Talaaq talaaq talaaq

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

i first wanted to put this in the Culture Forum because there’s a tendency in this Forum to throw judgements on people based upon what they write. i hope i will be proven wrong this time. If you are going to write anything hurtful or mean, don’t bother posting it because you will only make me extremely happy to ignore your comments which you took the time to type out in detail.

Has anyone viewed the movie “Nikaah”, (Salma Agha/Raj Babbar, released in 1982). Any mature, serious, non-judgemental thoughts on it? It left quite an impression upon me, especially the last scene where all three main characters are in the same room. The lines that the character of “Nilofer” stated, i think - you can’t help but have a strong impression left on you after she states them. Of course there’s the symbolism of her standing with the words “Allah” and “Muhammad”, in Arabic, hanging behind her on the wall, and the wall-hanging of the Kaabah - versus the two guys (former husband and current husband) standing physically on either side of her.

According to Islam, if the husband wants to give his wife a divorce, then does he have to ask her permission beforehand? What happens if she says ‘no’? What about the wife - what does she have to do, according to Islam, if she wants a divorce? What if the husband refuses it? Does the wife have the right to keep ALL of the maher if she so desires? What if, as in Nilofer’s case, she didn’t want to have a divorce with Wasim. According to Islam, how can someone be divorced if they say “talaaq talaaq talaaq” successively - i mean, how will the divorce be legal in Islam’s perspective if it is stated successively three times? Don’t you have to wait three months (i may be wrong about the three months’ time so no one jump down my throat). And is it still legal if the ‘talaaq’ pronouncements are made in a state of anger - as i think was the case in Wasim’s situation, (i know it’s a movie but i have heard of stuff like this happening). In that particular scenario, is the proclamation of ‘divorce’ still valid?

Otherwise, apart from the above, any general thoughts on the movie and its reflections on how Muslims tend to interpret Islamic law and Shariat, in patriarchal societies, would be welcome.

ps- Please keep your judgements about my character to yourself - muchas gracias.

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I don't remember the movie, per se; infact I don't think I ever saw the movie (heard about it though).

At the same time, I don't think there is a single unified stance on divorce amongst the whole of Islamic world. There are different views, depending on who you ask. What I believe is the most convincing is as follows (pls note that it may not be what you believe in) :)

When a husband decides to leave his wife, its called "talaaq" (divorce). When a wife decides to leave her husband, its called "khulaa". The difference, ofcourse is that if a husband gives divorce, he can not ask for the wedding gift back and also has to pay naan-nafqa (alimony and support) to the wife. On the other hand, if the wife asks for "khulaa", she will have to return the wedding gift and is no more entitled to any alimony.

As to the actual divorce, saying "talaaq, talaaq, talaaq" three times in one sitting does NOT constitute divorce. Atleast not according to the view I believe is the right one. This will only constitute ONE divorce. During the following four months, the two can recocnile. Having sexual relations is one evidence that they have reconciled. If they don't, and the husband pronounces talaaq at three separate occassion, then the divorce becomes final, and the spouses can no longer engage in sexual relationships. During the four months, the husband should treat the wife with respect and not force her to leave the house. If she wishes to leave on her own, thats her choice. After the divorce is finalized, the husband has to pay an appropriate alimony to the wife.

The husband and wife can not marry each other after they have divorced, except if the wife remarries to someone else and he gives her divorce of his own accord. Its called "halaala". I am not sure how Islamic it is, but it is one way, Islam pronounces the seriousness of divorce and to make sure that neither party takes it non-seriously.

There is definitely another viewpoint which considers saying the word "talaaq" three times, as constituting a valid talaaq. The basis for this ruling originate from the rule of Hazrat Umar (Razi Allah). During that time, people were engaged in frivilous arguments during which they will threaten their wife with divorce. To drive home the seriousness of their words, the Khalifa ruled that if anyone says the word "talaaq" three times to their wife, the divorce will become final and then the couple can no longer engage in a marital relationship. I am not sure what is the sharia basis for this ruling and why it is no longer considered the best evidence for the rule.

Hope it helps.

