Tawassul

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Dear Thandy

The question that was put forward by me was:

**Could our friends here explain to me what does the term "One Allah" means? Please - I know that there is no God but Allah but when you say "one Allah" - does it mean that Allah is one as in "one piece"?
Or,

Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah"?**

Thandy,
I thank you for your unique response.

[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
** let me explain....well Allah is beyond our imagination, he is beyond our comprehension of the truth and yes, there is no limit to him and we can not describe him as "sitting on his throne" or any physical trait that is common to the creation. all the creations in this universe occupy space, but occupancy of space is the trait of the creation,and space it self is a creation, so it does not apply to allah. **
[/quote]

Dear Thandy,
If Allah is beyond your imagination then why go around trying to IMPOSE your views of Allah upon others. Why bother to post a lot of arrogant non-sense!

Clearly, if Allah is beyond comprehension then He cannot be quantified as - one, three or many. In other words - He is everywhere.

The sufi saints realized this about Allah a long time ago and is the reason they exclaimed:
"There is nothing but Allah"
"The best place to worship Allah is in the temple of the heart".

In your above explanation where you quoted "sitting on his throne" - that is from Sura'h al-Hadid 57:4, isn't it?
You should have quoted the full verse so all could appreciate Allah.

[al-Hadid 57:4] He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.

Here's another favourite of sufi scholars:
[Qaf 50:16] We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.

And, another:
[an-Nur 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth......Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.

[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
** ...the fact will remian...its the creator we should worship, not creations.....even if you dont want to be muslim, pray to the god, not his creations and then say hey, since god is every where no matter what i worship, i am praying to god....sorry it doesnt work that way**
[/quote]

Thandy,
Every believer worships the Creator who goes by many names and is approached in many ways, but they all believe in the Unity of Allah or Oneness of Allah.

If their worship is odd to you, then equally odd is your worship facing, supposedly, the Ka'ba - a creation of man. If, for non muslims, this would be tantamount to idol-worship then surely it shouln't be any different for muslims.

42

[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
** sorry man, doing sajda to a prophet or tomb for ummah of mohammed SAW is NEVER NEVER allowed...simple....previous ummahs might have had allowed it...like some ummahs were allowed marriage among siblings and things like that....but later it became forbidden, **
[/quote]

Dear Thandy,

Doing sajda to the prophet SWS is nothing different that angels commanded by Allah to prostrate before Hazrat Adam:

[al-Hijr 15:28] And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered,

[al-Hijr 15:29] So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him.

43

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
** There is an answer!.
Allah is one (Wahid) it means he is the one who has no partner in Godhood.

Imam Ahmad ar-Rifa^y said: Allah is one not as a number, but as One who has not partner. This clears Allah from having a wife, a son or daughter. And affimrs that Allah is the creator of everything.

  • Note: Brother, It's not correct to say: Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah" Because Allah is not in places, creations are in Places. The belief of Muslims is that Allah exists without a place, because he doesnt' need his creations and place is a creation. Jews and christians believe that Allah is in places, and that is blasphemy. Our belief is that Allah existed eternally before the place, that is without a place, and now he is as he was. That is the saying of Imam Aliy "Allah existed and there was no place, and now He is as he was. That is without a place.** [/quote]

Dear Ahmed,
May I direct you to the response provided to ThandyMazaq- posted November 01, 2001 10:19 PM.

The concept of partner & godhead is subjective. All prophets & apostles are acting on behalf of Allah and with the authority of Allah. Does this make them partner or Godhead? Was Muhammed SWS a partner of Allah?

Your understanding of "Light" is different than traditional Islam. I have read your comments in another thread on Sufis (I can't recall the title) which most sufis will reject. Your comments on Noor e Muhammedi, fana(union with Allah), and other esoteric beliefs of sufis is, as I said, against acceptable beliefs of traditional Islam. In other words - you are being slanderous with your copy & paste.

You, like Thandy, keep talking about space or Allah cannot occupy space. Let me ask you this simple question:

Can Allah occupy space if He wanted to?
According to you - He cannot! (Wow! Get real!)

Brother - Stop pretending to claim to be the authority on Allah. This would be tantamount to being ridiculous. Let's just agree that Allah is beyond comprehension and is All-knowing, Wise and without Limits! So, stop telling Allah what Hecan be or not be; or in this case that - He cannot occupy space.

The Quran has a very good explanation of Allah - appreciated mostly by sufis:

[an-Nur 24:35] God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! God doth guide whom He will to His Light: God doth set forth Parables for men: and God doth know all things.

