Suicide Bombing

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *

If enemies of Muslims rape Muslim women you would definitly forget about your Quran and go for revenge. cos that is human nature that very nature was instilled into Humans by Very God of your who according to YOU gave you the quran.
[/QUOTE]

wonderfully reply....britishers raped even plenty of teensgers girls in iraq ...jews behave badly badly against muslims women in palestine...indian soldiers r involved in raping of thousands in kashmir...
palestine people r doing right thing..u hit i hit thts alll

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by usmanjunooni: *

nah nah i disagree with u go to my topic suicide bombings and read fatwa of popular mufti ibrahim deasi and u no the class of mufti ibrahim desai..i m sorry to say ur point is totally unvalid khair hope discussion will continue without bashing
thanxs
[/QUOTE]

I'm familiar with Ibrahim Desai's fatwa. It gives different reasons to what you stated. He uses the judicial process which I keep referring back to, unlike your argument.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

I'm familiar with Ibrahim Desai's fatwa. It gives different reasons to what you stated. He uses the judicial process which I keep referring back to, unlike your argument.
[/QUOTE]

Mate,,, Your muftiis don't know Jack****. can they stop Americans and Israealis from killing Palestinians,,of course not,,they are the ones who should be exterminated not poor Palestinians and Iraqis. when you are subjected to persecution for a period of time you get to a point where you lose it and stand up and fight. Again, Since I don't beleive in any religion so I am completely against Violence in all forms. If Israel does not stop now we will never see peace in that part of the world which in turn will affect the rest of the world. And your Muftis and Mullahs spare no effort to make sure we don't see any peace be it in Pakistan, Kashmire, Palestine or Iraq.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *

If enemies of Muslims rape Muslim women you would definitly forget about your Quran and go for revenge. cos that is human nature that very nature was instilled into Humans by Very God of your who according to YOU gave you the quran.
[/QUOTE]

Can u give any instance where jews raped palestinain women.. how about thouands of Bengali women raped by Pakistani army on record.. so if Bengalis rape western Pakistani women that time it was justified..

Simple point is that religion teaches humans in most humane way how to live.. why didnt prophet Muhammad killed women, old and kids when kuffars were so powerful and had to leave Makkah and other muslims had to go to Africa for refuge..

orginally posted by degas

"Simple point is that religion teaches humans in most humane way how to live.. why didnt prophet Muhammad killed women, old and kids when kuffars were so powerful and had to leave Makkah and other muslims had to go to Africa for refuge.."

I agree brother but arnt u sayin part of Quran and hide a part, well does islam allows u to say bad about muslims, how could u recall such acts, these acts are done by peple who have no faith, well no need to argue more, the situation in some muslims countries is worse where we need to get united to stand against kuffars not to split by sayin this muslim raped that, what awful things are comin out of your mouth.

Re: Re: When quoting hadiths, please provide the chain of narration and which compiler of had

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Like I said, there is no chain of narration given therefore it is dangerous to consider it as being authentic. And I challenge you to find anything in the Quran that encourages military action without morals.

Whilst I personally hold martyrdom bombings in Palestine to be Islamically acceptable, I do so for different reasons.
[/QUOTE]

Dear mAd_ScIeNtIsT,

If willing to elaborate.

Am curious what your reasonings that lead your opinion that martydom bombings Islamically acceptable?

Does your thinking include rules or conditions as to who or where bombers should target? Such as:

Soldiers
military installations
civilians
homes of civilians

I think I as somewhat dangerous question....

Because your answers might persuade those who are against or are undecided to conclude that martyrdom bombings are morally and Islamically acceptable....

Though I disagree, I think important to try to gain understanding of the reasons behind that stance.

AAG.. as recently as 5 years ago, I was vehemently against and utterly disgusted by what I at that time considered to be "suicide bombings". In the years since, I have come to view them as being instead martyrdom operations.

The following is the argument that convinced me.

[quote]

Martyrdom Operations,

"The martyrdom operations carried out by the Palestinian factions to resist the Zionist occupation are not in any way included in the framework of prohibited terrorism, even if the victims include some civilians. This is for several reasons:

First of all, due to the colonialist, occupational, racist, and [plundering] nature of Israeli society, it is, in fact, a military society. Anyone past childhood, man or woman, is drafted into the Israeli army. Every Israeli is a solider in the army, either in practical terms or because he is a reservist soldier who can be summoned at any time for war. This fact needs no proof. Those they call 'civilians' are in effect 'soldiers' in the army of the sons of Zion.

