CBC canada interviewed Taslima Nasrin.
I think this falls under the canada’s hate crime act.
hiHC14. What is the crime of wilful promotion of hatred?
Promoting hatred means making statements that strongly encourage people to hate a group because of its colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. The people making hate statements must mean to say them, but actual hatred need not result from those statements. However, the statements must be made in other than private conversation. (05.21.98)
PART 1
Evan Solomon: First of all, Taslima, I’m glad you’re here. Last time you were in Canada, I understand you were at Concordia University and what happened?
Taslima Nasrin: Many students who were Muslim, they protested. They didn’t like me to say anything against Islam so and I had to stop. The police took me away from the room.
ES: This was your first experience in Canada?
TN: Yeah.
ES: So it’s better this time?
TN: Yeah.
ES: All right, now most people who have heard of you in North America have heard that moniker that I’m sure you loathe now: the female Salman Rushdie. But this is because of this book here, Shame, that you wrote. I think you wrote it in '93, or it came out in '93 and then the mullahs in Bangladesh declared a fatwa.
TN: Yeah, the mullahs issued fatwa against me, is not for this book. This book was banned by the government -
ES: The Bangladeshi government -
TN: The Bangladeshi government banned Shame but I didn’t write anything against Islam in Shame. The fundamentalists issued fatwa against me because of my other books, what I wrote in other books against Islam and I criticized Islam and Islamic fundamentalists.
ES: So by the time you wrote Shame, you were not a popular person to the mullahs?
TN: No, no, no, not at all.
ES: You were a newspaper columnist and you were writing controversial columns in Bangladesh about women that were critical, also critical of Islam and I thought, you have to [correct], that in Bangladesh there’s a secular government.
TN: Secular government? No.
ES: That one, that it supposedly that there’s elections, there’s some kind of free speech there. But I guess there’s not free speech against the religion of Islam.
TN: You know in Bangladesh, the state religion is Islam so it’s not at all a secular government and we have seven centuries Shari’a law so there is no uniform civil code in which women can get equality and justice. So it’s not a secular government.
ES: Nothing at all? There’s no separation between church and state?
TN: No separation between state and religion. But you know in 1971, when we got independence, that time the we had secularism but that secularism [unclear] – secularism in Indian sub-continent means that you know equal rights for the, for all the people who have different faith. But secularism doesn’t mean we doubt religion or [sounds like] no religion in Indian sub-continent.
ES: This is interesting. In other words, you’re allowed to practice in whatever sect you are, but there is still a state religion which you cannot criticize?
TN: Yeah in Bangladesh now, yeah. Then afterwards, secularism was removed and state religion is Islam, state religion became Islam you know so that the minority community was Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, they don’t have much rights there in Bangladesh because if state religion is Islam, then you know only Muslims can get opportunity.
ES: But is it, doesn’t Islam in the Koran, at least in my understanding of it, isn’t it supposed to protect those who practice other religions outside of Islam? And for centuries it did?
TN: No.
ES: Jews, Christians that lived under Islamic law throughout history have been protected?
TN: I don’t think so because you know the non-Muslim had to pay tax, kind of tax because they are not Muslim in Islamic countries under Islam.
ES: But still allowed to practice.
TN: They are in Bangladesh they are allowed to practice, it is true, but you know still they are not allowed to criticize the Islam because Islam is the state religion. And also it is written in the Koran that if you are not Muslim, or if you are you know disbeliever, then you should be killed. Islam divides the world in two parts: Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam. Dar al-Harb means land of infidels and Dar al-Islam means land of Islam. So it’s the Muslim’s duty to make, to kill all the infidels or make them convert and to make all the land Dar al-Islam, means land of Islam.
ES: What about the idea of tolerance?
TN: There is no tolerance. There is no tolerance in Islam because, you know if it is, if a law say, because a law says that disbelievers would go to hell if you are a Muslim but you reject Islam and if you deny Allah or Prophet Mohammad, then you should be killed. You know fundamentalists issued fatwa against me. Many people, the so-called liberal Muslims, say that: no, it’s not real Islam, Islam is for peace, Islam doesn’t allow any fatwa. Actually, it is not true. The fundamentalists are following, are practicing Islam correctly. They issued fatwa against me because it is written in the Koran that [sounds like] apposite must be killed.
ES: But this is interesting because you have for years made this case that one ought not to talk about Muslims and fundamentalist Muslims as different, as fundamentally different groups. They are the same.
TN: They are not the same. Some Muslims are liberal, they are more moderate. It doesn’t mean that Islam is liberal or moderate. Some Muslims believe in equality and justice you know, they think that women should live as human beings.
ES: Humanism?
TN: Some Muslims believe that, yeah, because women are not treated as human beings you know especially Islam oppress women and Islam doesn’t allow women to live as human beings. They are just considered as slaves and sexual objects. But if any Muslim who you know there are many Muslims who actually don’t follow the Koran, every words of Koran, they can be moderate.
ES: But this is like defining Christianity or Judaism, according to only the most literal interpretation of either the five books of Moses, the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament when, in fact, a theologian may well argue, and for Islam as well, a theologian may argue: don’t read the book literally, one must follow the tradition as it evolves and therefore Christianity isn’t exactly what it says in the New Testament, Judaism has changed from a literal interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. And same with Islam and the Koran.
TN: I, there is no, no you know nobody can change the Koran or live or disobey the orders of Allah or Prophet Mohammad and call themselves Muslims. Actually, they are not allowed. Muslims are not allowed but some Muslims don’t follow the Koran or the Dar al-Harb and live their life and call themselves Muslims. OK but actually there is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism.
ES: There is no difference? But -
TN: No difference. Islamic fundamentalists practicing Islam correctly.
ES: The Taliban?
TN: Yeah, Taliban are real Muslims.
ES: [sounds like] Wahabiism as practiced in Saudi Arabia?
TN: Are real Muslims.
ES: Real Muslims, as opposed to someone here in Canada -
TN: But some Muslims, of course, you would find many Muslims who believe in equality between men and women. They are not real Muslims even though they claim they’re real Muslims -
ES: But maybe they’re part of a tradition [unclear] – it’s different, an interpretation that’s different.
TN: [sounds like] Right, you can you know how can you interpret positively when it is written in the Koran that men are superior and women are inferior? When it is written in the Koran that women, men are allowed to beat their women? So how could you know you interpret this positively?
ES: But there are people, for example -
TN: Suppose one thing: sun revolves around the earth. How could you interpret that? Actually it does not.
End of Part 1