Paglu, maybe you missed these the first time around:
**Younus*
"'Nor call on any, other than Allah.- Such will neither profit thee nor hurt thee: if thou dost, behold! thou shalt certainly be of those who do wrong.'"
If Allah do touch thee with hurt, there is none can remove it but He: if He do design some benefit for thee, there is none can keep back His favour: He causeth it to reach whomsoever of His servants He pleaseth. And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. *
These two are really SIMPLE and don't require much twisting of thoughts. They totally TERMINATE the concept of WASILA.
In the case of Yousuf ('alayhi salaatu wassalaam), when they fell in prostration to him, it was becuase Allaah (subhaan wa ta'aala) wished to show Yousuf (as) that his dream was indeed from Allaah and that it had finally come true after all those years - where he had seen the sun, the moon and the stars prostaring to him.
And as for Musa ('alayhi salaatu wassalaam), then those who prostrated to him had been ignorant and were not upon Tawheed (Oneness of Allaah) and merely did it in acknowledgement that they had been wrong and Musa (as) was upon the truth.
Anyway, the proofs from the Qur'aan have already been provided to you by the other members to suggest that Waseelah of Prophets and Saints is not permissible ... the rest is up to you.
*"No leaf falls except that he knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it." *
In the case of Yousuf ('alayhi salaatu wassalaam), when they fell in prostration to him, it was becuase Allaah (subhaan wa ta'aala) wished to show Yousuf (as) that his dream was indeed from Allaah and that it had finally come true after all those years - where he had seen the sun, the moon and the stars prostaring to him.
And as for Musa ('alayhi salaatu wassalaam), then those who prostrated to him had been ignorant and were not upon Tawheed (Oneness of Allaah) and merely did it in acknowledgement that they had been wrong and Musa (as) was upon the truth.
Anyway, the proofs from the Qur'aan have already been provided to you by the other members to suggest that Waseelah of Prophets and Saints is not permissible ... the rest is up to you.
**
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Salaam bro. First of all i struggle to understand your explanation for the first verse. Hazrat Yosufs' dream had its interpretion done by Hazrat Yaqoob as Hazrat Yosuf being a Prophet, not to do anything with his brothers prostrating.
Secondly, i find it hard to believe if anyone commits something as huge sin as "SHIRK" infront of a nabbi, and the Nabbi do not stop it or condemn it. Also if the jadogars were wrong, then the glorious Quran would have surely mentioned it or atleast hinted towards it. Instead, the darbaris were appraised since they prostrated to Hazrat Musa and Haroon (as) and led to flare of anger from Firaoun.
3rdly, none of the ayats presented by the fellow participants prove anything whatsoever against the idea of Tawassul. Again i repeat that this idea is acknowledged and accepted by both Shia and Sunni scholars. It was 17th century when people started having problems with it.
w's
[This message has been edited by Pagluu (edited October 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pagluu (edited October 19, 2001).]
May i ask, what is the lowest action of humility toward Allaah? is it not to prostrate as one does in salaah?**
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In my view prostrate if the higest action of humility. One can only prostrate infront of the Almight and noone else. I presented the "prostration-ayats" to prove that Allah would've condemed these prostrates strongly if in anyway they were "Shrik".
brother, my point was made very early in the conversation. I said nabbis are representatives of Allah (swt). Asking a dua or help from them is same as asking Allah for help.
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In my view prostrate if the higest action of humility. One can only prostrate infront of the Almight and noone else.
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Exactly! It is the highest form of humility and is therefore only reserved for Allaah.
Allaah did not condemn these acts in the Qur'aan, as i too said earlier, He wanted to show Yousuf (as) that his dream as a child could only have been from Allaah and whatever Allaah commands, it happens. He just has to will. This prostration was only for that moment while Allaah (SWT) showed us the Power of His Will.
And in the case of Musa, as i mentioned, those people were ignorant, yet prostrated in acknowledgement of his truth.
There is also a hadeeth al-Qudsee of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alyhi wa sallam), whereby Allaah says, that if He had ordered for the woman to prostrate to any other after Himself, He would have ordered her to prostarate to her husband. This shows, that there is no order made, and it is not permissble for us to prostrate to another besides Allaah (SWT).
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
In the above discussion Hasnain is coming purely from a literal interpretation and Pagluu from an esoteric perspective; the latter or esoteric requires using one's brain and knowledge, the former or the literal confines one to "hear & obey". Thinking & asking questions is Heresy.
It was Adam who was created in Allah's image and His spirit and Lucifer asked to bow before Adam. Lucifer refused and was expelled from Heaven.
All Allah's Prophets & their Diinely Guided ones are created in Allah's image & His Spirit and when we prostrate before them, we prostrate before that Spirit of Allah.
Just like I can see Allah in the all aspects of His creations after-all, "Allah is in the Heaven & the Earth..."(HQ).
Remember there is nothing, everything is Allah.
[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**
It was Adam who was created in Allah's image and His spirit and Lucifer asked to bow before Adam. Lucifer refused and was expelled from Heaven.
All Allah's Prophets & their Diinely Guided ones are created in Allah's image & His Spirit and when we prostrate before them, we prostrate before that Spirit of Allah.
