Sunni beliefs regarding the Shia Imams

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[quote]
Ibn Sadique wrote
I have said what I have learned about beliefs of Mainstream Muslims (Sunnis) regarding the ‘Shia Imams’. [The reason for the inverted comas is to show that Sunnis don’t take them to be exclusively to be Imams of the Shia .
[/quote]
This position is also erroneous. No section of the Ummah, much less the Sunnies, can privilege the mainstream for themselves. How could we give that privilege to the Sunnies or Sulfies only. What is the logic behind describing the Sunnies/Sulfies as mainstream? Is it their beliefs and practices? Or, is it their number?

In fact any body of believers by themselves constitute a mainstream. Each sect and sub-sect of Islam constitutes mainstream in its own right. Any community is constituted around a set of beliefs and practices and that body of followers of those beliefs and practices becomes a mainstream in its own way. So this argument of mainstream is quite misleading, to say the least.

[quote]
*rehman1: *
Sunni believe is that some of the Imams died and impostors took their place. Due to the nature of underground(takia) shia preaching the Caliphs of those times got rid of the Imams.

Ibn Sadique
The political differences were among the partisans of Bani Hashim and Bani Umaiyah. There were no doctrinal differences among Muslims at the time. There was no such thing as 'Shias' and Sunnis' as we know them today.

Ibn Sadique
The 'Shia' Imams (ra) were very stringently apolitical. It is well documented that they shunned politics and kept themselves very far away from politics and kept themselves busy in teaching of the knowledge of Islam.
[/quote]
Strange! If Sunni believe that Imams were on right path but their descendent were not on their path, they became ignorant after them then how come you say the holy Prophet (PBUH) died and impostors not took his place. No body can take anybody’s place if the status is divine.
IMAMAT literally means to Lead; IMAM means Leader.

In Islamic terminology Imamat means 'Absolute command of the Muslims in all religious and secular affairs, in succession to the Prophet.'
IMAM means 'The man who, in succession to the Prophet, has the right to the Absolute Command of the Muslims in all religious and secular affairs.'

The world KHILALAT means 'to succeed' and KHALIFA means 'successor'.
In Islamic terminology KHILALAT and KHALIFA signify the same meanings as IMAMAT and IMAM respectively.

What is the primary characteristic of Imamat? Is an Imam, first and foremost, the ruler of a Kingdom? Or is he, first and foremost, the Representative of Allah and the Vicegerent of the Prophet?

As Imamat and Caliphate is acceptably the successorship of the Prophet, the above questions cannot be answered till we first decide what is the basic characteristic of a prophet. We must decide whether the prophet is, first and foremost, the ruler of a Kingdom, or is he, first and foremost, the Representative of Allah.

We find in the history of Islam that there was a group which looked upon the Mission of the Holy Prophet as an attempt to establish a Kingdom. Those were the people who were waiting to see the outcome of the war between Muslims and Quraish. These were the Arabs who used to say that Mohammad(saww) be left to his people. If he would emerge victorious over them he is undoubtedly a true prophet. So, according to them, victory was the criterion of truth! If Mohammed(saww) would have been defeated he would have been treated as a liar!
The view that his sacred Mission was nothing but a worldly affairs was repeatedly announced by Abu Sufyan and his clan.

At the time of the Fall of Mecca, Abu Sufyan said to Abbas, "Abbas! Verily your nephew has acquired quite a Kingdom!" Abbas said, "Woe unto thee! This is not Kingship, it is the Prophethood."

Here you find the two opposite views in clear contrast. Abu Sufyan never changed his views. When Uthman became Caliph, Abu Sufyan came to him and advised, "O children of Umayya! Now that this Kingdom has come to you, play with it as the children play with a ball and pass it from one to another of your clan. This Kingdom is a reality; and we do not know whether there is any paradise and hell or not."
Then he went to Uhud and kicked at the grave of Hamza, and said, "O Abu Ya'ala! See that the Kingdom for which you were fighting us has at last come to us."

The same views were inherited by Yazid who said: "Banu Hashim staged a play to obtain Kingdom; actually, there was neither any news from God nor any revelation."

