sufisam ( lets talk about it )

yazdi in other thread
declared that
sufisam is true islam and thoes who believe sufisam is not part of islam follow mullaisam not islam

so here i ask him and others who follow sufisam

  1. bring any ayat of Quran or hadees who favours sufisam
  2. don’t make confusion by refering ulmah as sufi ( a habit in india and pakistan )
    3 prove the believe of sufi isam that man is God himself
  3. prove that wahdat ul wajood , the believe of sufisam is correct
    5 prove that sufi can be more muslim then Hazoor PBUH and sahaba
  4. prove that sufi can do things which even Hazoor PBUH or sahaba were unable to do
  5. prove that died sufies can help you and prayers to them leads you to right way

on your answers i will proceed inshallah
take care

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

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Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

^^ What did you write?

Oh for the topic starter, bring me any direct hadith from the prophet or quranic verses that justify suicide bombings or londabazi [prohibited, right?] in our tribal areas..

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

plz stick to the topic ( no off topic discussion , start new thread if you want debate on this )

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

sufi sam, is he something like yosemite sam?
mullai sam sounds like some gawala, maybe you can find them at nagori milk shops.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

yosemite ? sorry i can't understand this due to my poor english :(

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

These are not relavant questions. Sorry to say...

Sufisim is only an interpretation of Islam, just the same as wahbism is an iterpretation... Sufism is not a seperate sect the way that Shia and Sunni are.

The Koran itself does not advocate any one interpretation... But its open to interpretation, and Sufis interpret it very differently then most others.

Sufism is a spiritual mystic movement which harnesses the teaching of Islam to come closer to god...

Man and god are not LITERALLY one... God and Man are one only in the sense that we are a creation of god... The same way a painting can be thought of as being one with the artist.
Its speaking figuritivly.

Sufis have never claimed to be better Muslims then Hazoor... They see him as the ultimate Muslims and they strive to come close to his level of spiritual enlightenment.

Asking for blessings from Sufi saints is a harmless expression of religous devotion... Whether you agree with it or not is a seperate issue, but its a harmelss prctice that gives comfort to many people.
Sufis do believe that to attain certain spiritual levels, one has to follow the teaching of a teacher or guide, hence a Sufi Saint is essential on the road to God.

Sufis strive to UNDERSTAND the meaning of EVERY line of the Koran... They meditate on its meaning... They arent satisfied with the shallow intepretation of the Mullahs.
Sufis are truly peaceful, they strive too help mankind.. Unlike our mainstream mullahs who generally have no other role but to decide who is or isnt a Muslim, handing out fatwas and calling jihads...

If anything, the Sufis have done FAR more in the understaning of the Quran then any Mullah ever could. If thats not true Islam then I dont know what is...

If your satisfied with your Shallow understanding of Islam, then thats your perogative.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

^^ I stronly object on your statement "Sufis are like this (good) .... while Mullas are like (evil)

I think it is not fair to start a comparison between Mullaism and Sufiism. Both thought process serve Islam in their own way. Sufism alone cannot do, niether Mullaism alon, what they did combined. Lot of Sufis were actually studens of Aalims (what you are refereing to Mullas) and some Sufis were Aalim, themselves.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

Well, im sorry if your offended... But when you have people who call themselves Mullahs, claiming to be the reservoir of Islamic knowledge, all while calling for the murder of infidels, and passing fatwas against anything that moves, that not something that will inspire respect...
Mullahs have destroyed their own image, and its sad, but the fact remains, that everything thats retrogressive within the Muslim world has come to be associated with Mullahs.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )


brother, the good and the bad is everywhere, but when people concentrate on a specific "attire" and "get-up" as a mark of recognition, this is bound to happen... and I don't just mean mullahs, and hence my objection to a specific "appearance" and "label".

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

Sufi Sam is a legend

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/sufi_sam/

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

^ Very well writen and I agree with your thoughts. Just to add a little bit more.

In my humble opinion, a Sufism and Sufis are not the adherents of a particular sect like contemporary Ulemas etc. They may be found in any community or denomination.

From a Sufi point of view, Hazrat Abdul Qadir Jillani known as Peeran-e-Peer by Brelvis was both a **Sufi *and a *Hambali** as evident from his book Ghunia-tul-Talibeen.

