Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
It is a matter of opinion. If you believe I am wrong, I can live with that.
We know what President Musharaf has achieved for Pakistan and saved it from collapse. War on terror is not the only thing one needs to consider. Think of the unprecedented economic growth, the free media, the free judiciary that Pakistan now has.
God Bless President Musharaf. God Bless Pakistan. 
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
yazdi, aalsi ka keema na banna yar...
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
I used to support musharraf but not anymore, not after seeing what is being done to our country under his rule and I've said that before as well.
It's nice to see many has been mush supporter voicing against him and realizing how he's steering our country toward anarchy by pitting our armed forces against our own people and creating this bloodbath in the nation
But unfortunatly, though, mere forum board posts are not going to help us. This realization needs to be awakened inside the mass population in Pakistan and the leaders alike to throw away this dictator. Luckly for us this is already happening. We just need one right oppertunity and hopefully that come rather soon.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Here is what say in order of priority, is what Pakistan needs:
1 - Domestic policies that are not dependent on the foreign policy of western countries.
2 - Democratic reforms in politics i.e. political parties should be disqualified if they do not choose their party leaders through democratic means.
3 - Democratic elections.
4 - Economic growth is not justified unless it is accompanied with a decrease in unemployment in the country. Need industrialization. We are an agricultural state however we cannot root out feudalism unless we provide alternative industrialization to agriculture economic growth.
5 - Educational reforms.
6 - We need to create a structure in our relgious education, there should be no titles as Mullah and Maulana and etc etc. If anyone is going to carry around a religious title, it should be earned through the proper academic means for recognition. This is just to change the perception where people start gravitating towards people carrying these titles regardless of their stature in reality. This would dissipate their control over the masses in time and pave way for everyone coming to common ground in understanding their religion.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Quite simply this is not a Bash-Musharraf thread, where we need to post jhandas and post rhetorical slogans to prove a point. This is a discussion on what is in the best interests of our country; and who should be the ones making that decision. I believe a majority of our whole nation should be the ones deciding what they want, and not a clique of so-called "educated Pakistanis" who are under the wrong impression, that "we know best". We need to get out of personality cult syndrome and talk about a system.
Musharaf will die at some point, like all human beings, and then what. What system do we have to carry us forward? From one general to another?
Whether you are running a country or a company, you need to plan for, what I call, hit-by-the-truck scenario. No one is indispensable. What happens if one person is hit by the truck? Will the Company shut down? Will the country fold up? No, of course not. That is why you need a system to carry things forward. Personality-based military rule is not a workable system in the long run. Sustained democracy is the only system that can work.
In the history of Pakistan, I think, we have not given democracy a chance for longer than 10 years at a time (give or take a few). A 10-year old is a kid. Thats our democracy. What we have done as a nation is to give this 10-year old a failing grade and killed him. Then after some years of experimenting with another military ruler, we realize that no, lets bring the baby of democracy back. You kill it again in 8 years by citing failures. Then you say "see, that kid failed". This is moronic! Look at USA, one of the most stable democracies in the world right now. You look at some of their past presidents and in 231 years of democracy, you will see some real choice pieces in the process. Some were absolute disasters. So what? You, as a nation, learn and move on. You don't discard the system.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
The suicide bombing in Pakistan that we are seeing now is not created by Musharaf. These desperate terrorists would ofcourse carry out these acts of desperation if they know there is someone there trying to defeat them.
It was created to a very large extent by Musharraf in so far that he did not root out the lal masjid evil when it arose. Instead he let it fester to further his own interest and to divert the attention away from CJ saga. Shame on him.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
It was created to a very large extent by Musharraf in so far that he did not root out the lal masjid evil when it arose.
So Lal Masjid is responsible for thousands of Muslim terrorists that have taken refuge in Pakistan?
Ehsan bhai, sometime you do make quite amusing comments. :)
If it had not been for BB and PPP creating Taliban, Pakistan would not have many of the problems it faces today.
God Bless President Musharaf for saving Pakistan from the dire starites it had been in after the ZAB, Zia, BB and NS years.
Pakistan is more democratic now than it has ever been. It is a shame that it has taken an Army General to bestow democratic processes, free media, and free judicary in Pakistan.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
So Lal Masjid is responsible for thousands of Muslim terrorists that have taken refuge in Pakistan?
Ehsan bhai, sometime you do make quite amusing comments. :)
If it had not been for BB and PPP creating Taliban, Pakistan would not have many of the problems it faces today.
God Bless President Musharaf for saving Pakistan from the dire starites it had been in after the ZAB, Zia, BB and NS years.
Pakistan is more democratic now than it has ever been. It is a shame that it has taken an Army General to bestow democratic processes, free media, and free judicary in Pakistan.
I dont think I am the one making amusing comments in PA. Shame you didnt address the issue of how lal masjid's issue was used to further his own personal agenda at the expense of Pakistan. lal Masjid certainly has emboldened the terrorists in Pakistan and yes Mush is directly responsible for that?
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
lal Masjid certainly has emboldened the terrorists in Pakistan and yes Mush is directly responsible for that?
