Suicide Terrorist strikes Tel Aviv

I know my family exited Germany in 1924 and 1928.

My grandfather visted almost every year thereafter, but left that country.

And became a citizen of the U.S.

They were lutheran, mostly. Cept I found old star of david pendents in my grandmothers jewelery box.

I think they were gifts from her friends.

And I know my grandfather left Germany because he knew he could find a better life here.

So they married in Manhattan. My grandmother just off the boat.

I have photos of a visit to Germany in 1932. Lunenberg, Bergedorf and other places.

Have one picture of people I don't know, taken in 1945 in Cuxhaven. Their names are on the back but I have never met them.

Now this is the most sane statement you have ever made. :k:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is when you say you want peace but condone actions such as this bombing which are meant to stop peace. Hypocrisy is criticizing any and every Israeli or American action which results in civilian casualties, but continue to support these murderous actions by Palestinians. Call it blame displacment, conspircacy theory, unable to take responsibility, ignorance, inherently violent society, whatever you want, but call it for what it is - terrorism meant to displace Israel and disrupt any chance at a peaceful co-existence. It is oh so conveniently overlooked that the only reason Israel occupies Palestinian territories is to keep these murdering thugs from waltzing in and blowing up cafes. And until Palestinian leadership can put a stop these organized homicide bombers, they will continue to be occupied. Let's hope this new leadership will get serious about peace. If they are, then Israel will be forced to the peace table and forced to withdraw.
[/QUOTE]

Goes Vice-Versa.

Best thing the Pali's can do for their country today it trust the new Prime Minister.

And the best thing they can do for humankind is make effort to know their neighbors and talk.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
....
Are they government sponsered?
...
[/QUOTE]

They are not. But Israeli bombardments of Palestinian area is definitely government sponsored.

Bomber was a British Citizen.http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/288343.html

What's the big deal.

So what if innocents got killed. Isn't this something that Israel and America routinely practice. Killing innocents.

Why don't you arm the Palestinians with the same arsenal that you give to your Isreali buddy's so that the suicide bombings can stop and real warfare can decide the peace process.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
What's the big deal.

So what if innocents got killed. Isn't this something that Israel and America routinely practice. Killing innocents.

Why don't you arm the Palestinians with the same arsenal that you give to your Isreali buddy's so that the suicide bombings can stop and real warfare can decide the peace process.
[/QUOTE]

Ouch.

Why don't the religious talk and say no? Why don't they teach good?

AAG

I think that's a bit strong coming from a predominantly Christian and Jewish State which actually kills in the name of peace and condones violence.

It's called taking a leaf out of your own book.

Teaching good starts at home, don't you think.

Ouch!!!!!!!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Blah, blah, blah. Same old rationalizations to justify terrorism.
No one said Israel is the saint in all this and does not share blame for the absence of peace. But is it impossible for you to admit that Palestinians MUST stop terrorist attacks and accept the right of Israel to exist in order to achieve peace? Do you think the Israel is going to give up on settlements and occupation as a response to terrorism? BOTH sides must cease hostilities, come to the bargaining table and respect the right for the other to co-exist peacefully.
[/QUOTE]

.accept the right of Israel to exist
Israel have NO right to exist. Neither morally, historically, ethically or any other reason.It was a criminal act by western powers back in 1948 to "create" the artificial state called Israel.
You can call Hamas and other palestinians terrorist or what ever you like. It dosent change anything what people like you think or do.
The fact is that Israel will never have peace no matter what happens even if a palestinian "state" is created. They will have to live with the fear of being bombed and killed whenever and everywere until the last day or as long as this socalled country exist.
I have that active view and I am teaching my children that view as they will teach there children and so on.
The only solution for peace for Israel is to accept an ceasefire for a certain lenght of years (maybe 10 years) where the jews can either migrate or apply for citizenship in a palestinian state to be created all over the place now called israel. Any other option is not acceptable. Not even if arafat & co. dosent agree. The fight will still be on.
If the israelies dosent wants to be killed then the solution is very simple for them they can just leave that area and live in any western country i´m sure they will be welcomed at least by the governments of the western countries ( i´m not so sure that the average citizen will welcome them).
It was the jews who started this war against muslims not opposite but we will for sure end it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ZII: *

accept the right of Israel to exist
Israel have NO right to exist. Neither morally, historically, ethically or any other reason.It was a criminal act by western powers back in 1948 to "create" the artificial state called Israel.
You can call Hamas and other palestinians terrorist or what ever you like. It dosent change anything what people like you think or do.
The fact is that Israel will never have peace no matter what happens even if a palestinian "state" is created. They will have to live with the fear of being bombed and killed whenever and everywere until the last day or as long as this socalled country exist. *I have that active view and I am teaching my children that view as they will teach there children and so on. *
The only solution for peace for Israel is to accept an ceasefire for a certain lenght of years (maybe 10 years) where the jews can either migrate or apply for citizenship in a palestinian state to be created all over the place now called israel. Any other option is not acceptable. Not even if arafat & co. dosent agree. The fight will still be on.
If the israelies dosent wants to be killed then the solution is very simple for them they can just leave that area and live in any western country i´m sure they will be welcomed at least by the governments of the western countries ( i´m not so sure that the average citizen will welcome them).
It was the jews who started this war against muslims not opposite but we will for sure end it.
[/QUOTE]