Second, Israeli society has a unique trait that makes it different from the other human societies, and that is that as far as the people of Palestine are concerned, it is a 'society of invaders' who came from outside the region - from Russia or America, from Europe or from the lands of the Orient - to occupy Palestine and settle in it..."

"Those who are invaded have the right to fight the invaders with all means at their disposal in order to remove [the invaders] from their homes and send them back to the homes from whence they came... This is a Jihad of necessity, as the clerics call it, and not Jihad of choice... Even if an innocent child is killed as a result of this Jihad - it was not intended, but rather due to the necessities of the war... Even with the passage of time, these [Israeli] so-called 'civilians' do not stop being invaders, evil, tyrants, and oppressors..."

"Third... It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected. Because they fight against and are hostile towards the Muslims, they annulled the protection of his blood and his property."

"Fourth, the Muslim clerics, or most of them, have agreed that it is permissible to kill Muslims if the army that attacks the Muslims hides behind them, that is, uses them as barricades or human shields, and sets them at the front so that the fire, arrows, or spears of the Muslims will harm them first. The clerics have permitted the defenders to kill these innocent Muslims, who were forced to stand at the head of the army of their enemies... Otherwise the invading army will enter and annihilate their offspring and their harvests. There was no choice but to sacrifice some [of the Muslims] in order to defend the entire [Muslim] community... Therefore, if it is permitted to kill innocent Muslims who are under coercion in order to protect the greater Muslim community, it is all the more so permissible to kill non-Muslims in order to liberate the land of the Muslims from its occupiers and oppressors.

Fifth, in modern war, all of society, with all its classes and ethnic groups, is mobilized to participate in the war, to aid its continuation, and to provide it with the material and human fuel required for it to assure the victory of the state fighting its enemies. Every citizen in society must take upon himself a role in the effort to provide for the battle. The entire domestic front, including professionals, laborers, and industrialists, stands behind the fighting army, even if it does not bear arms. Therefore the experts say that the Zionist entity, in truth, is one army.

Sixth, there are two types of Fatwas: Fatwas concerning a situation of calm and choice, and Fatwas concerning a situation of distress and necessity. It is permissible for a Muslim, when in a situation of extreme necessity, to do what is prohibited to him [in circumstances allowing] choice... Thus, one of the clerics has espoused the rule: 'Necessities permit prohibitions.' Our brothers in Palestine are, without a doubt, in a situation of extreme necessity to carry out martyrdom operations in order to unsettle their enemies and the plunderers of their land and to sow horror in their hearts so that they will leave, and return to the places from whence they came..."

"What weapon can harm their enemy, can prevent him from sleeping, and can strip him of a sense of security and stability, except for these human bombs - a young man or woman who blows himself or herself up amongst their enemy. This is a weapon the likes of which the enemy cannot obtain, even if the U.S. provides it with billions [of dollars] and the most powerful weapons, because it is a unique weapon that Allah has placed only in the hands of the men of belief. It is a type of divine justice on the face of the earth... it is the weapon of the wretched weak in the face of the powerful tyrant..."

Those Who Oppose Martyrdom Operations and Claim that they are Suicide are Making a Great Mistake

"Those who oppose martyrdom operations and claim that they are suicide are making a great mistake. The goals of the one who carries out a martyrdom operation and of the one who commits suicide are completely different. Anyone who analyzes the soul of [these two] will discover the huge difference between them. The [person who commits] suicide kills himself for himself, because he failed in business, love, an examination, or the like. He was too weak to cope with the situation and chose to flee life for death.

In contrast, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation does not think of himself. He sacrifices himself for the sake of a higher goal, for which all sacrifices become meaningless. He sells himself to Allah in order to buy Paradise in exchange. Allah said: 'Allah has bought from the believers their souls and their properties for they shall inherit Paradise.'

"While the [person who commits] suicide dies in escape and retreat, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation dies in advance and attack. Unlike the [person who commits] suicide, who has no goal except escape from confrontation, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation has a clear goal, and that is to please Allah..."
[/quote]

^ Sorry, but that's a bunch of hogwash. Is this argument really good enough to brainwash, err.. convince people that homicide bombings are justified? I'd like to see the fatwa that convinced you it is God's plan for us to put homosexuals to death, just to see if it is as 'convincing'.

The whole premise of this argument is false. Israel does not have the unique trait of a "society of invaders". Almost all countries have gone through this including the Jews who were kicked out of the Middle East hundreds of years ago.

