change. After this Talibs arrest, Siraj Haqqani has been hit … now this is improtant … he would have not been hit without coopertation of Pakistanis and this is a welcome sign.
And an update … it seems it is raining Talibs in Karachi … http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\02\19\story_19-2-2010_pg1_2 … Biradar was not the only one “nailed”
Its your responsibitly to protect your citizens.
stop crying like a baby and stop pointing fingers at others.
If you can’t protect your citizens then choose other profession…tell that to your sissy-RAW.
Its your responsibitly to protect your citizens. stop crying like a baby and stop pointing fingers at others. If you can't protect your citizens then choose other profession...........tell that to your sissy-RAW.
So that means you are okay, if Indians launch a missile strike against Dawood Ibrahim living in Karachi or LET jihadis holding a jihadi agenda meeting in muridke.
So that means you are okay, if Indians launch a missile strike against Dawood Ibrahim living in Karachi or LET jihadis holding a jihadi agenda meeting in muridke.
CAlm down Yamaha.
don't you realize that Indians would have launched strikes if they could?
Reality is that Indian generals (and their Pakistani counterparts) are a lot more cool headed compared to the high school gangland mentality of the youth in the two countries.
Remember that both Indian and Pakistani generals come from the same stock, and from the same historical training of British Indian Army, and before that from the armies of Mogals.
With that kind of background, no Pak general would do terrorist act in Bombay or Pune. Yes they will do a fair fight in Kashmir because it is disputed. But not Pune, Not Dilli, Not Bombay.
Similarly no Indian general in his right mind would be thinking to strike Karachi or Muridke.
Reason!
Pak and Indian generals are no depots like some generalisimos from Iraq, Iran or some other Gad awful dung heaps of middle East or Africa.
Unlike many key board warriors from the Indian South and East like yourself, these generals come from the same geographical area of North West of the subcontinent. And they love and cherish the land of their ancestors.
Many Indian generals love to visit and soak in the air of Pindi, Gujrat, Sahiwal, Chakwal, Gujranwala, Kasoor, etc. etc.
It is thanks to these generals, that Pak and India haven't turned into a burned up pile of ashes.
And the way the key board warrirors from the two countries talk, may be such generals are dying bread. Who knows 50 years from now, these generals will be gone, and Indo Pak may turn each other into a burning pile.
Who knows!
Pak and Indian generals are no depots like some generalisimos from Iraq, Iran or some other Gad awful dung heaps of middle East or Africa. !
Perhaps a lesson on military desposts in the region is in order ... Big B :D