Hazrat Abdul Latif Qadri known as Bari Imam was a both a Sufi and a Shia.


Hazrat La'al Shahbaz Qalandar was both a **Sufi *and a *Shia.**

Hazrat Syed Muhammad Hussain Shah Qadri known as Hazrat Kakay Shah was also both a Sufi and a Shia.

*****Hazrat Syed Shams-ud-din Sabzwari* was both a Sufi and an Ismaili.

Hazrat Imdad Ullah Mahajir Makki was both a Sufi and a Deobandi.

Whereas most of the Aulia never claimed to be Brelvis themselves, but since thay are mostly venerated by Brelvis, once gets a false impression that most of them were Sunni Brelvis.

Wassalam.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

I agree with both of you on one point. Self claimed Aalims/Scholars or self represented leaders of Muslims are the one giving our community, bad name

But this is very recent. Can we go back 25-30, maybe 60 years ago. How about 100/200 years ago. Can you compare Shah Wali Ullah or Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi with Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti and think that one was better then the other. I think all of them did a lot of service for Islam in theri capacity

Why is that when we analyze the roles of Aalims. scholars, Mufti or any religious leader of Msulims, we get stuck with in last 10-15 years. That is pretty narrow point of view, as per my thinking

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )


brother, usually the legend is mightier than the man... so the best definition for a particular "label" is from its contemporary stance since it is right there in front of you. No human trend is timeless.

And more importantly, aalim does not mean he who is knowledgeble in Islamic tradition only, and vice versa... I would rather consider people such as IbnRushd, Jaabir, and ibn-Khalduun as aalim.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

okey so bring out the verses that support that interpretation (if you say it is interpretation )

[quote]

The Koran itself does not advocate any one interpretation... But its open to interpretation, and Sufis interpret it very differently then most others.

[/quote]

can you compare their interpretation with the one done By Hazoor PBUH in ahadees
can you bring ahadees supporting them

[quote]

Sufism is a spiritual mystic movement which harnesses the teaching of Islam to come closer to god...

Man and god are not LITERALLY one... God and Man are one only in the sense that we are a creation of god... The same way a painting can be thought of as being one with the artist.
Its speaking figuritivly.

[/quote]

Does Hazoor PBUH did this interpretation or he forgot to do this in your opinion
similarly why hindus are called mushrik when they do same interpretation that God , Man , tree , everything is God

[quote]

Sufis have never claimed to be better Muslims then Hazoor... They see him as the ultimate Muslims and they strive to come close to his level of spiritual enlightenment.

[/quote]

honestly plz tell me have you ever read the claims and books of sufies
have you ( plz tell honestly )

[quote]

Asking for blessings from Sufi saints is a harmless expression of religous devotion... Whether you agree with it or not is a seperate issue, but its a harmelss prctice that gives comfort to many people.

[/quote]

same words quote by hindus when they ask blessing from idols don't they
christens also quote same words don't they
then why Quran call them mushrik

[quote]

Sufis do believe that to attain certain spiritual levels, one has to follow the teaching of a teacher or guide, hence a Sufi Saint is essential on the road to God.

[/quote]

and does real teacher Hazoor PBUH told them to do so any where
plz bring it out , it will be helpful for me

[quote]

Sufis strive to UNDERSTAND the meaning of EVERY line of the Koran... They meditate on its meaning... They arent satisfied with the shallow intepretation of the Mullahs.

[/quote]

does they understand quran better then Hazoor PBUH and sahaba so they interpret it differently

[quote]

Sufis are truly peaceful, they strive too help mankind..

[/quote]

ya rahib are truly peaceful , as they move away from cities and villages but is this is allowed in islam to leave the daily life and become rahib

[quote]

Unlike our mainstream mullahs who generally have no other role but to decide who is or isnt a Muslim, handing out fatwas and calling jihads...

[/quote]

leave what they say , for every thing , that is islamic or not , we have to check it through Quran and Hadees
and lets collect all thoes ayat and ahadees which support sufisam. If sufisam belongs to islam then ayat and ahadees will be there to support them

[quote]

If anything, the Sufis have done FAR more in the understaning of the Quran then any Mullah ever could. If thats not true Islam then I dont know what is...