...the Muslim clerics, or most of them, have agreed... Is that good enough for you to justify something that is clearly forbidden in Quran? "Jihad of necessity" is a lame way to say you can bend God's words and wishes to fit your agenda. Who defines necessity? A certain percentage of clerics? The whole piece could be taken apart sentence by sentence, but I don't have the time and I don't think it would change anyone's mind anyway.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
AAG.. as recently as 5 years ago, I was vehemently against and utterly disgusted by what I at that time considered to be "suicide bombings". In the years since, I have come to view them as being instead martyrdom operations.

The following is the argument that convinced me.

quote:

Martyrdom Operations,

"The martyrdom operations carried out by the Palestinian factions to resist the Zionist occupation are not in any way included in the framework of prohibited terrorism, even if the victims include some civilians. This is for several reasons:

First of all, due to the colonialist, occupational, racist, and [plundering] nature of Israeli society, it is, in fact, a military society. Anyone past childhood, man or woman, is drafted into the Israeli army. Every Israeli is a solider in the army, either in practical terms or because he is a reservist soldier who can be summoned at any time for war. This fact needs no proof. Those they call 'civilians' are in effect 'soldiers' in the army of the sons of Zion.

Second, Israeli society has a unique trait that makes it different from the other human societies, and that is that as far as the people of Palestine are concerned, it is a 'society of invaders' who came from outside the region - from Russia or America, from Europe or from the lands of the Orient - to occupy Palestine and settle in it..."

"Those who are invaded have the right to fight the invaders with all means at their disposal in order to remove [the invaders] from their homes and send them back to the homes from whence they came... This is a Jihad of necessity, as the clerics call it, and not Jihad of choice... Even if an innocent child is killed as a result of this Jihad - it was not intended, but rather due to the necessities of the war... Even with the passage of time, these [Israeli] so-called 'civilians' do not stop being invaders, evil, tyrants, and oppressors..."

"Third... It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected. Because they fight against and are hostile towards the Muslims, they annulled the protection of his blood and his property."

"Fourth, the Muslim clerics, or most of them, have agreed that it is permissible to kill Muslims if the army that attacks the Muslims hides behind them, that is, uses them as barricades or human shields, and sets them at the front so that the fire, arrows, or spears of the Muslims will harm them first. The clerics have permitted the defenders to kill these innocent Muslims, who were forced to stand at the head of the army of their enemies... Otherwise the invading army will enter and annihilate their offspring and their harvests. There was no choice but to sacrifice some [of the Muslims] in order to defend the entire [Muslim] community... Therefore, if it is permitted to kill innocent Muslims who are under coercion in order to protect the greater Muslim community, it is all the more so permissible to kill non-Muslims in order to liberate the land of the Muslims from its occupiers and oppressors.

Fifth, in modern war, all of society, with all its classes and ethnic groups, is mobilized to participate in the war, to aid its continuation, and to provide it with the material and human fuel required for it to assure the victory of the state fighting its enemies. Every citizen in society must take upon himself a role in the effort to provide for the battle. The entire domestic front, including professionals, laborers, and industrialists, stands behind the fighting army, even if it does not bear arms. Therefore the experts say that the Zionist entity, in truth, is one army.

Sixth, there are two types of Fatwas: Fatwas concerning a situation of calm and choice, and Fatwas concerning a situation of distress and necessity. It is permissible for a Muslim, when in a situation of extreme necessity, to do what is prohibited to him [in circumstances allowing] choice... Thus, one of the clerics has espoused the rule: 'Necessities permit prohibitions.' Our brothers in Palestine are, without a doubt, in a situation of extreme necessity to carry out martyrdom operations in order to unsettle their enemies and the plunderers of their land and to sow horror in their hearts so that they will leave, and return to the places from whence they came..."

"What weapon can harm their enemy, can prevent him from sleeping, and can strip him of a sense of security and stability, except for these human bombs - a young man or woman who blows himself or herself up amongst their enemy. This is a weapon the likes of which the enemy cannot obtain, even if the U.S. provides it with billions [of dollars] and the most powerful weapons, because it is a unique weapon that Allah has placed only in the hands of the men of belief. It is a type of divine justice on the face of the earth... it is the weapon of the wretched weak in the face of the powerful tyrant..."

Those Who Oppose Martyrdom Operations and Claim that they are Suicide are Making a Great Mistake

"Those who oppose martyrdom operations and claim that they are suicide are making a great mistake. The goals of the one who carries out a martyrdom operation and of the one who commits suicide are completely different. Anyone who analyzes the soul of [these two] will discover the huge difference between them. The [person who commits] suicide kills himself for himself, because he failed in business, love, an examination, or the like. He was too weak to cope with the situation and chose to flee life for death.