If that is the view held by any Muslim, then he is bound to equalize Imamat with Rulership. According to such thinking the primary function of the Prophet was Kingship, and, therefore, anybody holding the rein of power in his hand is the rightful successor of the Holy Prophet.
But the trouble is that more than 99 per cent of the prophets had no political power; and most of them were persecuted and apparently helpless victims of the political powers of their times. Their glory was not of crown and throne, but of martyrdom and sufferings. If primary characteristic of prophethood is the political power and rulership, then, perhaps not even 50 (out of 124,000) prophets would retain their Divine title of 'Nabi.'

Thus it is crystal-clear that the main characteristic of the Holy Prophet was not that he had political power but that he was the Representative of Allah. And that Representation was not bestowed upon him by his people; but by Allah Himself.

Likewise, his successor's Chief Characteristic can not be the political power; but the fact that he was the Representative of Allah. And that Representation can never be bestowed upon any one by his people; it must come from Allah Himself.

In short, if the Imam is to represent Allah, he must be appointed by Allah.

Like the prophet, an Imam should excel all the Ummah in all virtues, such as knowledge, bravery, piety, charity, etc., and should possess completc knowledge of the Divine Iaw. If it be not so, and this high post be given to a less perfect person when a more perfcct onc is available, the inferior will have been given preference to the superior, which is wrong in the sight of reason and is against the Divine Justice. Therefore, no inferior person can get the Imamat from God when there exists a person superior to him.

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I wonder why you stopped at Imam Musa Kazim (AS). Anyway, if you accept that Shia imams are pious, worthy of honour and very knowledgeable, why don’t you follow them after the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Instead of following other non- infallibles in Sunnies. You could answer that they were well documented and they left their knowledge. The answer to this question that Imams of Ahle Bait (AS) also left knowledge for us in the form of thousands of Aahdeeth. The only reason of reject those things is because of political differences.

“One who Dies without recognising the Imam of his Time, dies the death of Jahiliyaa(Ignorance)”.

(Musnad of ahmad ibn Hambal,2/73;
Saheeh Bukhari,5/17;
Saheeh Muslim Tr.1849;
Al-kafi of Kulayni,1/377;
Kamaluddin of Shaykh Sadooq ch.39,pp410-411)

Imam Ali is not only a Sahabi, He is from Ahle Bait. Ahle Bait has more merits than Sahaba. See how clearly people ignore the concept of Ahle Bait.

However there are number of Hadiths which describe the praise of Ahle Bait(AS) All Muslims agree that this Superiority cannot be decided by our own views or outlook and that there is no way to know it except through Quran and/or Hadeeth. Imam Ghazali (the famous Sunni scholar) has written: “The Reality of superiority is what is before Allah; and that is a thing which cannot be known except to The Holy Prophet(saww)”. Most of our Sunni brethren believe that the superiority was according to the sequence of the Caliphate, i.e., Abu Bakr was supreme-most, then Umar, then Uthman, then Ali Ibin Abe Taleb(as). But this belief is not based upon any proof, nor was it the belief of all the Sunnis of early days.

Imams Ahl al-Bayt (AS) are the perfect examples of the education and training of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Their characters and life-style resemble the character of the Holy Prophet (PBUH).

Imams never gave up the main objective of the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) policy which consisted of safeguarding the Usul al-Din (the fundamental principles of Islam for believing in) and the Furu’ al-Din (the secondary principles of Islam for action on) from undergoing changes and transformations, and the education of people, as far as possible.

Within 23 years since his call and invitation to Islam, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) passed three phases of his life. The first three years, the next ten years, ten years (after the Hijrah). It is certainly obvious that these three different environments demanded different expediencies and would display the character and life-style of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), who had no other objective but to revive the truth and reality, in various forms.

The different environments, in which the guiding Imams (AS) lived, were not unlike the three phases of life style of the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) call.

Various governments, which came into being in the Islamic society after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), under the name of Islam were all in serious disagreement with the Ahl al-Bayt (AS). This irreconcilable antagonism served as a root which never dried. These governments of the time always considered the Ahl al-Bayt (AS) as dangerous rivals and were frightened of them. These governments exploited various possibilities to annihilate the Ahl al-Bayt (AS).