Dear Ahmed,
Could you explain what Allah is talking about in the parable or,
"....The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! God doth guide whom He will to His Light: .."

I shall respond to your other post later. I am going to bed!

44

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
** Dear Ahmed,
May I direct you to the response provided to ThandyMazaq- posted November 01, 2001 10:19 PM.

Can Allah occupy space if He wanted to?
According to you - ------! (Wow! Get real!)
[/quote]

Al Hamdulillah wa sallallahu Ala Rasulillah,

To the senior member, Logic, I Ask Allah to make us from those who listen to the truth and accept it.

I want to clarify something for you, and it is that Islam is not a religion of superstitions and thoughts, it is The book of Allah and the Hadith of the Honroable Prophet which interprets the book of Allah, and Ijma^, whihc is the unanimous agreement of Scholars on Islamic matter asserted from the main Islamic sources.

For the question that you feel you are chellenging with, if you had been more educated Islamically you know that such a question can not be asked. Why? Because asking: Can Allah occupy space if He wanted to? Both answers yes, and no, nulifies one's faith. If one replied to this question by no, he would have attributed to Allah the weakness, and Allah is clear from that, and if one answers that Question with yes, he would have attributed to Allah the place and boundaries, which is likening Allah to his creations and Allah is clear from that. Allah existed before time and place.

The answer to that Question is that is an intelectual possibility, and the intelectual possibility does not apply to Allah.

Let it be known that the judgments of the mind are three kinds:

The intellectual necessity: This refers to what the mind does not conceive its non-existence, i.e., non-existence does not apply to its self. Allah is the One Whose Existence is necessary, because the mind does not accept His non-existence, i.e., non-existence does not apply to the Self of Allah.

The intellectual impossibility: This refers to what the mind does not conceive its existence, i.e., that to which existence does not apply. The existence of a partner with Allah is an intellectual impossibility, because existence does not apply to it, i.e., the mind does not conceive its existence.

The intellectual possibility: This refers to what the mind conceives its existence at one time and its non-existence at another time. This universe and its contents--among what we can see and what we cannot see--is an intellectual possibility. It is so because the mind conceives its existence after a state of non-existence. This is the state of the entire universe. For example, Allah made the human being exist after having been non-existent, and then this human being shall be annihilated (Annihilation of humans is by complete death, which is defined as the soul completely departing the body. The souls do not annihilate and some bodies do not decay in the soil.) This is why the human being's existence is among the intellectual possibilities.

Allah, ta^ala, said which means: Allah has attributes that do not resemble the attributes of others .

It is obligatory to believe the attributes of Allah are confirmed to Him. He who negates them is called an atheist. Hence, the one who does not believe in the Existence of Allah, i.e., the one who negates Allah's attribute of Existence is called an atheist.

The attributes of Allah that are obligatory to believe in are confirmed to Him. They are not the Self of Allah nor other than the Self of Allah. Rather, we say they are attributes with which Allah is attributed and they are religiously and intellectually obligatory for Him. Imam an-Nasafiyy said: "His attributes are not Him nor other than Him."

So, I hope that makes it clear.

Also, you have used the statement: "You can not tell Allah what he can do or what he can't", Know that first, talking in this manner about Allah is unacceptalbe, and most importantly, know that no one was saying nor thinking of such thoughts. No one mentioned that, no one said can Allah put himself in a place nor otherwise. What was said is that ALLAH IS CLEAR FROM NEED, AND THAT IS SPACE, PLACE, AND LIMITS. ALLAH IS CLEAR FROM THE ATTRIBUTES OF WEAKNESS AND ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT RESEMBLE HIS CREATIONS.

Allah has the attributes of perfection. We do not say where was he, how is he, We say what Allah said in Al-Qur'an surat as-shura ayah 11 [Absolutely nothing resembles Allah, and He has the attributes of hearing and sight]. Place, time, change, organs, body, soul, all of these are attributes of creations, Allah is clear from them.

<<>> Learning the Obligatory Knowledge of the Religion puts the Muslim on the road for excellence and self-betterment. Acquire The Islamic Knowledge Before You Discuss Religion!!

Ahmad/Islamic Studies

45

Regarding to your Allegation senior Member Logic, of cutting and pasting... be careful, or else you will commit the sin of misjudging othes (Soo' Thann". Al-Hamdulillah we have the small portion of knowledge that we acquired from actual scholars vocally, and affirmed that knowledge with Isnad, and did not take my religion from reading books or surfing, That's why I type all of the articles, eventhought I have my articles saved I use them overe and over for the ones whom are seeking the benefit.

