Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

[hareem01]

Re: Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

Every basket has its bad eggs. Similarly every country has its Sarkozies.

[PyariCgudia]

@Sehrysh

I haven’t read all the posts - but I think it’s interesting that even in a progressive and inclusive country like Canada - there is a similar movement (see link): Muslim group moves to ban burka - The Globe and Mail

**Muslim group moves to ban burka **

Canadian lobbyists say garments are ‘medieval’ and ‘misogynist’ and they are urging Ottawa to take action

Middle Eastern garments designed to cover a woman’s face are “medieval” and “misogynist” symbols of extremism with no basis in Islam, said a Canadian Muslim lobby group as it urged Ottawa to ban the burka and the niqab.
The Muslim Canadian Congress Wednesday called on the federal government to prohibit the two garments in order to prevent women from covering their faces in public – a practice the group said has no place in a society that supports gender equality.
“To cover your face is to conceal your identity,” congress spokeswoman Farzana Hassan said in a telephone interview, describing the issue as a matter of public safety, since concealing one’s identity is a common practice for criminals.
The tradition of Muslim women covering their faces in public is a tradition rooted more in Middle Eastern culture than in the Islamic faith, Ms. Hassan added.
There is nothing in any of the primary Islamic religious texts, including the Koran, that requires women to cover their faces, she said — not even in the ultra-conservative tenets of Sharia law.
Considering the fact that women are in fact forbidden from wearing burkas in the grand mosque in Mecca, Islam’s holiest site, it hardly makes sense that the practice should be permitted in Canada, she said.
“If a government claims to uphold equality between men and women, there is no reason for them to support a practice that marginalizes women.”
The proposed ban would include the burka, an iconic head-to-toe gown with a mesh-like panel over the face that allows the wearer to see and to breathe, as well as the niqab — a veil that leaves only the eyes exposed.
Ms. Hassan said the ban would not extend to the hijab, a traditional headscarf that does not cover the face.
The proposed ban comes on the heels of reports that Sheikh Mohamed Tantawi, dean of Egypt’s al-Azhar university and the country’s highest Muslim authority, is poised to issue a fatwa, or religious edict, against the garments.
Media reports Monday said Sheikh Tantawi described the face coverings as “a custom that has nothing to do with the Islamic faith.”
Mohamed Elmasry, former president of the Canadian Islamic Congress, said he agrees the tradition has its roots in cultural customs rather than religious teachings, but that the issue is irrelevant in Canada where the practice is not widespread.
Mr. Elmasry disputed suggestions that the garments pose a security threat, saying only a minority of Muslim women living in Canada feel the need to conceal their features in public.
He said he believes those women should have the freedom to decide whether they wish to cover their faces, and that a ban would limit freedom of expression.
“People feel it’s part of their identity, people feel it’s part of their culture,” Mr. Elmasry said.
“It’s not for you and me to decide.”

I have my own opinion on the practice of wearing a burka/niqab which I would not impose on anyone else - but what concerns me is the slippery slope argument. If the states interferes in certain religious practices which it deems contrary to public interest - how far is that interference allowed to extend and who defines public interest? Morality and values are not homogenous - but whose values should hold sway?

It is a slippery state, but given the risks of terrorism and what crimes one can get away with in a niqaabi burqa/abaya, and the evidence that these clothes HAVE BEEN used in the past deviously, it is worth bringing a ban for the sake of safety, if nothing else. I’m sure no one here would want to be blown up by a bomb that was hidding in a burqa, nor would anywone want terrorist activities going on under a niqaab where you can’t even identify a person. It can be very dangerous.

Likewise, female genital mutilation is a practice in some African societies - is it ok for them to be practiced under Canadian Law?

Canada, and other western countries, have the ability to ban barbaric practices. You want to continue wearing the niqaab, then fine - move to a country that will permit it.

[Reason]

as US economy is gradually going down and its soft power is decreasing rapidly it is using the myth of war against terror to maintain its image of sole superpower of the world, as a last resort (perhaps.

muslims reaction are fallout of atoricities of USA. otherwise situation was entirely different in IRAQ.

Advanced economies always have business cycles of growth and decline. The US will be back to solid growth by the end of the next year.

No. There are many Americans who disagree with American foreign policy as well. Islamists are easy to spot: they openly state that they are Islamist. They are proud of their ideology and its program. Who are some examples of Islamists? Qazi Hussein, Mahmoud Ahmednijad, Ayman Al-Zahwari, Mullah Omar, whoever is the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Khalid Mishal, etc.

