ravage bhai 
this has always been a debated issue in shariah isnât it? do u know that the Supreme court of pakistan has decreed that baligh girls can now get married on their own accord without the requirement of a waliâĶpersonally i think an adult woman should have the right to choose her spouse 
dontcha think?
Sheraz bhai 
:halo:
[quote]
2ndly mutah does not just mean to have sex...i know couples who got engaged and did mutah..this way they can get to know each other better..again this doesnt mean physically
[/quote]
confused
i am just trying to understand this. Please. No one get angry with me.
In what ways would the couple NOT be able to get to know each other better if they didn't have muta? i mean, millions of couples must get engaged, NOT have muta done, but they still get to know each other right. So what advantages does muta offer, comparatively, that a non-muta couple wouldn't have?
[quote]
3rd if a woman wants to go to hajj and doesnt have any mehram person to go with her..she can do a mutah with someone and take him with her..again the intention is not sex or a physical relation but this way it would save her from sin by having a non mehram company with her
[/quote]
Couldn't she go in a group though, or take her son with her, or an uncle, or just go in a group full of Muslim ladies. Delegations leave annually during the time of Hajj from almost every country - why couldn't an unmarried lady join one of these delegations and go with them to perform her Hajj. Wouldn't that be perfectly legitimate from an Islamic pov? That takes care of needing to have mutah done with someone.
Anyhow, i don't know much about this issue. i don't want to offend anyone, i mean it - no one get mad at me. i had someone ask me to do mutah with them and to be honest, i find the idea quite aberrant. Agar seedha seedha shaadi karni hai, then go for the nikkah. But this mutah thing seems to be somewhere in between...neither nikkah, and neither completely single either. From a rational perspective, i think it leaves a vacuum. What's the rationale behind it (except what i think it is which i don't feel comfortable saying)? Sounds like there is no rationale behind it.
Not that i'm an expert, but that's my opinion and i think i'm entitled to it so no one get mad.
hello irem,
Iâm not aware of it being a debated issue in shariah. As far as I know, and this isnt based on anything but talk and debates, according to sunni thought, court marriages have never been questionable from a shariah point of view, and the reaction to them was merely cultural, which the supreme court has now decreed illegal, according to shariah.
i may be completely in the wrong here though.
now regarding if the adult woman should have the right to choose her spouse, I completely agree. But there are specific guidelines to ensure that right. Potential couples are encouraged to meet once (or atleast see each other?). Parents are strictly required to defer to their daughterâs opinion, if she voices one against the match.
Dont you think though, that there should be some requirement that the parents have some say in whom the daughter marries? I believe the legal age for marriage is 16? How immature are you when youâre that age? And even this age isnt based on Islam AFAIK. The legal age for a muslim age to marry, according to sharia, is 8 (?) years. Should the girl be solely responsible for choosing her match at that age then..?
i think u r right
true
Iâm not really knowledgeable abt the Islamic point of view regarding this. Personally, I donât think marriage should be without the consent of parents, period â for the guy or the girl, specially for the girl.
But then again I have seen some cases of very good Muslim brothers, not any sisters yet, getting married without consent of one set of parents. Like the typical Sindhi/Punjabi Punjabi/Pathan marriages where the guyâs parents completely refused to allow their son to marry outside ethnicity and technically there was no such fault in the girl, the girl and guy were both adults, and the guy still went ahead with the marriageâĶI think this is still not 100% right for the guy but not completely wrong either. I think parents should be a bit flexible in this situation.
For girls though, I think she should have parental consent. However, Iâve seen cases in rural areas or lower income classes in the cities where the girl is living with a cruel stepmother and her father is a drug addict or something and they arrange her marriage with a total bum just for the sake of getting her married off. What abt such cases?
Hmmm I think she can marry out of her own accord after she is baaligh, so 8 is below that ageâĶbut r u serious? the legal minimum age for a muslim to marry is 8? 
danggggggggggg
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
confused
i am just trying to understand this. Please. No one get angry with me.
In what ways would the couple NOT be able to get to know each other better if they didn't have muta? i mean, millions of couples must get engaged, NOT have muta done, but they still get to know each other right. So what advantages does muta offer, comparatively, that a non-muta couple wouldn't have?
