Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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I am reading the press reports of the grilling given to various tech executivves yesterday on Capitol Hill at the congressional hearings on human rights. It just doesn’t make sense to me, so I hope you guys can provide some more flavor to the on-going discussion.

While most of us agree that the policies of internet censorship to repress political freedom by Chinese government can be deemed a violation of human rights, however, I find it extremely odd when a holocaust survivor US Congressman compares China to Nazi Germany. They were pointing fingers at Google, Yahoo, Cisco and Microsoft for cooperating with a dictatorship regime, while conveniently ignoring that China is one of the biggest trade partners of US. Chinese government holds a significant balance of US Treasury notes and US has granted permanent normal trade relations to the government of Peking/Beijing. With US government officially a friend of the government in China, why are the tech companies berated for doing business there?

The other line of questioning is that the companies should refuse to obey the law of the land. They lamblasted Yahoo for following a Chinese government order to provide an email address that resulted in imprisonment of a dissident. While the outcome of Yahoo’s cooperation is unfortunate, it is interesting to note the high-and-mighty tone of US Congressmen, in the backdrop of US government own on-going witchhunt of internet traffic requesting internet search records and conducting (perhaps illegal) wire-tapping, secret evidence and military courts etc.

While I am never particularly fond of the argument that if we don’t do business there, someone else will, the holier-than-thou attitude adopted by US lawmakers is truly mind-boggling. I am disappointed, though not surprised, that no tech executive drew parallals with the conduct of US government and Chinese government when it comes to restriction of information and spying on its own citizens.

I agree with Google that their unofficial corporate motto, “Don’t do evil” has a footnote that says “Don’t do illegal”.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Faisal, it is all for the show...they do have to get re-elected you know. Its all for sound bites and election campaign adds ...so they can show their lefty constitutents(sp?) that they care about human rights.

Interesting that you brought up "holier than thou" attitude of the lawmakers and not accepting "if we dont do business someone else will". I was recently doing some research for a paper on Globalization and came across a very interesting article. For the life of me, I cannot find the link now. Anyhow, the author gave some stratling figures on how US companies lose out on business in other countries because they cannot give and accept bribes. The number was $25 billion a year. That is a huge setback..... he also mentioned how our good friend "frenchies" and germans promptly come in to grease the palms of the local officials and win the contract/project. So congress, how about leveling the playfield and taking this stupid law off the books. When in Rome do as Roamns do.( No Roman I will not look for prostitutes on the side of the road). :)

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Faisal, there are only a few weapons of diplomacy available to the US. The most controversial is “engagement”. That is where you choose to engage your enemy through means of economic, cultural, and social interchange. Why do we allow the Chinese to become students in our Universities? Can you imagine those students returning to China NOT eventually insisting that their leaders be elected by the people? Do you think those students truely understand “Freedom of Speech” when they return home?

This is the trojan horse of Democracy. You can put all the filters on the internet you want, but that is a small finger in the dam. The flood of information that will reach the Chinese will eventually force open markets, free and fair votes, and political freedoms. The Great Wall will go the way of the Berlin Wall.

It may take decades, but an economic dependency guarantees that China has to listen, no matter how much they don’t like it. Could the US outsource to Indonesia, India, Brazil, Pakistan (:rolleyes:) if China closed their doors? You bet. Could the Chinese find another market partner to replace the US? No way. Their economy would be trashed for decades. No US company puts all their eggs in the China basket alone. Each supplier has a back up in some other part of the world.

The communist regime in China will move at a snail pace, but they are hooked, and they will go the way of Japan and Taiwan into the modern world.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Ohioguy, yes this all makes sense. But you didn't address the main question I had raised. Why then grill the tech companies on following the law? One word that comes to my mind is "hypocritical". But I don't want to use it, lest I am missing something here.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Pressure.

Why not apply some pressure?

US Lawmakers cannot supeona Chinese officials to answer the same questions. They do have the right to quiz American Companies, so they do it. The message is clear to the Chinese.

This is not about the US tech companies. They are just the conduit through which the governments are communicating. The next time a tech executive is negociating with a Chinese official, the tech company has a little more powder in reserve to push the Chinese he is negociating with.

You need to see the real intent, not the headline.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Do you honestly think that with all thats going on in the US, with wire-tapping of its own citizens, sub-peona of internet search records (refused by Google), imprisonment of people without recourse to a court of law etc, people should take the rants of US Congressmen, comparing China to Nazi Germany, seriously?