Islamists' beef with America goes far beyond foreign policy. There opposition is mainly ideological for America is the best example of liberal, democratic, secular values. If the issue were merely foreign policy why were there no "Death to Russia" marches in the Middle East/Pakistan-Afghanistan? Were Soviet flags burned? Did anyone fly planes into Moscow State University? Did many Muslims obsess about the USSR? For 40 years the USSR as also a superpower. However, unlike America it occupied Muslim majority areas (as well as non-Russian areas such as the Ukraine and Belarus) in the Soviet empire. Muslims complained often about US support for Israel during the 70's and 80's because Israel occupies Palestinian ares. Well, where was the outrage regarding the USSR? The USSR itself ruled 50 million Muslims and occupied 5 Muslim majority republics. The Soviets saved Israel in 1948 (through Czechslovkia) while the US did nothing. It was Israel's chief ally during Israel's early years while the US was aloof from it. Was the Soviet Union hated in the Muslim world for this? No.

The Iraq war is often cited as a reason for some Muslims hating America but that happened in 2003. What was the Muslim, and especially Islamist, beef with America for the previous half century? "Support" for dictators? Well, the Soviets did the same thing and few hated the Soviets. Let's look at Pakistan as a case study. Pakistan has had two dictators in the past 30 years. Who were its biggest allies? The US--and Saudi Arabia. Yet no country is revered more by Pakistanis than Saudi Arabia. China also "supported" Zia and Musharaaf. Pakistanis still like China. Moreover, what exactly is this "support"? The US gives Jordan $400 million a year. Is that enough to purchase Jordan? Get real. The US gives $0 to Saudi Arabia. Yet we are told the US "controls" Saudi Arabia, a nation which exports hatred of "kafirs" around the world--including even in America?

[QUOTE]
islamism irritates u coz u havent seen ppl who practice their relegion. as most of the ppl specially christian are lukeworm.

[/QUOTE]

I know dozens of people who practice Islam, including both of my parents. Regarding Christianity, about half of Christians in America go to church regularly and in the area surrounding my medium sized town we have nearly 100 churches. It is another Islamist myth that the "kafir" does not practice his or her religion.

[QUOTE]
I have my own opinion on the practice of wearing a burka/niqab which I would not impose on anyone else - but what concerns me is the slippery slope argument. If the states interferes in certain religious practices which it deems contrary to public interest - how far is that interference allowed to extend and who defines public interest? Morality and values are not homogenous - but whose values should hold sway?
[/QUOTE]

I am not worried about the slippery slope in this case. Islam and Mormonism allow polygamy, Rastafarians and a small Native American sect use marijuana for religious rituals. Yet we have had no problem banning polygamy and the consumption of marijuana in America--even when religion was cited in court cases to defend these practices. The principle here is this: you are free to believe whatever you want and practice your religion but when your actions hurt the public interest they are not allowed. Niqab is a public safety risk, not just regarding terrorism but regarding run-of-the-mill crimes such as burglaries. If someone walks into a bank and robs it and is wearing a niqab/burka how in the world do you identify and track down the culprit?

[happyheart]

Re: Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

lolz
i so want to write and anwser you Reason but i dont want to waist my time at the moment lolz
later i might not yet
i am being amused after reading your posts

[fat_spartan]

@PyariCgudia

It is a slippery state, but given the risks of terrorism and what crimes one can get away with in a niqaabi burqa/abaya, and the evidence that these clothes HAVE BEEN used in the past deviously, it is worth bringing a ban for the sake of safety, if nothing else. I'm sure no one here would want to be blown up by a bomb that was hidding in a burqa, nor would anywone want terrorist activities going on under a niqaab where you can't even identify a person. It can be very dangerous.

Likewise, female genital mutilation is a practice in some African societies - is it ok for them to be practiced under Canadian Law?

Canada, and other western countries, have the ability to ban barbaric practices. You want to continue wearing the niqaab, then fine - move to a country that will permit it.

That joke of a group calling for a ban is far from making it law. I highly doubt that they'll ban it here. I don't find their (Muslim Canadian Congress') argument convincing at all. I find that the argument of those opposing the ban is a much better one. If the women themselves choose to wear that attire, it doesn't affect/bother me at all.

Having lived in Canada my whole life, there are many things that I find are a greater threat to my personal safety/health than a woman in a burqa, abaya, niqab etc. Here are a few of them:

Guns
Alcohol
Cigarettes
Cars
Bikes
unsafe building structures
collapsings bridges/overpasses

I'm sure I could come up with more things, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[hareem01]

Re: Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

The tradition of covering face is a noble act when done out of haya and Islam cannot condemn a noble act.

[Dil_Pakistan]

@hareem01

The tradition of covering face is a noble act when done out of haya and Islam cannot condemn a noble act.