Just like I can see Allah in the all aspects of His creations after-all, "Allah is in the Heaven & the Earth..."(HQ).
Remember there is nothing, everything is Allah.**
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I agree with later part of your post. It is all absolutely correct.
btw topic here was Tawassul. w's
Thanks Pagluu and I thought I was referring to tawassul when I mentioned that "all Allah's Prophets & His Divinely Guided Ones are created in His Image & His Spirit"
so, when we prostrate or invoke the Prophet for his tawassul or tabarruk we are invoking the Spirit of Allah.
Some on this forum refer to this as Shirk. Others do not and this is why Islam can be a great religion.
"To you yours and to me mine..."
No one from the Muslims refer to Tawassul as shirk. There is a sect that does that, and they do that because of their hatred to the Prophet, and the proof is that they say: Prophet is dead, he's useless, and does not benefit after his death. Known the fact that Our Prophet Moses, after death in Mi^raj had benefited us by telling Prophet Muhammad to Ask Allah to decrease the Amount of Prayer, untill it was lessened from 50 Prayers to 5.
Tawassul: Asking Is Asking Allah and no one else, through the Virtue of a Prophet or a Waliy. Such as: O Allah I ask you by the virtue of the Prophet, to grant us Paradise. O Allah we Ask you by Muhammad, to let grant us the good ending (Die as Muslims).
This is asserted from the afformentioned ahadiths. And the Prophet taught the blind man to make tawassul. And after the death of the Honorable Prophet, Our Kahliph Uthman Ibn Affan taught a man the hadith (Du^a') of the blind man - which was taught by the Prophet to the blind man to fulfil his need.
ALLAH IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CREATED BENEFIT OR HARM.
This is the creed of the hundreds of millions of Muslims excluding the small wahabie sect that oppose the Ummah.
I do not understand why some are trying to misinterpret the facts, and to mislead others.
Some are saying why not ask Allah only?
We say: well do you know any Muslim that exists that says: O Muhammad forgive me? or says: O Rifa^i Grant Me Jannah? or says: O Jaylani Grant me health?!!! No one does, but they Ask Allah to grant them their need using the holy ones as a waseelah. So answereing the Question of some, would be: Why does Prophet Muhammad intercede for the siners?! It's not the Prophet or the Awlia' that cause the benefit or the harm, it is Allah but Allah accepted your du^a' because of the Holy Prophet, he is the cause.
Just like when you get sick, what do you do? you seek a doctor for medicine right?! Well, medicine did not create the cure, Allah made it as a cause to cure you, for it's known that sometimes that medicine does not help you, and sometimes it does.
Subhanallah..
And then again, there's others that say: LET'S UNDERSTAND AL-QRU'AN FOR NOW, AND FORGET ABOUT TEH SCHOLARS FOR NOW!!! Why do you receive revelation?!! do you understand Al-Qur'an by just reading it!! You know Al-Qur'an more than the scholars?! You must follow the Prophet who taught al-Qur'an. You must follow the sahabah who taught us what the Prophet said. You must follow the (acceptable and qualified) scholars who taught us what sahabah taught. One can not comprehend Islam on his own. It is simple only if you acquire the knowledge from knowledgable ones who did the same, till that knowledge reach the Prophet.
If I gave everyone in this forum a book to read it on his own, and they all returned, and talked about it, everyone would have a different interpertation of the book and different understanding. Whereas if I took that one book and explained it to all, all would have one Understanding. And I would only do that, if I had acquired that knowledge int the book from a knowledable person, who acquried it from a knowledable person and so on till the tha tknowledge reach the Prophet. This is Isnad Mutassil.
ARE YOU A MUFASSIR? IF SO, GIVE ME A TAFSEER THAT AGREES WITH TAFSEERS OF MUFASSIREEN THAT SAYS ASKING ALLAH BY THE VIRTUE OF HONROABLE PROPHET IS SHIRK! I’LL WAIT 20 YEARS.
Imam Tabarani related in the sahih hadith in his Mu^jam Alkbaeer and As-Sagheer that the Prophet taught the blind Sahabahi tawassul.
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Originally posted by Ahmad G:
** ARE YOU A MUFASSIR? IF SO, GIVE ME A TAFSEER THAT AGREES WITH TAFSEERS OF MUFASSIREEN THAT SAYS ASKING ALLAH BY THE VIRTUE OF HONROABLE PROPHET IS SHIRK! I'LL WAIT 20 YEARS.
Imam Tabarani related in the sahih hadith in his Mu^jam Alkbaeer and As-Sagheer that the Prophet taught the blind Sahabahi tawassul.**
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There are countless numbers of tafseers available and because of this diversity, I am sure a person can come up with some proof.
She didn't give you tafseer. She gave you Ayahs of the Quran!!! Like, how hard is that to understand? Which holds more proof? The man-made tafseer or the words given to us by ALLAH?
Could our friends here explain to me what does the term "One Allah" means? Please - I know that there is no God but Allah but when you say "one Allah" - does it mean that Allah is one as in "one piece"?