If your satisfied with your Shallow understanding of Islam, then thats your perogative.
[/QUOTE]

the real problem i am seaing that you are also mixing ulmah and sufies

also let collect the wordings of sufis as well and check either they are according to islam or not

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

a nice article from http://www.allaahuakbar.net/sufism/what_is_a_sufi_and_what_is_sufis.htm

What is a Sufi and What is Sufism?

Sufi: a follower of Sufism

Sufism: a sect that has introduced many innovated practices and beliefs into the religion of Islam while claiming to be mystical

Sufism was not known in the time of the Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) or his Companions, nor was it well known in the first three generations after them. It first appeared in Basrah in Iraq, where some people went to extremes in worship and in avoiding the worldly life, something which is admonished in the Quran:

"The Monasticism which they invented for themselves; We did not prescribe it for them." Qur’an 57:27

Sufis belong to the Illumist school of philosophy which holds that knowledge and awareness is brought about in the soul by spiritual exercises.** Orthodox Islam holds that one can achieve true knowledge and awareness through the acts of worship that exist in the Quran and Sunnah**.

Sufism is often, willfully or otherwise, referred to by Sufis themselves, or by orientalists, as “Islamic mysticism”, in order to give the impression that Islam is either wholly or partly an esoteric religion, **with a set of dogmatic rituals to be understood by the elite alone-in this class, the Sufis! **Unfortunately, the lack of any sound critical analysis of the subject in the English language allows these orientalists to flood the English and North American book market with literature that stands unchallenged, and dupes naive Muslims into believing that true salvation can only be attained by pursuing a mystical order. Their vain goal strips Islam of its Universality. **The Sufis have introduced many innovations into Islam in the name of Tasawwuf and have justified such practises by fabricated statements and unsound arguments **

Although many sects have appeared throughout the ages, none have outlasted as long and spread their effects into the homes of so many as Sufism has. The emotional attachment that a countless number of Muslims have towards this sect is so powerful that any analysis should be purely from an objective perspective; Its conclusions however leave no doubt as to the alien nature of Sufi teachings that have infiltrated into the religion that our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.s) left us upon.

True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: which means,

“He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion, the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you ‘Muslims’ both before (in the preceding Divine Scriptures) and in this Book.” (22.78)

Ibn Kathir elaborated on this verse, saying: "Allah has chosen the Muslims, honoured them, and distinguished them exclusively of other nations by the most honourable Messenger and the most perfect religion, and He has not overburdened them with more than they can bear.

Sufis believe that their teachers are also a source for legislation in worship, as they will order them to carry out acts of worship that have no basis in either the Quran or the Sunnah. The extremists from amongst them often claim that Allah dwells within His creation (i.e. in people’s hearts, internal organs etc.). Consequently, they ascribe to their Sufi teachers attributes and powers which only belong to Allah, such as the knowledge of the unseen.

They often claim that the texts of the Quran and the Sunnah have an outer, apparent meaning, and as well, an inner, hidden meaning. They hold that the outer, apparent meaning is known to those who practice orthodox Islam, while the inner and hidden meanings of the Quran and Sunnah are known only to their teacher and order. These teachers will often claim that since they have advanced to the inner and hidden meaning of Islam, they no longer need to pray or fast, something that not even the Prophets were excused from.

Like many other Sufi doctrines, pantheism is adopted from man-made religions and philosophies, as confirmed by S. R. Sharda in his book, Sufi Thought

“Sufi literature of the post-Timur period shows a significant change in thought content. It is pantheistic. After the fall of Muslim orthodoxy from power at the centre of India for about a century, due to the invasion of Timur, the Sufi became free from the control of the Muslim orthodoxy and consorted with Hindu saints, who influenced them to an amazing extent.** The Sufi adopted Monism and wifely devotion from the Vaishnava Vedantic school and Bhakti and Yogic practices from the Vaishnava Vedantic school. By that time, the popularity of the Vedantic pantheism among the Sufis had reached its zenith.**”

If Sufis insist that they are Muslims, then what is the sense of identifying themselves with Sufism rather than with Islam. The word “Sufism” was not familiar to those who lived in the first and the best three generations of as-Salaf as-Salih (the pious predecessors) who were commanded by Allah the Exalted and His Messenger Muhammad (s.a.w.s)

