Stop Destroying Pakistan

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Ever notice why the two Western Provinces Baluchistan + Pakhtunistan are in flames?

People are going to say that I am coming with my biases, but things would be very different if Pakistanis stood up for Pakistan.

Baluchistan

FATA-Pakhtunistan

Yes Baluchis (BLA) and Pakhtuns (Taliban) are terrorists..but what about the people? The civilians?

If you say that they are collateral damage then G-d damn watan faroosh Pakistanis killing their fellow Muslim Pakistani brothers and sisters. You are no different than the American occupiers of Muslim lands.

Hate goes both ways, don’t forget your history, because we have not forgetten ours. When most of Pakistan was laboring under the Sikhs/British in Punjab and Hindus/British in Sindh, Pakhtuns and Baluchis fought till the last man. Now you do the bidding of Americans (cousins of the British) and tear the nation apart.

Pakistan Zindabad!

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PO bro! Yes you definitely have your biases.
And under the very bias you are now making up a false history.

Ranjit Singh from Punjab took out Pakhtuns without any problem. Yes some Tribal areas were trouble makers just like today. But most of the settled areas of Pakistani-Frontier region were taken over by the Punjabis. Don't you even know the history of Peshawar?

And don't you even start me with Balochi history. OK! huh! Balochi history! yeah right!

Creating anarchy in Allah's land is criminal at best, and you want us to support it all in the name of a made up false history?

And why do these Pakhtuns forget the immense sacrifices of Punjabis and Muhajirs when Commies invaded the real Pakhtunistan aka Afghanistan.?

Now that Commies are gone, Pakhtuns don't know how to stop. Then why to blame anyone else but the Pakhtuns themselves. Oh well that is a tough thing to do for a ghairat-mands.

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Stop crying. Who is hating Punjabis, Muhajirs, Sindhis, or Bengalis? I am just mentioning history before Pakistan where Muslims in Punjab, Sindh and India were being kicked around. Is that not a fact? Were the Punjabis coming from India not massacred? The bottom line is that they were more oppressed by time Pakistan was created.

After all these sacrifices for Pakistan, many people mostly from the eastern provinces have forgetten that Pakhtuns and Baluchis were for Pakistan and many continue to be in the fight for Pakistan. Attacks on civilians and innocents makes it really difficult to support Pakistani policies. Ofcourse secular scum could care less...If Pakistan is not made in the name of Islam, then the country should not exist. In Islam, attacking innocent Muslim civilians is not allowed, whether its the Taliban, BLA or the Pakistan (really American) Military.

This is going to be my last message to you on this thread so I will make it a good one.

What are you smoking when you talk about Ranjit Singh? Sure he pushed the Pakhtuns back and Pekhawar was lost for a short duration, compare that to how he ruled Lahore and he defiled the Mosques of Punjab. Pakhtuns lost because they were not united. Even when the Brits took over, Pehkhawar garrison was the limit of control not even the entire city. Cutting 'deals' and trying to pacify the Frontier was the British policy unlike other places in India where they had established direct control.

SO I guess Baluchis and Pakhtuns are not Pakistanis by your book and all civilian should be killed in the name of Taliban and the BLA.

You are on ignore.

PS:I am not anyones "bro" when they support the killing of innocent civilians.

Being found attractive by someone not your spouse
Being found attractive by someone not your spouse
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Re: Stop Destroying Pakistan

Are these N.D T.V clippings?

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Just for curiosity can you elaborate what sacrifices “Punjabis and Muhajirs" offered driving communists out from Afghanistan? Was it not Uncle Sam who pumped billions of $s to create jehadis like Alqaida and Taliban were main people who drove them out? So where you place "Punjabis and Muhajirs" with?Alqaida or Taliban? Muhajirs you mean MQM of AH, but they hate Taliban and Alqaida or any jehadi Mullah, apparently. What sacrifices are you talking about?

Antiji you have already tried to manipulate the history of Pakistan in other thread and I am still waiting for your response on Nehru Vs Azad comments; please don't try to distort the current history by manufacturing lies.

Imran Khan included in 2012 TIME 100 poll
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They are mixed, a few from Pak Tv.

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Brother, he is a disillusioned individual. I am not going to hate on Punjabis or Muhajirs or say stupid lies like 'Punjabi Army' etc because it is not true.

Are the PAKISTANI citizens of Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa in the line of fire by the Pakistani military? Definitely so!

Pakistani history is full of ghulami and subservience to the outside interests of America/British. Pakhtun and Baluch history defies this history. Yes, we are tribal, called barbarians by many Pakistanis, fundamentalists by others but if there Pakistan is not a nation for Muslims, then lets end this lie and go our separate ways.

Don't the divide become so great that the damage is irreparable.

  • Female Dr. getting raped in Baluchistan.
  • The Quran being descecrated by US/Pakistani Bombs.
  • Innocent children losing limbs, being butchered.

Is this the SO CALLED Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

So yes I am speaking out because these are our countrymen and I am dismayed to see the silence on the issue. If some joker wants to question my patriotism or commitment to Islam, then let him STEP UP. I don't sit here being an armchair tiger, I have defended Pakistan in places that may not show up in the news but hold vital importance to the nations future. Don't take Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa for granted, only Pakistan = Islam = Unity.

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Re: Stop Destroying Pakistan

If Balouchistan gets independence, they will be content with that. But if Islamists take control of Pakhtunkwa, they wont be content, they would like to take over Sindh, Punjab and Balouchistan as well.