Couldn't she go in a group though, or take her son with her, or an uncle, or just go in a group full of Muslim ladies. Delegations leave annually during the time of Hajj from almost every country - why couldn't an unmarried lady join one of these delegations and go with them to perform her Hajj. Wouldn't that be perfectly legitimate from an Islamic pov? That takes care of needing to have mutah done with someone.
Anyhow, i don't know much about this issue. i don't want to offend anyone, i mean it - no one get mad at me. i had someone ask me to do mutah with them and to be honest, i find the idea quite aberrant. Agar seedha seedha shaadi karni hai, then go for the nikkah. But this mutah thing seems to be somewhere in between...neither nikkah, and neither completely single either. From a rational perspective, i think it leaves a vacuum. What's the rationale behind it (except what i think it is which i don't feel comfortable saying)? Sounds like there is no rationale behind it.
Not that i'm an expert, but that's my opinion and i think i'm entitled to it so no one get mad.
[/QUOTE]
Well as far as my knowledge is concerned , shias think ITS SAWAB TO DO MUTAH.
AstagfirUllah
My Shia friends tell me that educated shias don't do this
Mutah anymore. And It is only allowed with Widows.
But when they were explaining to me , I could sense that
they were saying jhoot.
They read some SAGHIAS , Don't know what that is.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
confused
i am just trying to understand this. Please. No one get angry with me.
In what ways would the couple NOT be able to get to know each other better if they didn't have muta? i mean, millions of couples must get engaged, NOT have muta done, but they still get to know each other right. So what advantages does muta offer, comparatively, that a non-muta couple wouldn't have?
Couldn't she go in a group though, or take her son with her, or an uncle, or just go in a group full of Muslim ladies. Delegations leave annually during the time of Hajj from almost every country - why couldn't an unmarried lady join one of these delegations and go with them to perform her Hajj. Wouldn't that be perfectly legitimate from an Islamic pov? That takes care of needing to have mutah done with someone.
Anyhow, i don't know much about this issue. i don't want to offend anyone, i mean it - no one get mad at me. i had someone ask me to do mutah with them and to be honest, i find the idea quite aberrant. Agar seedha seedha shaadi karni hai, then go for the nikkah. But this mutah thing seems to be somewhere in between...neither nikkah, and neither completely single either. From a rational perspective, i think it leaves a vacuum. What's the rationale behind it (except what i think it is which i don't feel comfortable saying)? Sounds like there is no rationale behind it.
Not that i'm an expert, but that's my opinion and i think i'm entitled to it so no one get mad.
[/QUOTE]
Nadia,
I guess its more of a matter of perspective than anything else.
For a christian, having relations with your maid would be inadmissable too. But (probably) all sects agree that it isnt islamically questionable.
I'd like someone to tell me how the above is better than muta.
Bear in mind that muta does have notions of iddat (period before one can remarry) and child support and heredity.
Bottom line, we believe, and there is evidence of this in Bukhari/Tirmidhi (which i can provide thankfully for google and USC-MSA) that Muta was something allowed during the prophets lifetime, and only disallowed by the second caliph. Since we do not hold his authority stronger than that of the prophet, we do not consider it islamically illegal.
heres my take on it. if there is a problem in one thing, you address that, instead of changing another thing to fix it. If the parents are acting unreasonably, and are acting against the wishes of their daughter, then you address that. You wouldnt give the other more rights instead.
here, the islamic laws would concern/address the parents, and not the daughter.
i could give you many instances of where any islamic law, accepted by both sunnis and shias, is abused.
i think its 8. Or thereabouts. definitely less than 12. consider the age at which hazrat ayesha was married.
well, these people do some other acts that are disgusting too.
That I don't even want to mention.
irem, from my understanding, the Hanafi fiqh permits a virgin woman to get married without making it obligatory for her wali to consent to it, whereas the Maliki, Shafi and Hanbali fiqhs forbid this.
It is because of the Hanafi view that the Pakistani Supreme Court rules such marriages valid. I also believe, though I may be wrong, that the Jafaari fiqh holds the same view as the Hanafi on this matter.
Which is not surprising, given that Imam Abu Hanafi was a student of Imam Jafaar.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
irem, from my understanding, the Hanafi fiqh permits a virgin woman to get married without making it obligatory for her wali to consent to it, whereas the Maliki, Shafi and Hanbali fiqhs forbid this.