These “Islamic governments”, during the lives of Ahl al-Bayt (AS), brought about changes in the precepts and laws of Islam as per the “expediency of the time”. It was due to these changes that their conducts were contrary to that of the Holy Prophet (SA). But according to the Qur’anic directives, the Ahl al-Bayt (AS) considered the precepts of the conduct of the Holy Prophet (SA) indispensable.

Due to these differences and contradictions, the contemporary powerful governments did not refrain from crushing the Ahl al-Bayt (AS). They embarked on using every possible means to extinguish the light of their guidance.

Although the Ahl al-Bayt (AS) continuously faced many problems and encountered stubborn and sinister enemies, they continued their invitation of Islam to people and the work of Islamic tabligh (communication) in accordance with their divine duty, they did not leave any stone unturned for education of the righteous individuals.

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What about those Hadith which are narrated by Shias in Sunni books?

Twelve Imams from The Holy Prophet’s Ahlul-Bait and Descendants, because they were, in their times, the most knowledgeable, most illustrious, most God fearing, most pious, highest in their family lineage, best in personal virtues, and most honored before Allah; and their knowledge was derived from their ancestor The Holy Prophet(saww), through their fathers, and by inheritance and by direct teaching from Allah.

Why did he in fact enter in the room of Usman. What was the relationship of Hazrat Ayesha with Muhammad bin Abi Bakr. Where was she at that time. And from where Muhammad Bin Abi Bakr came.?

If they were murdered, then why the two war were fought against Imam Ali (AS). And what happened with Muhammad bin Abi Bakr later on.

It was not you. Brother.

Sunni Hadith Scholar not only took Hadith from Shia Imam but they also took Hadith from Shia narrators. In practice there is not much difference Shia and Sunni. The major difference is in Aqaaid (believes). Imams of Ahle Baith educated us in true Islamic believes.
Misunderstanding the concept of Taqiyyah is your problem. Sunni Fiqh simply translate Taqqiyah as lying, actually its not. There are 3 verses of the Qur’an, that are so clear on Taqiyyah that no one can deny it. Refuting Taqiyyah is in fact denying these Qunanic Teachings. These verses are:

First Verse:
[Yusufali 3:28] Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

2nd Verse:
[Yusufali 16:106] Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

3rd Verse:
[Yusufali 40:28] A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, ‘My Lord is Allah’?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie: but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you: Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!

The first person in Islam to practice taqiyyah was the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf) himself when he concealed his mission in the beginning of Islam. For three years, his mission was very secret, and, in order to protect the message and the ideas he was carrying, he did not reveal them to the Quraysh until Allah commanded him to speak openly. Sirat ibn Hisham, 1:274; Tarikh al-Tabari, 2:216 and 218; al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, ibn Sa’ad, p. 200

I refer you to read the article about Taqiyyah at the following website. Take sometime and read it carefully.

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/taqiyyah/en/chap1.php

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So …does it mean …u follow the same steps in case of khumer …sharab…like the step wise prohibition of drinking…

brother with 23 years of taqiyyah by hadrat ali:razi: as u say …do u belive that it is possible for ppl to practivce true islam..i mean it means that u have to hide ur religion from others …kitman…i find it very disturbing and slooppy concept,… Allah forbid being a hypocrate(as far as shia concept goes) rather then going for jihad and fighting those who have taken the seat of imam…what should we belive hadrat ali :razi: personal practice or what u ascribe to them …we sunnis see that hadrat ali named his sons after sahabah …we see that hadrat zainulabideen hadrat hussain …all doing the same…naming their sons umer-usman-abubakr…

As for ur second point …yes sunnis took shia narrators beliving them as sunnis…

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1-The ayahs u mentioned are about common person ..not the leader -imam of the ummah…because in that case the islam will suffer where as in individuals case nothing will be lost …so he is Allowed to say lie…

2-Hadrat Muhammad:saw: never said a lie in his life…he hided the dawah until orders…not lied to ppl that i am nauzobillah a mushrik…never said anything like this…whereas when u say taqiyyah ..it means hiding ur faith …and promoting ur self as dai of ittehad ul bain ul muslaimeen …it is clear hypocrasy which …is in my opinion the direct effect of abdullah ibne saba on shia religion…

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Brother inuit, - Your two posts above are much beyond the scope of this thread so I will not answer any of your questions or statement which are not relevant to the topic at hand, however I will address where you have quoted and queried me.