No it hasn't, and no he is not. He has saved Pakistan.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Good post Gohan! I felt the same way…
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Quite simply this is not a Bash-Musharraf thread, where we need to post jhandas and post rhetorical slogans to prove a point. This is a discussion on what is in the best interests of our country; and who should be the ones making that decision. I believe a majority of our whole nation should be the ones deciding what they want, and not a clique of so-called "educated Pakistanis" who are under the wrong impression, that "we know best". We need to get out of personality cult syndrome and talk about a system.
Musharaf will die at some point, like all human beings, and then what. What system do we have to carry us forward? From one general to another?
Whether you are running a country or a company, you need to plan for, what I call, hit-by-the-truck scenario. No one is indispensable. What happens if one person is hit by the truck? Will the Company shut down? Will the country fold up? No, of course not. That is why you need a system to carry things forward. Personality-based military rule is not a workable system in the long run. Sustained democracy is the only system that can work.
In the history of Pakistan, I think, we have not given democracy a chance for longer than 10 years at a time (give or take a few). A 10-year old is a kid. Thats our democracy. What we have done as a nation is to give this 10-year old a failing grade and killed him. Then after some years of experimenting with another military ruler, we realize that no, lets bring the baby of democracy back. You kill it again in 8 years by citing failures. Then you say "see, that kid failed". This is moronic! Look at USA, one of the most stable democracies in the world right now. You look at some of their past presidents and in 231 years of democracy, you will see some real choice pieces in the process. Some were absolute disasters. So what? You, as a nation, learn and move on. You don't discard the system.
well said
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Long-term and sustained democracy are also long term and sustained solutions, not the short term measures needed right to crush terrorists which no so-called democratic leader can do without they army's backing.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
i agree with the idea of sustained democracy in pakistan but sadly our history shows that democracy doesn't seem to be a system for pakistan. After the first martial law the democratically elected representatives gave us a gift in the form of a broken pakistan. after the second martial law, we had a cat and mouse game for the top job. I'm afraid it would be no better this time around. The politicians' greed for power outweighs any principle or love of the country.
You are forgetting few things. When army/dictatorship rules over a country for longer period of time (5+ years) a leadership vacuum starts to build up and there any idiot who can get some funding can rise as "leader", we have seen that time and time again.
Another thing is, after longer dictatorship the next "democratic" leader has ideals in previous government i.e. dictatorship, for getting all the powers with no accountability. Thats what ZAB, NS, BB tried to do and messed up things around.
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What we need is government accountability to the masses. If that is not there, it matters not how many times the elections are held or who is ruling. People need to be aware of wot their elected representatives do in their term and have the ability to hold them to account at election time. For this free media and free elections are required. As far as the media is concerned, musharraf has made it more independent than it has ever been in the history of pakistan and it would continue to be more open and responding to people's concerns.
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Yes, institutional accountability is what we need, all govt institutions must be accountable at least to public... but unfortunately that is what no body (from govt) wants! They want to be "ruler", not "servant" of the country.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Exactly :k:
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Long-term and sustained democracy are also long term and sustained solutions, not the short term measures needed right to crush terrorists which no so-called democratic leader can do without they army's backing.
SORRY DO NOT AGREE HERE....
THERE ARE NO SHORT TERM SOLUTIONS....
ONLY WAY OUT IS TO CURB THE ARMY AND AGENCIES WHO ARE ACTING LIKE MAFIA AND HAVE BROUGHT US TO THIS LEVEL....
I CAN ASSURE YOU THE WORSE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT WILL BE MUCH BETTER THAN THE BEST DICTATOR...
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Democracy must be accompanied by independent judiciary. Quite simply, this is an absolute must requirement of any form of government.
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
all well.. and I agree everone agreeing with the post and points because they are spot on...
However, what I see missing in all this is the factor of EDUCATION.... It's a known fact of political science that a sustained democracy requires an educated voter. There is only one exception in the whole world that is considered a miracle and that is India where the literacy rate did not affect the sustained democratic process... However, unless there is no plan of improving literacy rate, I still see Feudalism and those few families ruling over the country...
Can Free Judiciary provide means of education? If so How?
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
However, what I see missing in all this is the factor of EDUCATION.... It's a known fact of political science that a sustained democracy requires an educated voter. There is only one exception in the whole world that is considered a miracle and that is India where the literacy rate did not affect the sustained democratic process... However, unless there is no plan of improving literacy rate, I still see Feudalism and those few families ruling over the country...
Do you now see where lies "success" of India? According to some, it was Indias "communism" which sort of sowed seeds of today's success i.e. taking away all (major) lands from "feudal lords" which cut down on their powers tremendously. It is those feudals in Pakistan who are causing havoc. Unfortunately "education" alone may not help, there is a lot more that will be needed to eliminate "feudalism".
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Do you now see where lies "success" of India? According to some, it was Indias "communism" which sort of sowed seeds of today's success i.e. taking away all (major) lands from "feudal lords" which cut down on their powers tremendously. It is those feudals in Pakistan who are causing havoc. Unfortunately "education" alone may not help, there is a lot more that will be needed to eliminate "feudalism".
True but I did not present EDUCATION as the only means to get rid of Feudalism anyway :)
Re: Sustained democracy is the only way to go
Education, poverty reduction, population planning .... these are all important issues, but they are all a result of bad leadership. Once you fix the main issue (leadership), the rest falls in place.