It is because of the Hanafi view that the Pakistani Supreme Court rules such marriages valid. I also believe, though I may be wrong, that the Jafaari fiqh holds the same view as the Hanafi on this matter.
Which is not surprising, given that Imam Abu Hanafi was a student of Imam Jafaar.
[/QUOTE]
it is not permitted, in the jafari fiqh, ms.
shia perspective i found reasonably exhaustive (and exhausting :)) that lists/answers sunni questions.
edit: ofcourse the link i forgot to add 
i have already wasted alot of time explaining this in the last thread so i won't bother to do it again. it does not matter what the sunnis think about it. obviously they follow 2nd khalifa and we follow the Holy Prophet (pbuh&up)..shia dont consider themselves to be 2nd khalifa so maybe thats why they don't change and invent things in religion
Hai Hai
Rehman1 bhai ko saray secrets pata hain
Hooooooooooooooooo!!
oho.
now we'll have to move the whole damn forbidden city.
oh puhlease, if u wanna get laid .. just get go ahead and screw someone... everyone who decides to " get married temporarily" knows whats right or wrong.. dont blame ur religion when it has all to do with raging hormones.
among all these fiqs, when does Islam come into play??? :roll:
Aslam-o-Alakum!
[quote]
Islamabad posted the article: *
I was fourteen years old and my relationship with my parents was on the edge just like any other teenager.
[/quote]
It looks very strange to me that the girl who can write a whole article on Muta and able to tell her experience to other sunni sisters; could not find this ACT about muta that its not permissible for a *bakira âkawari girl. All of above without the permission of her father. Rehman1; who just finished his Quranic studies, came back on Gupshup after so many days; must be familiar of this aspect of Sunni fiqah. However its a good story type article written by moulvi sb. He used a queen type sunni girls very nicely to convey the message and to creat interest for Sunni boys.
Question to Islamabad: Why the story writer skiped the following aspect of Fiqh? what was the reason behind it.
ravage said: just a point of order. in shia thought it is not permissible for a girl to contract marriage, temporary or permanent, without her waali (parent's) permission.
As irem posted : *I don't think marriage should be without the consent of parents, period -- for the guy or the girl, specially for the girl. *
mAd_ScIeNtIsT said:
*irem, from my understanding, the Hanafi fiqh permits a virgin woman to get married without making it obligatory for her wali to consent to it, whereas the Maliki, Shafi and Hanbali fiqhs forbid this.
It is because of the Hanafi view that the Pakistani Supreme Court rules such marriages valid. I also believe, though I may be wrong, that the Jafaari fiqh holds the same view as the Hanafi on this matter.*
[QUOTE]
Lets Fly
1- Answer to your above word:
OK I want to do Muta' tell me who Ghairat Mand is there to present his Wife, Sister, Mother to me. I am sure that no one will. If there is any then PM me :d
[/quote]
Is it a gentle way to ask for Nikkah e mawakat (Muta); From which culture you are? Is this the way you ask for Rishta in your homes; would you like go to your father-law's home to ask him that if you are Ghairat mand, persent me your daughter for Nikkah with me. or if somebody come to your home and ask you or your father that if you are Ghairat Mand; present your girl for Nikkah. If this is the case tell me How will you give your girl even for Nikkah to him. You will never like to give him even if Nikkah is Halal in your fiqah. If it is the case how many other Sunni girls, who are confused as mentioned Islamabad's article in at your homes. let us take the advantage of their confusion. Ok dont worry! atleast you would love to present them to us in Nikkah.
Are these the teachings you learnt from islam. Shame! Nobody likes to create relationship with characterless people.
So the bottom line; all these kinds of objections you can do on Muta; you can do on Nikkah also. Both are from Sunnah and both have answer to satisfy unbelievers.
[quote]
ravage wrote
in shia thought it is not permissible for a girl to contract marriage, temporary or permanent, without her waali (parent's) permission.
[/quote]
to add: I think its for Kawari lurki -- am i true?
[quote]
irem wrote:
this has always been a debated issue in shariah isn't it? do u know that the Supreme court of pakistan has decreed that baligh girls can now get married on their own accord without the requirement of a wali..
[/Quote]
[quote]
irem Wrote:
I don't think marriage should be without the consent of parents, period -- for the guy or the girl, specially for the girl.
[/quote]
just a question ! isnt it there a difference between Baligh and Kawari.