Ibn Taymiyyah makes this clear in his 'Majmu al-Fatawa: 'Some people accept everything of sufism, what is right as well as what is wrong; others reject it totally, both what is wrong and what is right, as some scholars of kalam and fiqh do. The right attitude towards sufism, or any other thing, is to accept what is in agreement with the Quran and the Sunnah, and reject what does not agree’" [Majmu Fatawa Shaykh al-Islam, Vol. 10, p. 82]

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

These are some of the exact people whom I was talking about in another thread when I referred to their contribution in spreading of Islam. Ofcourse I do not disagree that every Islamic belief has to be audited in the light of Quran and sunnah, these Aulia also took care of more human aspect of spritual comfort which most of us need. Specially when they were spreading Islam they were well aware of the fact THAT THE SPRITUAL NEEDS OF THESE CONVERTS are different to born muslims and they tried to bring spritual comfort to these people through LOVE OF GOD....

If you think carefully their strategy proved much more sucessful compared for instance to our present day preachers....

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

Karamat of Sufies ( which even Hazoor PBUH and sahaba were unable to do )

  1. once peraney peer abdul qadir jeelani had eaten chiken and put bones one side and put his hand on thoes bones and said "Qum bey iz nillahey" and** bones changed in to alive chiken"** ( seratey Ghuass page 191)

  2. on the grave of one singer, peraney peer said "qum bey izni" and **grave shattered and murda (dead) become alive **and came out while singing (tafreh ul khatir page 19 )

3 ** khwaja ab ashaq chishti** when wanted to do travel he shuts his eyes along with 200 other peoples and in no second they reached the destination (tahreekh mashaeekh chisht az molana zikriya page 192)

4 syed modod chishti died at the age of 97 , first his janaza was read by "Rijal ul Ghaib" ( dead buzurg ) then comman man and after that** janaza start flaying in air **and after seeing this karamat many people turned to islam (tareekh mashaikh chisht page 160 )

5 khawaja Usman harooni once had done wozoo and took a small child and went into fire , for two hours he remaind their but** fire didn't harm neither him nor child** , seeing this many fire worshipper turned to islam ( tareekh mashaikh chisht page 124)

  1. one women came weeping to** Khawaja fareed u deen ganj shakar** and said king had hanged my innocent child , so he reached there and said "ilahi if he is innocent make him alive " and **boy become alive **and start walking with them , seeing this karamat 1000 hindu become muslim (asrar ul oliya page 110-111)

  2. one man asked in darga ghussia for a male child but girl was borned , he (ghossia) said take her to home and when he reached home , the girl had been changed into boy (safeen ul oliya page 17)

  3. peraney peer ghoos azam was coming back to baghdad from madeen , bare footed , in the way he met a thief when the thief come to know that he was Ghoas e azam , he fell into his foots and said , "Ya sayedi Abdul Qadir Shaneenallah" , he( peerany peer ) felt sorry for him and prayed for his forgiveness and voice came from Ghaib "turn the theif in to kutub" so with his one "Faiz e Niga" the thief turned in to kutub (seerat ghaussia page 640)

  4. Khawaja alawo deen sabir kaleeri was sent to kaleer by khawaja fareed ud deen ghanj shakar , once khawaja sat on the place of imam , people forbade him that kutab are higher in rank then qazi , people pushed him away from that place ,when he didn't got place to pray in mosque , he said to mosque , "people do sajda , you should also do sajda" , as soon as he said the words the mosque collapse and all people inside the mosque died (hadeeka ul oliya page 70)

and there are huge list of other karamats which was not possible even by sahaba

how you people will support this, i need justification

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

Although their time was different then our time, I agree with your comment on the strategy part.

Their strategy was more based on tolerance and self sacrifice, if needed. Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi (Mujaddid Alf-e-Sani) put himself at stake when he opposed Akbar's deen-e-ilaahi.

If it was today's leaders, they would be asking others to come on street or do suicide bombing and themselves hiding in a cave.

Re: sufisam ( lets talk about it )

Dear Sir/Madame
Do you not think that my post and your reply thereupon seem un-related.
Regards.