:k::k:

[happyheart]

@Dil_Pakistan

:k::k:

wow Dil
you taking part in the discussion
Ik ben er helemaal ondersteboven van… lolz

[Dil_Pakistan]

Re: Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

en ik ruik sarcasme
ik heb al een paar keer gepost in deze thread hoor

[diwana]

Re: Tantawi calls for a ban on niqab

dhj and reason just think everyday of these kind of topics, even dream at night how to troll next.

{People just need to stop answering to them since the intention is not to listen}

[happyheart]

@Dil_Pakistan

en ik ruik sarcasme
ik heb al een paar keer gepost in deze thread hoor

neee neeee
geen sarKasme geen sarcasme hoor
benn juist blij eerlijk waar.
Draag je zelf hoofdoek Dil?

[dhj786]

@fat_spartan

That joke of a group calling for a ban is far from making it law. I highly doubt that they'll ban it here. I don't find their (Muslim Canadian Congress') argument convincing at all. I find that the argument of those opposing the ban is a much better one. If the women themselves choose to wear that attire, it doesn't affect/bother me at all.

Having lived in Canada my whole life, there are many things that I find are a greater threat to my personal safety/health than a woman in a burqa, abaya, niqab etc. Here are a few of them:

Guns Alcohol Cigarettes Cars Bikes unsafe building structures collapsings bridges/overpasses

I'm sure I could come up with more things, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Funny you didn't mention terrorism in your list, but coming from someone who thinks IslamicAwakening isn't an extremist site, I digress.

I'm sure you're bothered by Muslim girls choosing not to wear a hijab, and a recent search on here proves that a few justified the murder of Aqsa Parvez two years ago. Remember that? Islamists often cry about the right to wear backward garb, yet they would see no problem with forcing non-covered women to do so, because they think they are whores.

[dhj786]

@PyariCgudia

Canada, and other western countries, have the ability to ban barbaric practices. You want to continue wearing the niqaab, then fine - move to a country that will permit it.

Why do they even come to a Western country in the first place?

Here's why they should make hijrah:

They don't like the West.
Many of them are indeed prominent at extremist gatherings (just take a look at any al-Muhajiroun gathering in England for proof)
The danda-yielding fanatics of Lal Masjid don the burqa.
They view non-Muslims with serious disdain
They believe uncovered women are whores and deserving of punishment
They do not have any love of the West in any way
They prefer to leech and breed like rats for their husbands than to contribute to society
They view everything about the West as kufr yet they continue to live off of benefits and naive Muslims on here would still support them.
People on here are more outraged over the banning of a niqab than over women being subjugated by Talibanic forces in Muslim countries
They also want the entire Western world to be subjugated into a dark age.

If they want to live the so-called Islaamic lifestyle, go move to Saudi Arabia. Why come here if you hate it so much? And on top of it, act like a victim in the process?

[Terrible_Guy]

@fat_spartan

That joke of a group calling for a ban is far from making it law. I highly doubt that they'll ban it here. I don't find their (Muslim Canadian Congress') argument convincing at all. I find that the argument of those opposing the ban is a much better one. If the women themselves choose to wear that attire, it doesn't affect/bother me at all.

Having lived in Canada my whole life, there are many things that I find are a greater threat to my personal safety/health than a woman in a burqa, abaya, niqab etc. Here are a few of them:

Guns Alcohol Cigarettes Cars Bikes unsafe building structures collapsings bridges/overpasses

I'm sure I could come up with more things, but I'll leave it at that for now.

I've also grown up in Canada. Having a wife who wears burqa and niqaab (out of her own free will), having other family members who also wear it and knowing many others whose wives also wear it (all of them by their own choice), I can say that it's quite harmless. I'd also like to add the following to your list:

Trucks
Drugs
Dogs
Racoons
Skunks
snow banks
slippery roads
slippery driveways
slippery stairs
wet floors (especially when unmarked)
fresh paint (especially when unmarked)
senile old ladies lecturing you about forcing your wife to wear burqa
insane women lecturing you about how you're insulting women in this country(well these last two points don't scare me. They're just annoying)

[happyheart]

@Terrible_Guy

I’ve also grown up in Canada. Having a wife who wears burqa and niqaab (out of her own free will), having other family members who also wear it and knowing many others whose wives also wear it (all of them by their own choice), I can say that it’s quite harmless. I’d also like to add the following to your list:

Trucks
Drugs
Dogs
Racoons
Skunks
snow banks
slippery roads
slippery driveways
slippery stairs
wet floors (especially when unmarked)
fresh paint (especially when unmarked)
senile old ladies lecturing you about forcing your wife to wear burqa
insane women lecturing you about how you’re insulting women in this country(well these last two points don’t scare me. They’re just annoying)

[Maverick_27]

And how do you know how Christians practice living in Karachi? Besides, a lot of Pakistani Muslims would rather see Christians wiped out from Pakistan as evident by the mob reaction of them, yet cry persecution from the "kuffar".

man u dont have ne real & indepth info about islam and pakistan. i think u r spoiling ur time and of others as well.

many of my school friends were christian. i m still in contact wid them. my sister works in beauty parlour and many of her colleagues are christian. there is colony near my locality which christain dominated. there are around 7 chuches in 2 km radious of the area where i live.

so i know the things and not ignorant as u r in this respect.................. and we have respect for them and have cordial relationship wid them.

so dont say baseless things .............. beside there are problems here but u r trying to magnify them manifold.