Kawari can be even of 30 years-- Maiden
Baligh; when she crossed certain age limit. --Adult
[quote]
Nadia_H posted
In what ways would the couple NOT be able to get to know each other better if they didn't have muta? i mean, millions of couples must get engaged, NOT have muta done, but they still get to know each other right.
[/quote]
As ravage said: *Potential couples are encouraged to meet once (or atleast see each other?).
[quote]
Nadia_H posted
Couldn't she go in a group though, or take her son with her, or an uncle, or just go in a group full of Muslim ladies. Delegations leave annually during the time of Hajj from almost every country - why couldn't an unmarried lady join one of these delegations and go with them to perform her Hajj.
[/quote]
We should consult fiqh in this case of hajj. However Hajj is not the only case in which one woman have to do muta. but there could be many cases like;
(B) Burial of a woman by unknown person (Na mahrum; in Shariya)
(C) A person is on a project for specific period of time and there is no other solution otherwise to live in sombodyâs home. (Purda). etc etc
Certainly! The above three cases are entirely not with the intension to fulfill the needs of sex. Sex is one case. These all are options provided by Islamic Shariya. Like there is options of 2-3- or 4 wives in Islamic Shariya but it looks strange in most parts of the world at this point of time. Plus there are certain conditions apply. People who object faqah matters; they dont study the conditions.
[quote]
Nadia_H posted
i find the idea quite aberrant. Agar seedha seedha shaadi karni hai, then go for the nikkah. But this mutah thing seems to be somewhere in between...neither nikkah, and neither completely single either. From a rational perspective, i think it leaves a vacuum. What's the rationale behind it (except what i think it is which i don't feel comfortable saying)? Sounds like there is no rationale behind it.
[/quote]
You are right; it looks strange to us; because its not in practice. its same as Purda; In Anarkali bazar if you find a girl without Purda; it will not look strange because there are many who are not practicing it, nobody will feel it either. however in villages if a girl come out for work without Purda; everybody will point out. that *Fazal Deen ki bayti bagahr chadar ky bahar ghuum rahi thie.. pagal ho gaie hay kya. *. If you want to find more advantages and fiqah aspects about Muta; its literature is available on internet. Whether itâs good or bad?
See how things looks to people strange when they are not practicing it. because they dont know about those things. its not becuase those things are Haram in Fiqah. see the feelings of irem.
[quote]
*irem wrote: *
but r u serious? the legal minimum age for a muslim to marry is 8? danggggggggggg
[/quote]
So sister Nadia_H. This is not the question: they ask then why people are not practicing it? We have to see who is denying it and who not. People are not practicing many things but they are not denying those. Secondly it is encouraged to invoke a Sunnah that is why it is called that its a great Sawab to do Muta because it was stopped by Khalifa Umer in his time; against the teachings of Islam.
If people left doing miswaak which is sunnh. And if you try to invoke it with this niyyah that you are reminding people a Sunnah, than it would be great Sawab as if you simply you do it as Sunnah. I think you got my point. And if you struggle hard to invoke it; if itâs stopped by force than there would be greater Sawab.
[quote]
rehman1 wrote
Well as far as my knowledge is concerned , shias think ITS SAWAB TO DO MUTAH.
[/quote]
Please read the above paragraphs.
[quote]
rehman1 wrote
My Shia friends tell me that educated shias don't do this Mutah anymore. And It is only allowed with Widows. But when they were explaining to me , I could sense that they were saying jhoot.
[/quote]
Why dont you read those books which are the hands of Educated Shias. Is it written there that its only for Widows. How authentic that Shia would be who forgot telling you that Muta is also permissible for a divorced.
[quote]
rehman1 wrote
They read some SAGHIAS , Don't know what that is.
[/quote]
Havenât you read Sigha e Nikkah in your books? Sigha means phrase/statement/ (statement of agreement) According to most of Ullema e Islami; Sigha e Nikkah must be in Arabic. However some says its also permissible to read Sigha e Nikkah or Muta in any language.
isnt this the same practise that pakistani mullahs allow for the wife who was divorced, to marry then divorce and remarry her first husband?
THIS IS SO WRONG>>>>the prophet saw forbade it and so the later hadiths abrogate the former as, situations were presented to validate the law which was being brought into practise/ or to support and make easy the strength of iman of the new ummah emerging.