In contrast, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation does not think of himself. He sacrifices himself for the sake of a higher goal, for which all sacrifices become meaningless. He sells himself to Allah in order to buy Paradise in exchange. Allah said: 'Allah has bought from the believers their souls and their properties for they shall inherit Paradise.'

"While the [person who commits] suicide dies in escape and retreat, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation dies in advance and attack. Unlike the [person who commits] suicide, who has no goal except escape from confrontation, the one who carries out a martyrdom operation has a clear goal, and that is to please Allah..."
[/QUOTE]

I just saw some hick red neck general on the Tv saying that the wedding party massacre the US carried out in Iraq was, in his words loosely "sh!t happens in war"

So anything is game?

well no body is gonna change his or her coz u seem to be supportin jews, what do u think it should be left like that and u gonna watch people bleed, what sense u got, it is easy to say try to be practical…:kaboom: :stupid:

[QUOTE]
mAd_ScIeNtIsT

First of all, due to the colonialist, occupational, racist, and [plundering] nature of Israeli society, it is, in fact, a military society. Anyone past childhood, man or woman, is drafted into the Israeli army. Every Israeli is a solider in the army, either in practical terms or because he is a reservist soldier who can be summoned at any time for war. This fact needs no proof. Those they call 'civilians' are in effect 'soldiers' in the army of the sons of Zion.
[/QUOTE]

Plundering nature of Israeli society?

Mad...come on...you buy that?

Factually the people in the society are required to become soldiers........

As a buffer against oppression and then extermination as experienced 1933-1945 Nazi Europe.

Think about it....

1948 seemingly safe homeland established?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
AAG.. as recently as 5 years ago, I was vehemently against and utterly disgusted by what I at that time considered to be "suicide bombings". In the years since, I have come to view them as being instead martyrdom operations.
[/QUOTE]

mAd_ScIeNtIsT,

Why were you against suicide bombings 5 years ago?

What reasons did you hold?

What was it that encouraged you to agree with the opinion you quote?

thanxss mad sicentist for posting such fantastic

thanks mad scientist, these ppl. will never understand they just say we are mad :rotfl:

hehe ya these people dont say single word against killings o fmuslims and when eva muslims reply,they label them as terrisot …
support suicde attackers and muhaddins …they r the hopes

The whole load of excuses given with the allowance of suicide bombing are absolute crap.

Why? First off, any such acts will only fuel a stronger attack against them. The fact is, they can not fight Israel in the open. They'll keep doing these idiotic suicide attacks and

1) hurting the muslim position world-wide, by showing the world that they dont mind killing innocent civilians.

2) and they'll not get ANYWHERE in this manner!! Thats the saddest part. They dont realize where the world is going. You need to control media, you need to have technology on your side (as far as weapons are concerned atleast), and their kids will grow up learning how to hate israelis and handle guns, but this is not how wars are won now.

The definition of jihad (against an opressing nation) can change with time. And right now, they need to build a position of power first, instead of relying on age old tactics which are only hurting them.

Mad, its really odd that you believe this to be correct, since it aint getting them anywhere!!

Btw, one thing i do find odd, why really is there so much quiet on the killing of palestinians (civilians, no less) and loads of noise on the killing of israeli civilians? That is strange.. Any of those here (americans specially) who are speaking against suicide bombings, have you guys given that any thought? Lets just assume that suicide bombings are a result of israelis occupying their land and killing their people

orginally posted by ammarr "The whole load of excuses given with the allowance of suicide bombing are absolute crap.

Why? First off, any such acts will only fuel a stronger attack against them. The fact is, they can not fight Israel in the open. They’ll keep doing these idiotic suicide attacks and

  1. hurting the muslim position world-wide, by showing the world that they dont mind killing innocent civilians.

  2. and they’ll not get ANYWHERE in this manner!! Thats the saddest part. They dont realize where the world is going. You need to control media, you need to have technology on your side (as far as weapons are concerned atleast), and their kids will grow up learning how to hate israelis and handle guns, but this is not how wars are won now.

The definition of jihad (against an opressing nation) can change with time. And right now, they need to build a position of power first, instead of relying on age old tactics which are only hurting them.

Mad, its really odd that you believe this to be correct, since it aint getting them anywhere!!"

Tell us how we need to win war in palestine and for ur kind information do u know the brutalities of israeli occupation. I think u play wars in computer games:kaboom: :rotfl:

There is no war to win. Both sides need to accept the existance of the other on that land.

I thought jihad was emotional idea.

I thought the definition of jihad was struggle.

My understanding was that (jihad) ideal as struggle against our human faults in order to please God and exemplify the grace of God.