I agree raw numbers can be bad statistics. But arithemtical proportions will not always accomplish the equitable comparisons either. Because there are qualitative differences between the two countries.
Pakistan is what, a confessed muslim country now though it did not start out that way in 1947 constitutionally. Therefore by definition they have struck the minorities. India has not done that. (this is something ratio-proportions cannot highlight but is the very fulcrum of a lot of other acts). [btw I use the term qualitative to distinguish from quantitative rather than cast any superior-inferior type of assertion]
While this of course is tragic... Whats laughable is the Indians on this forum trying to trumpet this tragedy as some from of vindication for themselves...
Lest we forget, despite having laws that seek to protect minorities, India has been seriously lacking in following those laws in letter or spirit.
From Delhi to Gujrat to Orisa, Indians are steeped in blood of Muslims Sikhs and Chrisitians...
As an example of Indian extremism, why not take the words of Indias former PM: "Wherever Muslims live, they don’t like to live in co-existence with others, they don’t like to mingle with others; and instead of propagating their ideas in a peaceful manner, they want to spread their faith by resorting to terror and threats. The world has become alert to this danger.
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Such hate speech in such a free country!
The fact is that as the Hindutva and other Hindu extremists nationalists have clearly asserted on may occasions, Muslims in India are welcome to live in India and may even prosper, so long as the recognize that it is a Hindu nation and that their prosperity depends entirely on the good will of the Hindu majority.
If anyone questions whether there are many successful muslims in India they should just extract their heads from wherever it is buried, get rid of their hatred and jealousy of India and make honest attempts to understand facts objectively.
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LOL... Well im sure the 160 MILLION Muslims of India will thank you for this small mercy!
They are practically falling all over themselves in praise of you! What great Humanitarians you Indians are!
I agree raw numbers can be bad statistics. But arithemtical proportions will not always accomplish the equitable comparisons either. ...
....]
That's fair.
....Because there are qualitative differences between the two countries.
....]
I am sure statistics could be used to prove this assertion.
However I highly suggest that intellectual Indians like yourself must make a pilgrimage to Pakistan and see it by yourself before etching the opinions in the proverbial stone.
It is not that hard to apply for a visa and take a train or plane to visit, and see, and touch.
Make sure that your trip is a pilgrimage (aka a tour to learn) and not a method to impinge upon the Paks that they have been wrong all along.
The problem with both Pakistanis and Indians is that they are ignorant of the people that exist just on the other side of the border.
Due to this ignorance, the media and the extremists, turn the other side into monsters and demons.
And that my friend is the driving force in many many Indian and Pak elite.
p.s. Paks did make mistakes and you would see many Paks actively opposing the Islamism at this very moment.
However if you truly want to do a comparison of populations, do so from December 1947 onwards. Then you will realize that we didn't do as badly as the numbers are made to show.
Please google and see the Indian Sensus report 2000. (You can get even district wise population) You can See that the Panjabi Muslim Population is not zero but they are almost 5% (East Punjab includes Haryana ,himajal and punjab states).
Most muslims in east punjab are migrant labourers from states like UP and bihar and are ethnically not punjabi.
While this of course is tragic... Whats laughable is the Indians on this forum trying to trumpet this tragedy as some from of vindication for themselves...
Lest we forget, despite having laws that seek to protect minorities, India has been seriously lacking in following those laws in letter or spirit.
From Delhi to Gujrat to Orisa, Indians are steeped in blood of Muslims Sikhs and Chrisitians...
As an example of Indian extremism, why not take the words of Indias former PM:
"Wherever Muslims live, they don’t like to live in co-existence with others, they don’t like to mingle with others; and instead of propagating their ideas in a peaceful manner, they want to spread their faith by resorting to terror and threats. The world has become alert to this danger.
"
Such hate speech in such a free country!
The fact is that as the Hindutva and other Hindu extremists nationalists have clearly asserted on may occasions, Muslims in India are welcome to live in India and may even prosper, so long as the recognize that it is a Hindu nation and that their prosperity depends entirely on the good will of the Hindu majority.
Thank you for your token freedom HINDU stan.
these are far and between transgressions in India as opposed to the routine and systematic anihilation that has occurred in Pakistan.
why are you expecting from and criticising perfection from India? It is like if you reject advise from somebody who only scored 98% in a test in which you scored only 20% because the other guy missed 100 by 2%.
these are far and between transgressions in India as opposed to the routine and systematic anihilation that has occurred in Pakistan.
why are you expecting from and criticising perfection from India? It is like if you reject advise from somebody who only scored 98% in a test in which you scored only 20% because the other guy missed 100 by 2%.
Sikhs have lived in that area of Pakistan for centuries... So they choose to live there for all these years even after partition despite the so called systematic anihilation as you call it???
Trust me, we have never had anything on the scale of the Delhi Sikh riots, or the Bbari Mosque riots, or the Gujrat riots, the mass murder during the Khalistan movement, the multiple documneted cases of Human riots violations, disappearance and murders in Indian occupied Kashmir, or the multiple other low scale riots in India.
Thats not to imply that it hasnt happened, but we are in no way comparable to India...
Since Partition, there have been countless THOUSANDS of minority victims in India. And many times these mass genocides were aided and abetted by those in power.