[Maverick_27]

@diwana

dhj and reason just think everyday of these kind of topics, even dream at night how to troll next.

{People just need to stop answering to them since the intention is not to listen}

i think reason is good at least he has got knowledge and present his point of view logically.

As far as dhj is concerned i m wid u ................ lols

[Maverick_27]

@Reason

Advanced economies always have business cycles of growth and decline. The US will be back to solid growth by the end of the next year.

i think every economy whether it is developed or devloping have cycles.

bu the point here is that Ameica economy was ruling the world with its software. the 2nd biggest economy Japan have no political influence over the world. after the fall of USSR everybody accepted the US as the sole super power of the world.

but wid the rise of China as a third largest economy the balance of power is improving between east and west . beside china is not chicken as japan is. beside the USSR economy is gaining monmentum thanks to the huge oil and gas reserve.
then there come India, Brazil and gulf economies.

in the past what arab wud do, they put all the money in european and american banks and gets a nominal return on their deposits. but wid that money westen enterprenuers do the business( i m not saying that western ppl did not have the money but the gulf money was a sizable part of their liquidity.) but now they have started doing business wid their own money instead of putting into western banks. they have started setting up industrial zone in their country like industrial zone of Damam and al khobar in Saudi arabia. the same is the case wid UAE and Qatar.

the body spray i use has made in UAE. they are factories in UAE and KSA that are making FMCG. they have started setting their own banks and financial institutions. many of the leading banks in pakistan are owned by gulf investors. same is the case in telecom sector. Warid , Mobilnik, Ufone are owned by them. even warid is expanding its business in many countries of africa and asia.

an economy has a given potentail and resources. when the utilisation of the resouces improves the ecomoy grows untill the point is reached where the utilisation of resources reaches the optimum level, ecomomy becomes super economy. but after that there is no further growth. ( this is an economics concept probably Capital Return Ratio............. i dont exactly remember). After that Point "Capital Flight" start towards the developing economy where the capital return is more. this is as natural as business cycle.

and I think econmy is now subject to that capital flight.

U must have witnessed that even US companies are focusing more on their subsidiaries that are in Asia and latin America. Many of the companies that were in loss in US and European region but their branches in Asia and Latin America have posted sizeable profits.

as per New York Times Report US econmy GDP was 34% of world GDP and in 2007 it was merely 27%. now u can gauge the trend urself.

US economy will definitely bounce back but it will not be able to achieve that unique position that it had in the past.

So US need to realise these changes as soon as possible so that it cud get a better position in dynamically changing world through diplomacy and not through force (as US is using in IRAQ and afghanistan) and stop entagling in the other countries affairs.

[fat_spartan]

@dhj786

Funny you didn't mention terrorism in your list, but coming from someone who thinks IslamicAwakening isn't an extremist site, I digress.

I didn't see anything "extreme" on that site, so I just said it like I saw it. I browsed it for a couple of minutes and read through 6 or 7 topics and what I saw was certainly not objectionable.

[quote]

I'm sure you're bothered by Muslim girls choosing not to wear a hijab, and a recent search on here proves that a few justified the murder of Aqsa Parvez two years ago. Remember that? Islamists often cry about the right to wear backward garb, yet they would see no problem with forcing non-covered women to do so, because they think they are whores.
[/QUOTE]

I haven't said anything about Muslim girls not choosing to wear hijab, but if you will search such topics, you'll find many people of the opinion that girls shouldn't be forced to wear it if they don't want to. So I also say that I don't think women who want to wear burqa, abaya, niqab should be forced not to if they so choose.

[fat_spartan]

@Terrible_Guy

I've also grown up in Canada. Having a wife who wears burqa and niqaab (out of her own free will), having other family members who also wear it and knowing many others whose wives also wear it (all of them by their own choice), I can say that it's quite harmless. I'd also like to add the following to your list:

Trucks Drugs Dogs Racoons Skunks snow banks slippery roads slippery driveways slippery stairs wet floors (especially when unmarked) fresh paint (especially when unmarked) senile old ladies lecturing you about forcing your wife to wear burqa insane women lecturing you about how you're insulting women in this country(well these last two points don't scare me. They're just annoying)

Good additions.