Speaks volumes, thank you.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ZII: *
.
accept the right of Israel to exist*
Israel have NO right to exist. Neither morally, historically, ethically or any other reason.It was a criminal act by western powers back in 1948 to "create" the artificial state called Israel.
You can call Hamas and other palestinians terrorist or what ever you like. It dosent change anything what people like you think or do.
The fact is that Israel will never have peace no matter what happens even if a palestinian "state" is created. They will have to live with the fear of being bombed and killed whenever and everywere until the last day or as long as this socalled country exist.
I have that active view and I am teaching my children that view as they will teach there children and so on.
The only solution for peace for Israel is to accept an ceasefire for a certain lenght of years (maybe 10 years) where the jews can either migrate or apply for citizenship in a palestinian state to be created all over the place now called israel. Any other option is not acceptable. Not even if arafat & co. dosent agree. The fight will still be on.
If the israelies dosent wants to be killed then the solution is very simple for them they can just leave that area and live in any western country i´m sure they will be welcomed at least by the governments of the western countries ( i´m not so sure that the average citizen will welcome them).
It was the jews who started this war against muslims not opposite but we will for sure end it.
[/QUOTE]

You are clearly ignoring the other obvious solution. The Israelis could kill every Palestinian man, woman and child who thinks and speaks as you do and/or every Palestinian man, woman or child who MIGHT think and speak as you do. From an outsider's point of view (one who sits comfortably in his lounge chair in a middle class American home sipping an alchoholic beverage or two), that is the direction the Israelis seem to have been following. And, thanks to the people who think and speak as you do, they can get away with it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

You are clearly ignoring the other obvious solution. The Israelis could kill every Palestinian man, woman and child who thinks and speaks as you do and/or every Palestinian man, woman or child who MIGHT think and speak as you do. From an outsider's point of view (one who sits comfortably in his lounge chair in a middle class American home sipping an alchoholic beverage or two), that is the direction the Israelis seem to have been following. And, thanks to the people who think and speak as you do, they can get away with it.
[/QUOTE]

I follow your line of thinking. I dont know wether you are a muslim or not but that it going to happen. The israelis will/is try there best to either kill or scare the arabs to migrate to other parts of the middleeast. Its there agenda to create "greater israel" so that there vision about the return of messiah and the great temple to be fullfilled. Its not a secret as leading israelies have expressed these views including Ariel Sharon himself.
That is the basic reason for my views upon israel. It is something which is a part of Islamic teaching. There is a lot of hadiths mentioning this etnic cleansing by the jews. Its an other discussion which im only interested in having with muslims only as nonmuslims views upon Islam dosent mean anything for me.
Anyway if you are a muslim and wants to debate this specific issue you can start a tread at Islam room Ill be there to answer your eventually questions as others will as well.

It seems as though Israel are still looking for the promised land?

Maybe a compass will help and they can follow the co-ordinates to Capitol Hill.

They'll find it there.

If it is okay to kill little kids to free a country of one man then my mentality just fine if not better.

And talking about taking responsibility, well, I'm sorry. Happy?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *

This is a perfect example of the mentality the Israelis are dealing with. And once again the majority here blames the side that is not Muslim. Taking responsibility is a bitch, isn’t it?
[/QUOTE]

Myvoice and UTD must we go over this again? Israel may exist. It doesnt have to in the future. But lets leave such judgements to Allah.

Now a suicide bomber takes out some israelis? Ok so? They kill Palestinians. This is war. War is a pain. It is evil. The Israelis were in the words of the US govt "collateral damage".

**Israeli Troops Kill 12 Palestinians **
1 hour, 37 minutes ago

By DAN PERRY, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops raided a Hamas stronghold and exchanged fire with dozens of masked gunmen Thursday, a day after the militant group set off a suicide bomb in Tel Aviv and mediators presented a new Mideast peace plan. **Ten Palestinians were killed, including two boys ages 2 and 13. **

It was the most intense gunbattle in Gaza in 31 months of fighting. Separately, **two Palestinians were killed in an exchange of fire with soldiers in the West Bank. **

The fighting occurred as Israeli and Palestinian leaders voiced conflicting interpretations of the long-awaited “road map” peace plan, the latest attempt by international mediators to end the violence.