More importantly, do you think US companies should pay heed to the suggestion that they break local laws of another country (or get out), when that country is the largest trade partner of US?

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

First of all, I used to work for a Congressman, so I never take their rants seriously. :)

But you are still missing the point. If a US company is asked to do something wrong again by the Chinese Government, they can now say, "Didn't you see those hearings? Do you want to go through that again? Why should my company have to go through that again?". It gives the company executives some support to resist requests that are not in keeping with American Laws, or at least American Values.

Moreover, the tradition of opposition parties and a free press will bring balance to your list of American "transgressions". There will be public debates, editorials, political ads, and all forms of open discussions. I have often said that a Democracy is like a sailboat hit by a strong wind. If a sailboat is knocked over by a huge gust, it has a long keel, and heavy ballast that will work to right the boat. The boat may tilt, but the institutions of Democracy will work to balance and right the boat.

China has none of those self righting mechanisms. Their leaders are not elected. There is a viscious security apparatus. There is censorship and self-censorship. There is no true free enterprise, mostly state owned sponsored and directed major businesses. There is no true freedom of religions, and no true "Bill of Rights" style freedoms. There is no balance brought by a free press. Justice is a total farce.

My faith in the United States is not that we are right every moment of the day, but in the long run we make the right decisions. If indeed your list of ills in the United States is vindicated, it will be by the opposing political party, the Supreme Court, Free press, and the will of the majority. I have faith in the balance and the process of the country, not it's position at a given moment of time. I have no faith in the Chinese Leadership, as they are a handful of men operating in shadows.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Good points. This is why I like Gupshup. I think your point about more leverage to these companies in their dealings with China makes sense.

Considering, US has a huge trade relationship with China, to berate a few tech companies to comply with the oppressive laws, which only deal with censorship sounds pretty inane. I have no doubt that the Nike shoes we buy for $15 at our nearest Walmart and produced in China utilized much more repressive communist regulations and petty wages to the Chinese worker. I don't see much hue and cry over supporting the repression of chinese workers just so we can buy cheap GAP products. That a Google.cn user in China won't see images of tanks when they search for "Tiannamen" (sp?) is not really a big deal in my mind (granted, its just an example), compared to the real atrocities carried out in dictatorships around the world.

I think of it more as misplaced priorities and hypocritical attitudes.

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Re: Tech Companies, China and US Lawmakers

Mr. Faisal, ask yourself :
where is the human right when they even spy on telephone ?
where is the human right for innocent Iraqis killed
in a war based on plain LIES ?
where is the human right for those prisoners being abused in Abu Graihbu ?
where is the human right when they ask for search records from exactly those
same search engine providers(only Google reluctant to cooperate) ?

ok i stop here, it is just countless.

now let me tell you why : It is all because of their hypocrisy. :mad:

Things done by americans are good for human right, however the exactly
same things done by nations americans hate are violations of human right.
what a joke !

What the chinese government is trying to block ? those pure faked smears.
the 2007 US budget on smearing other countries is about $15 billion. Just
days ago their state secretary asked an extra $78 million to smear Iran.
Mr Faisal if you don’t understand what these smears things are, take a look
at the Iraq WMD lie. Do not forget how US’ propaganda campaign of Iraq’s
Weapon of Mass Destruction turns out to be Weapon of Mass Deception ! :slight_smile:

Frankly speaking, are americans enjoying more human right and democracy
than Chinese does ? Yes. But , it is only a LITTLE BIT better. not very much
at all. It is way very very FAR from real human right and democracy.
so what is the real nature of american democracy ? in short , it is just a
superficial show. A bunch of puppet politicians controlled by 5 percent
of rich americans do the show on stage, and the 95 percent naive americans
watch these puppets jumping up down on stage and ,yeah, feel like they
are enjoying the so called democracy. :cb:
so Yes, there is realy democracy in the US, but only for the small percentage of
rich class. while the majority of americans are actually naive idiots being fooled
but they never realized it and very happy about their “democracy” :stuck_out_tongue:

Mr Faisal since you are in the US , remember my words, sooner or later you
will understand what i am saying.

to ohioguy, since you americans don’t like to do business with China, PLEASE
STOP it. Nobody can force you do business with him if you don’t want right ?
so why not stop yourself? let’s see which countries will laugh and which country will
cry, ultimately.

to you americans I have only one word to give you: “hypocrisy”.