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age old issue i am keep hearing since my childhood everywhere from jung newspaper to each and every digest i read in pakistan!

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And, by the way, after a divorce is final, the wife can not marry right away. She has to pass the "idaat". Its a few months time (not sure how long). The reason is to make sure that the wife is not pregnant, and if she is pregnant to have the pregnancy show. This ensures that if she remarries, the paternity of the child is clearly established.

There are a lot of other rules, governing the whole issue of marriage and divorce. Infact there are whole books written just on the topic of these two issues as addressed in Islam. It will be almost impossible to attempt to answer all facets of this issue in one or two posts. If anyone is interested, they should research the internet, or look up a good book. Ask a scholar, if you so desire.

In Pakistan, the family laws are drafted, as a means to modify the British Common Law, so there is a court process involved in divorce. While some aspects of it are modified in terms of Islamic sharia, there are many parts of it, which correspond to the Common law; hence it does not represent a totally islamic process.

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Re: Talaaq talaaq talaaq

.

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these type of issues will continue to revolve in a cycle :~)

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[quote]
What I believe is the most convincing is as follows (pls note that it may not be what you believe in)
[/quote]

It turned out to be exactly what i believe in. As long as it is something Islamic, NOT Pakistani/desi in origin, it's something that i understand and i will respect. When culture steps into the frame, that's when i have difficulties accepting certain customs.

[quote]
When a husband decides to leave his wife, its called "talaaq" (divorce). When a wife decides to leave her husband, its called "khulaa". The difference, ofcourse is that if a husband gives divorce, he can not ask for the wedding gift back and also has to pay naan-nafqa (alimony and support) to the wife. On the other hand, if the wife asks for "khulaa", she will have to return the wedding gift and is no more entitled to any alimony.
[/quote]

Faisal Bhai,

i'm a bit confused about the difference between the wedding gift and the alimony. When you state "wedding gift", is that referring to some tangible material item - for eg., a wedding ring? If that was the wedding gift, then the wife would have to return that IF she was the one who had initiated the khulaa. Right? (BTW, 'talaaq' means, roughly, a separation i think. Does anyone know what 'khulaa' means?). Anyways, alimony would be pre-determined prior to the nikaah ceremony, right - both parties agree to a specific amount? In the movie, the Imam stated the amount of the alimony during the nikaah ceremony. i guess amongst Muslim Pakistani families (or at least among the families that obey this Islamic priniciple), the amount of the alimony is fixed before marriage date.

[quote]
The husband and wife can not marry each other after they have divorced, except if the wife remarries to someone else and he gives her divorce of his own accord. Its called "halaala". I am not sure how Islamic it is, but it is one way, Islam pronounces the seriousness of divorce and to make sure that neither party takes it non-seriously.
[/quote]

You are right, it IS Islamic. Verse 230 from Surah Baqarah: Then, if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain lawful for him after this divorce, unless she marries another husband. In the movie, the Imam is shown as telling the first husband that if he wants to remarry Nilofer, she has to first do the above (marry someone else, who will then give her a divorce of his own accord). And one of the more memorable lines of the movie is when the Imam states that this is a stipulation so that divorce is not an issue treated lightly by husbands, not intended to be a tool to remove one's wife from the house upon a guy's whim, but only seriously utilized as a last resort when all other options for mutual reconciliation have been exhausted. i was really glad they made the Imam say those lines - Islamic priniciples were treated superior to cultural, patriarchal customs.

And thank you, Faisal Bhai, for your taking the time to write all of that out and explain it to me. i hope aap ko iss ka sawaab milay Insha'Allah. Out of five replies, two that were extremely relevant to the questions i had raised, without insulting me. That is also a part of our faith - to answer the honest questions/concerns when someone raises them, to the best of one's ability. Thank you for that, i really appreciate it.

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BTW, You should watch the movie - it's really interesting from a sociological point of view...quite informative as well on issues related to Islam.

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The whole procedure of Talaaq(divorce) is defined in holly quran in simplest of words, even a dummy can understand. One sura (talaaq ) is dedicated for this serious issue and more details are in surat Nisa.
Giving three talaaq in one sitting is direct and clear voilation of quranic orders So anybody doing this is committing Gunnah-e-kabeera
As for the application of three Talaaq in one time is concerned, Different fiqqah have their own point of view.