If you have anything other to say apart from the topic at hand then you are welcome to open a new thread and if I know anything about the topic – I will try to respond (ONLY if I have the knowledge of the topic.)

You have objected to that I have called Sunnis as ‘Mainstream Muslims’ but I see no reason for it. The logic behind it is both - their beliefs & practices and their numbers.

About Muslims being divided in to 73 sects was already foretold by the Prophet (saw), which I think you will concur.

There are numerous hadith where the Prophet (saw) has instructed the Muslims to adhere to his Sunnah and not to ‘leave’ the Jama’ah (The main body) of Muslims. I’ll quote a few:

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “The Jews split into 71 groups; one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups; 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.” When asked which group will be on the right path, the Holy Prophet (saw) replied: “The main (al-Jama'ah) body of the Muslims.” (Ibne Majah Kitab al-Fitan)

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell.” When asked which group will be on the right path, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) replied: “The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunnah and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims.” (Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat)

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority).” (Ibne Majah)

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!” (Ibne Majah)

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah’s mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell.”(Tirmizi)

So from the Muslims, the Sunnis being an overwhelming majority 85% - 90% - can be addressed as Mainstream Muslims – (Sunnis are sometimes even addressed as orthodox Muslims!)

As the Imamites or the Twelvers are an overwhelming group among the Shia; they can be addressed as Mainstream Shias.

Or on the hand you can type Mainstream Muslims in Google search engine and press enter – and lo, you will be surprised that the results will only relate to the Sunni Muslims.

So, my addressing Sunnis as Mainstream Muslims was not misleading in any way.

You questioned this statement of mine: “Sunni’s consider all the Shia Imams (ra) very pious, worthy of honour and very knowledgeable especially upto Imam Musa kazim (ra).” By saying:

[QUOTE]
I wonder why you stopped at Imam Musa Kazim (AS). Anyway, if you accept that Shia imams are pious, worthy of honour and very knowledgeable, why don’t you follow them after the Holy Prophet (PBUH).
[/QUOTE]

The reason I stopped at Imam Musa Kazim (ra) is that there is a documentary evidence of him being a great teacher: such (the documentary evidence) is not there for the later Imams. (Though we recognize them as very pious, worthy of honour and knowledgeable)

Sunnis do not regard anyone as an infallible apart from Allah (swt), the Qur’an al Karim and His Prophets (saw).

[QUOTE]
"One who Dies without recognising the Imam of his Time, dies the death of Jahiliyaa(Ignorance)".
[/QUOTE]

You have quoted the above hadith from Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hambal (ra); there are similar hadith to the effect and I quote a few of them here:

Ibn 'Abbas narrated that the Prophet (saw) said: "If anyone sees in his Amir something that displeases him let him remain patient, for behold, he who separates himself from the Sultan (authority of Islam) by even so much as a hand span and dies thereupon, has died a death of the days of jahilliyah".

Hisham ibn 'Urwa reported on the authority of Abu Saleh on the authority of Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (saw) said: "Leaders will take charge of you after me, where the pious (one) will lead you with his piety and the impious (one) with his impiety, so listen to them and obey them in everything which conforms with the truth. If they act rightly it is for your credit, and if they acted wrongly it is counted for you and against them."

Nafi'a reported saying: " 'Umar said to me that he heard the Prophet (saw) saying: 'Whosoever takes off his hand from allegiance to Allah (swt) will meet Him (swt) on the Day of Resurrection without having any proof for him, and whoso dies whilst there was no bay'ah (allegiance or a pledge) on his neck (to a Khaleefah), he dies a death of jahilliyah.'

"Whosoever dies without having a bay'ah upon his neck he dies a death of jahilliyah."

This has nothing to do with ‘Shia Imams’ as such, these hadith indicate that the Muslims are required to give bayah ( Oath of allegiance) to the Khaleefah of the time.

You can notice that even though Imam Ahmad ibn Hambal (ra) recorded the hadith that you quoted, he never ‘recognized’ any Shia Imam.