Senior Member said:

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**Your understanding of "Light" is different than traditional Islam. I have read your comments in another thread on Sufis (I can't recall the title) which most sufis will reject. Your comments on Noor e Muhammedi, fana(union with Allah), and other esoteric beliefs of sufis is, as I said, against acceptable beliefs of traditional Islam. In other words - you are being slanderous with your copy & paste.

[/quote]

My Undestanding of light is of what we have learned from the Arabic syntax. If you search the the Islamic Dictionaries such as Al-Fayrooz Abadi, or any others, you will find the word Noor, having many meanings, among them is: Ligt, Guidness, Guiding..

Sufies are Ahlus-sunnah themselves, (altought, we must warn against sufi claimers), but all true sufies have the belife of the Prophet. Their interepertation to Noor, is guidness. However there are sufi claimers who deviated said Muhammad is inhuman, he is physical light and that is unislamic.

Prophet Muhammad was born from a mohter and a fhater, and used to eat and drink and had wives and children and is pure human and the best of Allah's creations. Prophet Muhammad came with noor, or if one said: Prophet Muhammad is noor and meant that he is the one that came with Islam and guided people, that is correct and right. But to make Him inhuman and say he is physical light, that is against Islam.

[quote]

Dear Ahmed,
Could you explain what Allah is talking about in the parable or,
"....The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! God doth guide whom He will to His Light: .."
**
[/quote]

Regarding the intial Ayah, Know that Al-Qur'an was not revealed in English, it was revealed in Arabic, thus, refer to the Arabci context because Islam is against the Translating of Al-Qur'an, if that was acceptable the Sahabha would have done it for the forgein Msulims. Yet translating the meanings of the ayat is what must be done.

For that Ayah [Allahu Noorus-Samawati wal-Ard] I'm not a mufassir of Al-Qur'an nor any of us here, so we must refer to Ahluttafseer. Imam and Hafith Al-Bayhaqiy said this ayahe: "means Allah is the one who guides the Occupants of Heavens which are the angels and the one who guides the occupants of the earth which are the human and jinn." And that is what All Mufassireen said such as tabariy and qurtubiy and many others.

The name of Allah Is An-Noor, not Light, and An-Noor means: The One Who guides
Allah said in Al-Qur'an wich means: [He is the one who created Lights and darknesses], And Allah does not resemble what he created.

Insha'lah that is clarified enough.
Allah knows best.

46

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
** Al Hamdulillah wa sallallahu Ala Rasulillah,

To the senior member, Logic, I Ask Allah to make us from those who listen to the truth and accept it. **
[/quote]

Brother - I will add that may He - Allah, give us strength to use our intelligence/AQL - His best gift to mankind! So, that we may understand right from wrong and good from evil.

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
I want to clarify something for you, and it is that Islam is not a religion of superstitions and thoughts, it is The book of Allah and the Hadith of the Honroable Prophet which interprets the book of Allah, and Ijma^, whihc is the unanimous agreement of Scholars on Islamic matter asserted from the main Islamic sources.
[/quote]

Brother - the main Islamic source of the sunnis are the hadiths compiled by Imam Bukhari - 250 years after the Prophet. It is these hadiths that serve as basis for understanding the Quran and as the basis of all sharia'h laws.

The Ijma or consensus of scholars that codified the 4 sunni taqlids also codified the sharia'h laws - both based on the hadiths.

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
*For the question that you feel you are chellenging with, if you had been more educated Islamically you know that such a question can not be asked. Why? Because asking: Can Allah occupy space if He wanted to? Both answers yes, and no, nulifies one's faith. *
[/quote]

Brother, attitude like that is what has kept Islam & muslims down - excluding people from asking questions with the excuse that it will lead to disbelief & kufr.

If you wish them to know & learn - then encourage introspection, let them ask questions . An educated Ummah is the best Ummah.

I believe it was you that stated rather pompously that 'Allah cannot occupy space' which is what lead me to ask this question.

For response - I get platitudes.

The simple answer is - Allah can do whatever He wants and that includes occuping space in a billion places at the same time. - End of Discussion.

But, you persist....

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
**If one replied to this question by no, he would have attributed to Allah the weakness, and Allah is clear from that, and if one answers that Question with yes, he would have attributed to Allah the place and boundaries, which is likening Allah to his creations and Allah is clear from that. Allah existed before time and place.