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Just wondering if my reply insulted u in any sense? I was just reminding myself and with the understanding of Maulana Yousuf Ludhiyaanvi on these issues BUT found redundant to post it again when Faisal posted it already:flower1:

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I agree with Faisal…:k:

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Nadia... "wedding gift" is different from alimony, ofcourse. You may have heard the term "mehr" or "haqq mehr". That is the wedding gift. It has a very sacred position in Islam. This is the gift, the husband gives to his wife. Ideally, and I repeat ideally, it should be given to the wife at the time of wedding, before the marriage is consumated (any sexual relationship takes place). However, there are certain exceptions. If the wife permits, the husband can delay the payment of wedding gift for a future date or on-demand. Islam does not specify the value of this wedding gift; but it recommends that it should be consistent with the financial position and status of the husband. It can be in the form of money, jewelary, gold or whatever. Usually, its a combination (Rs 3 lacs plus 40 tola gold etc)

So, in case of divorce, the wife keeps this wedding gift. In case of khulaa, she has to return it.

Alimony is something which the husband pays to the wife when he divorces her. There are many ways it can be paid. It can be a lump sum payment, or regular payments. Again, it has to be in line with the financial position and status of the husband. There is no hard and fast rule or amount specified. I can be wrong, though.

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What if a hisband cheats and the woman wants a divorse. Isn;t alimony warranted in that case?

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And no... alimony is not decided at the time of nikah. Only haqq mehr (wedding gift) is decided at that time. Logically speaking, it will be very odd to be talking about amounts to be paid at divorce, when you are marrying someone. :-)

However, one of the optional questions in the nikahnama (optional meaning, if you don't answer it, its fine, and it reverts to default) is whether the husband has given the right of divorce to the wife. The default answer is "no". However, if both parties agree at the time of nikah, they can answer it "yes". Which means, that the wife can initiate "divorce". This is different from "khulaa"; as it involves the issue of whether the wife retains the wedding gift or not. Most weddings I attend, this question remains unanswered, so it defaults to that husband did not give the wife the right to divorce. Very few girls are aware of this question or are willing to make a stand at that point that they want this right. It may very well be considered unseemly, rude, suspicious, feminist, or all of the above. :-)

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Can you explain the the concept of "asking the husband for the right to ask for divorce?"

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
What if a hisband cheats and the woman wants a divorse. Isn;t alimony warranted in that case?
[/QUOTE]
She can ask for a divorce... and if the husband agrees and divorces her, than she is not required to return the wedding gift, and is also entitled to alimony.

"Khulaa" comes in to the picture, when the husband refuses to divorce the wife. In which case the woman can petition for "khulaa" and agrees to give up the wedding gift and alimony.

However, the whole process of divorce and khulaa are not so straight-forward as it may seem. There are extensive arbitration arrangements which are available and recommended, to try and see if both parties can come to a mutual agreement. If everything fails, than the law takes over.

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^ which law?

Also, why would someone give up their right for alimony in wake of the transgression.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Can you explain the the concept of "asking the husband for the right to ask for divorce?"
[/QUOTE]
As I said, the critical difference is who gets to keep the wedding gift. The nikahnama has the question, whether the husband has delegated the right of divorce to the wife. If its answered as yes, it means, that any point subsequent to the wedding, the wife can "divorce" the husband and keep the wedding gift and is entitled to alimony. If she is unsatisfied with the marriage, she now has two options: give divorce to her husband, or ask for "khulaa" and return the gift. In both cases, she has to have good reasons which she has to explain to the judge/qaazi or whoever is deciding on the case.

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^ are their similar constraints on the husband? Seems a bit onerous on the women. Considering most muslim women do not work around the world and would be simply a the mercy of the husband.

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You've explained it marvellously. Thanks, Faisal Bhai. i really appreciate the time (and accurate information) invested in the responses above.

For once i can ask a question in this Forum and actually receive some logical, serious replies without people jumping down my throat and judging me.

Thank you.