Or,
Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah"?
[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**Could our friends here explain to me what does the term "One Allah" means? Please - I know that there is no God but Allah but when you say "one Allah" - does it mean that Allah is one as in "one piece"?
Or,
Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah"?
Please explain!**
[/quote]
They do not have any answer;
they will reject your point of views as corruption and,
end up "Telling Allah - what He can be or not be"!
[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**Could our friends here explain to me what does the term "One Allah" means? Please - I know that there is no God but Allah but when you say "one Allah" - does it mean that Allah is one as in "one piece"?
Or,
Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah"?
Please explain!**
[/quote]
let me explain....well Allah is beyond our imagination, he is beyond our comprehension of the truth and yes, there is no limit to him and we can not describe him as "sitting on his throne" or any physical trait that is common to the creation. all the creations in this universe occupy space, but occupancy of space is the trait of the creation,and space it self is a creation, so it does not apply to allah. so we can not say allah occupies every thing in space. praying to nature and saying we are praying the spirit of god is just a tool used to calm their thoughts about the reality of allah. even as i sit here typing my response...i am not sure of what to write...as i think, i can not come up with a clear answer it is because any thing we think is it self creation, all of our imagination is creation in a sense, and creation simply can not describe creator...can you take a microwave and tell me any thing about the inventor of the microwave?? not really..so it is useless to try to have a debate about allah and what is he exactly because we can think here for ever and never come up with the answer unless allah him self grants our brains to comprehend the truth....but its likely it wont happen so we can just drop it and just "try" to please him and obey his commands...the rest his upto him...and about idol worshipping, i think any time i want to make edison happy, i will tell my camcoder a joke rite???it doesnt make sense, the difference between the creation and creator can never cease to exist no matter how much we bring in philosophy in to our talks and talk about the spirit of god and stuff...the fact will remian...its the creator we should worship, not creations.....even if you dont want to be muslim, pray to the god, not his creations and then say hey, since god is every where no matter what i worship, i am praying to god....sorry it doesnt work that way
[quote]
Originally posted by Pagluu:
** Assalam Alaikum. Sure you can ask Allah directly. Asking through someone is also part of the same process. Today "some people" get their stomach tingling when they see anyone asking for help from Hazoor (saww), his paak Ahlaybayt (as), or the real Sahabas.
All these people are the result of new innovations in Islam.
The Nabbi/Ambiyas were sent for the prupose of linking HUMANS to ALLAH. Their help is Allah's help. Doing a dua to them is dua to Allah.
That is why in glorious-Quran, we see people going to the extent of doing Sajda to the Prophets. Still, its a sajda to no-oneelse but Allah (swt) himself. wassalam**
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sorry man, doing sajda to a prophet or tomb for ummah of mohammed SAW is NEVER NEVER allowed...simple....previous ummahs might have had allowed it...like some ummahs were allowed marriage among siblings and things like that....but later it became forbidden,
[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**Could our friends here explain to me what does the term "One Allah" means? Please - I know that there is no God but Allah but when you say "one Allah" - does it mean that Allah is one as in "one piece"?
Please explain!**
[/quote]
There is an answer!.
Allah is one (Wahid) it means he is the one who has no partner in Godhood. Imam Ahmad ar-Rifa^y said: Allah is one not as a number, but as One who has not partner. This clears Allah from having a wife, a son or daughter. And affimrs that Allah is the creator of everything.
Note: Brother, It's not correct to say: Can Allah be many things at many places at same time, etc and still be "one Allah" Because Allah is not in places, creations are in Places. The belief of Muslims is that Allah exists without a place, because he doesnt' need his creations and place is a creation. Jews and christians believe that Allah is in places, and that is blasphemy. Our belief is that Allah existed eternally before the place, that is without a place, and now he is as he was. That is the saying of Imam Aliy "Allah existed and there was no place, and now He is as he was. That is without a place.
[quote]
Originally posted by ThandyMazaq:
** sorry man, doing sajda to a prophet or tomb for ummah of mohammed SAW is NEVER NEVER allowed...simple....previous ummahs might have had allowed it...like some ummahs were allowed marriage among siblings and things like that....but later it became forbidden, **
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No doubt prostrating to an idol is explicit kufur. And prostrating to a tomb?? never heard of that, but for protstration and worship it is doubtlessly haram and kufur.
However, if one prostrated to a man for respect it is haram, but not kufur unless his sujud was worship. That is asserted from the action of Mu^ath Ibn Jabal who cam and prostrated to the prophet for respect, the Prophet said dont' do it, it's haram in my shari^ah. The hadith is related by ibn hiban. So if it was kufur, the Prophet would have told the sahahbiy that, but since Mu^aht only worships Allah, prostrated in for repect to the Prophet, that is not kufur, but UNLAWFUL FORBIDEN HARAM. Buf if one did that to an idol, wether for respect or worship it is explicit Kufur.
May Allah Protect us.
Asking Allah is what Muslims do. And Tawassul is one of the types of du^a' which is ASKING ALLAH ALONE FOR FULFILLMENT OF NEEDS, BY THE VIRTUE OF THE HONORABLE ONES.
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