You have queried the two statements of mine quoted below:

[QUOTE]
"The political differences were among the partisans of Bani Hashim and Bani Umaiyah. There were no doctrinal differences among Muslims at the time. There was no such thing as 'Shias' and Sunnis' as we know them today." & " The 'Shia' Imams (ra) were very stringently apolitical. It is well documented that they shunned politics and kept themselves very far away from politics and kept themselves busy in teaching of the knowledge of Islam."
[/QUOTE]

I am quoting Hazrat Ali (ra) from Nahjul Balaghah:

"Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counselor than as chief."

"By Allah, I had neither liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it."

You can clear see that Hazrat Ali (ra) was not clamoring for power and never claimed it to be bestowed on him from Allah (saw).

And I will quote Hazrat Ali (ra) from the same source, showing that Hazrat Ali considered his adversaries Muslims and that they were on same Belief that he was on!

"The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (saw) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it."

Can you show me authenticated statements of later ‘Shia Imams’ laying their claims to Khilafaat?

You queried the following statement of mine : “The Sunnis only take knowledge from 'Shia Imams' (ra) which is stated in their [Sunni's ] Hadith books and NOT what is stated from them in the Shia Hadith books.”

[QUOTE]
What about those Hadith which are narrated by Shias in Sunni books?
[/QUOTE]

We have no problem with hadith which are narrated by Shias in Sunni hadith books as long they do not contradict Qur’an, Sunnah and Sayings of the Prophet (saw) and have a sound chain of authority. In fact Imam Bukhari (ra) has quoted a few hadith from Shia Narrators!

Lastly I had said in one of my previous post that:

[QUOTE]
All the Shia Imams (ra) though being a great source of knowledge among other many notables have not written any books on Fiqh or other Islamic Sciences.
[/QUOTE]

Could you please confirm the above statement?

Let’s not take this thread all over Shia – Sunni dispute. If you have any other issues to discuss which are unrelated to this topic then open a new thread. I am sure there are many knowledgeable people around to ‘discuss’ with you and if I think that I can contribute anything relevant I will try to do so.

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Sunnis don’t believe in Imamat because this whole concept is based on family lineage of Muhammed :saw:. We respect all the Imams but we don’t think they’re better OR worse than Muhammed :saw:'s companions just because they’re from his family or his descendents.

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This is a valid question that Why is this Imamat to be only amongst the Ahle bait?. But! it is not necessary for Imamat to be only in family lineage (Ahlebait). Imamat’s requirements are piety, superiority and the will to do only Allah’s bidding. If these are present in anyone else he is definitely deserving to be an Imam but the truth is it is found in none but the progeny of the Prophet. These are the people who have been named by the Prophet himself.

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What kind of superiority? You mean, they are superior because they were from Muhammed :saw:'s family? What about Prophet’s campanions such as Abu Bakr?

PS.
I don’t agree with your point of view neither does sunni Islam.

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Think again!

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
**Brother inuit,* There are numerous hadith where the Prophet (saw) has instructed the Muslims to adhere to his Sunnah and not to ‘leave’ the Jama’ah (The main body) of Muslims. I’ll quote a few:

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “The Jews split into 71 groups; one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups; 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.” When asked which group will be on the right path, the Holy Prophet (saw) replied: “The main (al-Jama'ah) body of the Muslims.” (Ibne Majah Kitab al-Fitan)

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell.” When asked which group will be on the right path, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) replied: “The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunnah and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims.” (Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat)

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority).” (Ibne Majah)

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!” (Ibne Majah)

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah’s mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell.”(Tirmizi)

So from the Muslims, the Sunnis being an overwhelming majority 85% - 90% - can be addressed as Mainstream Muslims – (Sunnis are sometimes even addressed as orthodox Muslims!)

As the Imamites or the Twelvers are an overwhelming group among the Shia; they can be addressed as Mainstream Shias.

Or on the hand you can type Mainstream Muslims in Google search engine and press enter – and lo, you will be surprised that the results will only relate to the Sunni Muslims.
[/QUOTE]
Jama’ah is not a hujaat. There is no Jama’ah without Imam, don’t you know?

“Follow the largest group”, “Stay with largest group”; this is not according to Quran. These are fabricated “Aahadith”.

The result you will get from Google search engine is because of Meta tags. Sunni website use the “mainstream muslims” as search keywords in their websites for better search. It not a miracle.

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