Diplomats representing the so-called Quartet of Mideast mediators — the United States, European Union (news - web sites), United Nations (news - web sites) and Russia — presented the peace plan to Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Wednesday after Mahmoud Abbas took office as the first Palestinian prime minister.

The Israeli military did not link the raid to Wednesday’s bombing in a Tel Aviv pub, in which three Israelis were killed and 55 wounded. **The target of the Gaza incursion was Yousef Abu Hein, a top Hamas bombmaker and fugitive, who was killed in the fighting, his body riddled by more than 20 bullets. **

The raid began at about 1:50 a.m., when tanks, jeeps and undercover troops in passenger cars entered Gaza City’s Shijaiyah neighborhood, a Hamas stronghold. More than 200 gunmen, many of them wearing black masks, rushed to the scene, as mosque loudspeakers called for a “jihad,” or holy war.

Intense fighting continued into the afternoon. Palestinians were armed with assault rifles and anti-tank missiles, and some rigged wiring to large canisters that appeared to hold explosives.

Dr. Fadel Abu Hein, a prominent child psychologist and a brother of the wanted man, said his four-story apartment building came under intense fire.

“We are sitting in full darkness. Children are screaming. We are trying to calm them down, but bullets are coming from all directions,” he said.

After daybreak, hundreds of bystanders thronged the area of battle. An AP reporter saw two boys, ages 12 and 14, hit by Israeli fire as they tried to run away from a burst of shooting. The 14-year-old was struck by a bullet in the neck, and doctors later said he was paralyzed from the neck down.

**
Those killed were six gunmen, two adult civilians, including a mentally handicapped man, and two boys, ages two and 13, doctors said. Sixty-five Palestinians were wounded, including 12 who were in critical condition.
**
**
Two-year-old Amer Ayad was hit by a bullet to the head while he was near a window in his home, said his father Ahmed, a blacksmith. “Is this the new peace President Bush (news - web sites) promised?” Ayad said. “They wrote the answer using the blood of my son.”
**

Eight Israeli soldiers were wounded, including one who was in serious condition, the military said.

The incursion came a day after Hamas and another Palestinian group claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv pub. The blast killed three bystanders and wounded 55 others. It was not clear whether the Israeli incursion was in response to the bombing.

The fighting underscored the difficulties in implementing the road map. Yet, there is some hope that the plan will succeed in ending the fighting where others have failed.

It is supported by a rare global consensus that neither of the warring sides wants to rebuff. Also, it comes at a time when U.S. clout in the Middle East is at a high point in the wake of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s ouster in Iraq (news - web sites).

“For the first time in a very long time, Israel and the international community have a partner to go back to the table with,” U.N. envoy Terje Roed-Larsen told The Associated Press after meeting Abbas. “We have, hopefully, a peace process going.”

The two sides started the process at odds. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s office issued a statement saying he had received the document “for the purpose of formulating comments on the wording.” Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath, in contrast, called for “implementing the road map immediately.”

Palestinian leaders accused Israel of trying to sabotage the new peace plan. The Gaza raid was meant to “create more provocation, to push for more Palestinian reaction to the Israeli aggression,” Mohammed Dahlan, a senior security official, said Thursday, after the first Cabinet meeting chaired by Abbas.

The three-year outline starts with a Palestinian crackdown on terror groups and an Israeli freeze on Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites), combined with a “progressive” Israeli pullout from the autonomous Palestinian zones its troops have reoccupied during the current round of fighting.

Acting U.S. consul-general Jeff Feltman said “the road map is a guideline, it’s not a sacred text or treaty.” Larsen also said implementation would be negotiated, and a diplomatic source said the United States might dispatch an envoy for the task.

Both governments say they want to end violence that has killed 2,287 people on the Palestinian side and 763 people on the Israeli side since September 2000. But past plans have failed.

Israel has asked for more than a dozen changes to this one, including making a Palestinian crackdown on terror groups the condition for any progress.

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palestinians are not allowed to have their own army, police or weapons. how can they protect themselves from israeli terrorists if they won’t have any weapons to fight back? isreal is deliberately targetting the important palestinians figures to tighten its hold. once they are out of the way, they’ll do the same thing USA have done in iraq. put in a proxy government that will obey then :slight_smile:

for every 1 Israeli that is killed, 10 Palestinians are killed, its a never ending cycle.

Just wondering - were the suicide bomber and his accomplice, both of Pakistani origin?

‘Most Muslims aren’t terrorists. But some think they can’t get justice any other way’]('Most Muslims aren't terrorists. But some think they can't get justice any other way' | World news | The Guardian), Faisal al Yafai
The Guardian, 2 May 2003

British Pakistanis more likely:

Isn’t that nice. We are getting more and more famous. :rolleyes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/02/wbomb02.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/05/02/ixnewstop.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=HOME&grid=N1&menuId=-1&menuItemId=-1&_requestid=67870