The answer to that Question is that is an intelectual possibility, and the intelectual possibility does not apply to Allah. **
[/quote]

Brother - Give up with this useless & vain charade and ** agree with what I said earlier - that Allah is incomprehensible, beyond imagination, but without limits and - to stop telling Allah what He can be or not be!. You just want Allah to be - What you wish, as per your unique understanding of Islam. **

You continue to hammer away the positions of scholars - dead for centuries, about Allah's attributes and what not - which has ** no co-relation with the Quran; rather, they are all extreme positions of scholars based on their hatred for other faiths.**

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmad G:
*Let it be known that the judgments of the mind are three kinds: *
[/quote]

My dear chap,
This obsession with ** Partners of Allah**that you & your scholars have is based upon Islamic scholars misconception about Christianity's belief in the Holy Trinity.

Trinity is merely an expression of Allah in 3 forms; it may have been a billion and, Allah is without limits, regardless of what you hold as - your unique understanding.

So, can Allah be a Partner of Allah? Yes! I typed it correctly!
"Light upon Light... Allah guides unto His Light whom He pleases" (Holy Quran)

In the example of the Trinity - it is His Light/Nur that expresses itself in three "spaces" or the Trinity. So, when Christians pray to Jesus - they are praying to the Spirit of Allah in Jesus.

All humans believe in the Unity or Oneness of Allah. We all approach it differently but you have this obsession that only 'your way' is correct and I pray that May you see the Light!

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La Quwata Ila Billah.

From what you recently mentioned, showed us clearly that you are a secular person that is trying to assume Islam, and is committing misinterpretation and speaking-without-knowledge While you resist on compiling the concepts on your own. Allah protected this religion by the scholars whom you find useless!! And know that without them, you would not have reached the level of comprehension, yet you have failed to accept that, and went on abusing that endowment, by making your own assumptions.

Islam is the knowledge that is reached to us through chain of scholars (narrators) who tell us what Islam is.
If you reject the sayings of the scholars, how else can you be convinced?!..

I do not understand how you can’t realize your rudeness when talking about Allah, and that is when you said: You want to make Allah to be what to be!! Or when you said: can Allah occupy a place or not!! This Is unislamic at the beginning. I do encourage you to affirm your sources, and you will find “my scholars” whom are the scholars of Islam, such as Bayhaqiy, Nawawiy, Bukhariy, Muslim… clear Allah from such questions!. Allah’s will does not have to do with the intellectual possibility. You are opening a gateway to kufur by permitting such questions. And yet again, you affirm that Allah is unimagined and does not need his creations and has no limits, which is true, Yet you must believe that Allah does not change. Change is from the beings and Allah is clear from resembling his beings.

Allah existed eternally before the places. Now he is as he was. Without a place. This is the belief of the Prophet and his sahabah. Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah existed and there was nothing” and now he exists as he existed, that is, he existed before any of the creations, place, heavens, directions, and time, and now he is as he was. That is why Imam Aliy clarified to us this hadiht by saying: “Allah existed and there was no place, and now he exists as he existed eternally” that is without a place. Thus, Allah does not change. Allah knows best.

Islam is the only religion accepted by Allah. Allah said in Al-Quran [inna-Ddeen ^indallah Al-Islam] which means Allah only accepts Islam as a religion.

** OTHER THAN MUSLIMS ARE NOT BELIEVERS, AND HELL IS PREPARED FOR THEM. CHRISTIANS, JEWS, BUDIAST, ATHIESTS DESERVE HELLFIRE DO TO THEIR DISBELIEVE IN THEIR CREATOR.**

Allah clearly informed us in Al-Qur’an that [O people of the book, why do you blaspheme in Allah]. And Allah in Al-Qur’an clarified [we have prepared hellfire to the non believers].

No compromisation. Islam is the only true religion.

<<>> Learning the Obligatory Knowledge of the Religion puts the Muslim on the road for excellence and self-betterment. Acquire The Islamic Knowledge Before You Discuss Religion!!

Ahmad/Islamic Studies

48

mr logical,
trinity is a false belief....
The Quran clearly mentions that....
so dont give any logic to prove it....

also note that the Bible has no mention of trinity....
and only recently have the priests added this concept to the Bible after it was pointed out by others that how cud christians stand by a belief that isnt even mentioned in their book....

anyway, bottom line, God is ONE and ONLY ONE and JESUS (pbuh) was a PROPHET and NOT a GOD or SON OF GOD....
he was a HUMAN as we r....
and can give us nothing or can by himself do nothing unless ALLAH wishes him to do....
and the same is true for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).....