I read the following verse just this morning on my way to work.
Here are the three translations: YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
My question is why would Muslims need Tafsir and other explanations if it is (using Islam/Quraan) said in plain arabic that some are clear revealations and others are allegorical (meaning: figurative, symbolic).
The verse also says none know its interpretations except Allah; so why would Muslims need Bukhari and other explainers.
I hope guppies see my point of view or my question.
But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings
searching can be done independently or through the understanding of others. Same as any scientific study works.. You take the previous knowledge to seek further knowledge.
and I see you ignored the last line of the ayah
and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
and mind you Bukhari & other compilers of the ahaadeeth did not say anything on their own but they compiled the sayings of the prophets:saw: and who will grasp the Message better than Muhammad :saw: and who is the better men of understanding than Muhammad :saw:
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and I see you ignored the last line of the ayah :-)
and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
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Oh no I didn't I was quoting from Shakir's translation but I do see it, now that you've mentioned, in Pickthall and yusufali.
You have an interesting way of looking at it, I was looking at this verse as people that are not perverse, and believe in Allah and the book. Not as needing extra help from Bukhari or other tasfir writers. But you do bring up another angle and I appreciate that.
^^ Reason for the thread is more to see the thought process in this forum rather than seek an answer 'O Mighty Wise One'. I am the man of understanding as the verse says and seek no help. I believe in "La -illaha ill-al-la Mohammad-ar Rasullallah".
And so far I can see 'O mighty wise one'
This highlights the biggest contradiction for me. One article of faith of Islam that gives Muslims such peace of mind and righteousness is Allah's promise that the Quran is the complete and untampered original book, unlike the other books that were corrupted by man. But then they put this protected word of God on equal footing with 'sayings' that were collected hundreds of years after they were supposedly said. There is no reason to believe these 'sayings' are any more or less accurate than the Bible or Torah. It's like having your cake and eating it to. To say "Your books have been tampered with, but ours is perfect and unchanged" and then follow hadith that were compiled by mere men centuries later is not consistent. Even with today's technology and literacy, there is no way to say with certainty that something said 250 years ago by a man who couldn't read or write was actually said. In particular that it is ACCURATELY being re-told.
^ depends what you mean when you say there's a divine promise to preserve the Qur'an... does that just mean the letters and words or does it also include how those words and commandments are to be understood... the Qur'an wasn't revealed in a vacuum... how were its laws applied and explained by its first recipient (the Prophet) or was everyone just left to make up their own explanations?
for a document to be applicable for all times to come, interpretations cannot be frozen in time.
There is a reason the verse specifically mentions "men of understanding".. and numerous places in the Qur'an there is a huge stress on "gaining knowledge".
^ no one's talking about freezing anything... according to you i presume there are no absolutes in the Qur'an... men of understanding would presumably know that the Qur'an wasn't revealed in a vacuum...
Seminole, you will not find many people trying to defend the hadiths as the be all end all scriptures of Islam. It is the Quran, that we Muslims hold in highest regards and believe to be the same as it was given to Prophet Muhammad:saw:.
of course there are absolutes.. but then there are these allegorical verses whose interpertation could be fluid and changeable over time… but only men of understanding and knowledge could attempt an explanation.
^ good... and there are absolutes expressed in hadith also so no problem there... can you give an example of where a hadith has "frozen" the interpretation of what you deem to be one of "these allegorical verses whose interpertation could be fluid and changeable over time"?
You tell me. If one is a proponent of literalism to the nth degree, wouldn’t the promised protection and divinity apply only to the Quran and not ‘sayings’ collected hundreds of years later?