So its laughable that you can even attempt to compare Pakistan to India.
We may not have the laws in place, but thank god we dont have Gujrats weighing on our conscience.
And I dont expect perfection from India... Indians expect perfection and claim perfection. You make lofty claims, and trumpet false accomplishments.
Pakistan is what it is. We do our best, it you Indians that beat your chests despite the truth.
And yes, you flatter yourself.
Forget advice from India... India is more like a country that was to lazy to even show up for the exam, and then lied to his parents to cover up his shame.
A much better example would be countries with real histories of Human rights.
these are far and between transgressions in India as opposed to the routine and systematic anihilation that has occurred in Pakistan.
why are you expecting from and criticising perfection from India? It is like if you reject advise from somebody who only scored 98% in a test in which you scored only 20% because the other guy missed 100 by 2%.
And its pathetic that you attempt to gloss over your nations genocides with such callousness. Those thousands of people that have lost their lives wouldnt agree with your assesment of India.
Med911 - you may want to believe these stories to live with yourself but the truth is otherwise. A majority of the attack on minorities in India can be either directly or indirectly traced back to unholy tactics employed by Pakistan. But still that is the 2%. On the other hand look at your country's record. Minorities have pretty much vanished, sects of islam are bombing each other. You guys just cannot deal with diversity without violent hacking.
every one here is missing Gurdaspur district here; my family migrated from that district which was a muslim dominated district (more than 80 %) and was supposed to be a part of Pakistan until the fag end when the British gave it to the Indians. Where as muslims were the biggest group in amritsar and more than 50 % in Delhi, if someone can get the access to 1941 census of India that would give you guys the exact situation of Indian Punjab. Now there's almost 0 % muslims in Indian Punjab, similarly the Sikhs and Hindus of pakistani Punjab migrated to India, since population of Punjab is over 60 % of the total population of Pakistan therefore it now seems that very few non muslims live in Pakistan now...although non muslims from the rest of the provinces didnt migrate to that extent, thank goodness some scum on earth like advani migrated from pakistan, mubarakbad to India for that...
Here I thought you were one of the sensible Indians on this forum…
“A majority of the attack on minorities in India can be either directly or indirectly traced back to unholy tactics employed by Pakistan..”
What?!?!?
So the Gujrat riots were actually insitigated by Pakistan?!?!?
Minorities have vanished from Pakistan? Would you please enlighten us with some background here… Can you provide any census data regarding the minority make up of WEST Pakistan within each province after partition, and compare it with how it is today?
If you cant provide the needed data to back up your claims, why should anyone take you seriously? Last I checked, we havent had any mass genocides of Hindus or Sikhs as you have had in India. So did the minorities magically disappear on their own?
Give the relevant data and then talk.
You seem to be regurgitating the same India propaganda tripe that you have been fed all your life.
Hint, Pakistan didnt murder 3000 Sikhs. Nor was Pakistan responsible for the relatively recent Gujrat toll of 2000 plus innocent people. You need to acknowledge your crimes my friend.
As for the sects killing each. Welcome to the Muslim world. This has been going on for centuries and is certainly not limited to Pakistan.
^Quite lame, the judge was a hindu and an indian, and known to be an honest man. Only extremists like BJP and RSS doubted him.
Not quite but only jamaatis loved him and a % of muslims who were very willing to buy any theory to put blame even for the train burning on hindus. I should remind you that I have always maintained even if they did it collective responsibility shows jaahiliyat and tribal behavior as in aftermath..
your ignorance is quite clear when you say only extremists doubted him.
There have been 3-4 commissions on this. First Nanavati commission which has repeatedly come out confirming what the stated position is that train was attacked by a mob of muslims pelting stones and burnt the train. People were not allowed to escape. Think of a stopped train with no automatic doors and still no one escaped. Justice enquiry that came out in 2008 clearly spells the conspirators and how it started.
Banerjee's report has been rubbished by most in the country and declared unconstitutional as well. Independent reports that came out in 2008 were clear in what went on in the attack.
I understand your compulsion on accepting one part of the story because you seem to believe that muslims could not have done this. No wonder there are those who believe no act of terrorism could ever be carried out by a muslim. On the contrary there is no doubt that hindu mobs killed many more muslims than muslims did after the incident. Unlike you I don't want to live in a shell of hypocrisy.
As to population of minorties in Pakistan, give me the reference to this claim from Pakistan census and i will answer you
My question to you again rephrased before I cite my sources..what is your assessment on minority numbers in pakistan increased/decreased or organic/inorganic change? Thank you
I too understand your compulsion to accept nanvati report instead of Banerjee, bcoz one way or another you want to justify murdering muslims. This is the opinion of Ram Puniyani on Nanvati repor
thttp://indianmuslims.in/nanavati-report-godhra-tragedy-sabarmati-express/
I am not an expert on demographics of Pakistan, don’t expect me to research every wild claim made by anyone. Put up the numbers from census of Pakistan and i can give my opinion.
by the way for information remaining sikh abducted were recovered by security forces in an operation a day or two ago.
this should show you our resolve to protect so called religious minority (refering so called because based on my belief no one should be a referred minority in his own country based on cast creed or color).