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I dont get such threads because although you are speaking about Pakistan you seem to go on about the history of Pakhtuns. Theres alot of ethnic bias in it but then again everyone has bias in it.

Regarding Sikh vs Afghan wars - it was the Sikhs who pushed the Afghan empire back to its current borders. Whether the Afghans were united disunited is irrelevant - somany people lose because of disunity but a loss is a loss. The Sikhs took control over the Peshawar Valley - the Afghans did nt rule it and other areas after that. If the Afghans took control of it after that - then please correct me.

The current situation in NWFP and esp FATA is a mess but is there anyway out of it? What are the solutions - what would you do if you were in power - knowing a superpower is on your doorstep expecting a lot of action and if you dont deliver they will do it for you?
The elected government must decide how it wants to pursue its policy. The ANP would rather see these Taliban destroyed - they are from 2 different schools of thought.

As for Balochistan thats more about resources - the Baloch took up arms rightly or wrongly and some elements within them are attacking innocent people because they are Punjabi or Urdu - that is no way justifiable. If the Baloch want to improve their lives they must first get rid of the Sardar system which has been a major hurdle along with the Governments exploitative attitude .

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Can Baluchistan survive as a Separate Independent country? Will Baluchistan which is part of Iran also be part of this?

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Mostar no one is supporting Baluchistan's independence, particularly not me. What I am saying is that Pakistan's military tactics have NOT worked. They may have quelled the Baluch resistance in the short term but the hatred that has been caused by such operations exists at the individual level.

I am presently VNCing via Dubai where I am on business. There is a large Baluch expat population here and Oman. In my spare time I have been trying to hook up my old classmate, who researcher at Dartmouth College, with some of the Baluchis NGOs. In talking with the average expat, there is a lot of POLITICAL anger towards Pakistan. This does not mean that they are sitting their calling for independence but rather more economic rights.

As for Pakhtunkwa, I will address that separately. I think that the Baluch situation is more critical for the unity of the country. If I get the chance I will post my friends report on social development, once it has been published.

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The answer is NO. Baluchestan va Seistan will never be able to join Baluchistan because the IRI will flatten any opposition/independence movement.

I hope that Pakistan has never supported Jundollah because they are terrorists just like the BLA. In fact, Pakistan and Iran needs to address the economic problems of the Baluchistan region instead of pillaging the natural resources and creating soft border between the two regions to faciliatate greater movement.

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I dont get such threads because although you are speaking about Pakistan you seem to go on about the history of Pakhtuns. Theres alot of ethnic bias in it but then again everyone has bias in it.

Is Pakhtunkhwa a province of Pakistan? If you disagree, then we can shift the discussion elsewhere.

Let me be clear, I am a Pakistani Nationalist..If I had been a Pakhtun nationalist I would not be on here. If it is wrong to speak about Pakhtuns or Balushi civilians being massacred..If I am biased for doing so, then I fully accept that!

I am sure you people would be singing a different tune if Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad or your hometowns were being bombed and your family, friends, 'caste' was being annihilated, when Qurans were being insulted, women and children harmed.

Bro, I pray that this 'war'doesn't come to the settled districts because I am sure you will be right here protesting the atrocities.

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Regarding Sikh vs Afghan wars - it was the Sikhs who pushed the Afghan empire back to its current borders. Whether the Afghans were united disunited is irrelevant - somany people lose because of disunity but a loss is a loss. The Sikhs took control over the Peshawar Valley - the Afghans did nt rule it and other areas after that. If the Afghans took control of it after that - then please correct me.

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I am not making excuses. I am giving the reasons for the loss. The Sikh control of Pekhawar Valley was limited to the garrisons not like the political administration of Punjab. West of the Abasin, there plenty of tribes and militias active even in the Hindko areas like Mansehra and Attock that prevented the same kind of contol enjoyed by Ranjit Singh in places like Lahore and Gujranwala.

You are wrong about the absolutel boundaries, Ranjit Singh made it as far as Pekhawar but he never entered what is now FATA, in fact Mohmand agency was never under Sikh rule. The current line (Durand) was set up by the British that used political agents and payoffs to pacify the tribes.

Was it shameful for the Pakhtuns to lose to the Sikhs? Absolutely, but we lost but never SUBMITTED to the Sikh rule unlike the east of the Abasin.

All; you need to do is read Ranjit Singh's memoirs to see what he wrote about the Pakhtuns vs. Punjabi Musalmans.

**
The current situation in NWFP and esp FATA is a mess but is there anyway out of it? What are the solutions - what would you do if you were in power - knowing a superpower is on your doorstep expecting a lot of action and if you don't deliver they will do it for you?
The elected government must decide how it wants to pursue its policy. The ANP would rather see these Taliban destroyed - they are from 2 different schools of thought.
**

I support the present government's (NOT ANP) initiatives for truce and guarantees that civilians and Pakistani military does not get harmed. The amrikis and the watan faroosh Pakis don't like it becuas ethey would rather see more Muslim bloodshed in Pakistan and the seeds of hatred grow in the two provinces.

**
As for Balochistan thats more about resources - the Baloch took up arms rightly or wrongly and some elements within them are attacking innocent people because they are Punjabi or Urdu - that is no way justifiable. If the Baloch want to improve their lives they must first get rid of the Sardar system which has been a major hurdle along with the Governments exploitative attitude .**

Have you ever been to Baluchistan? If not, let me explain: The Urdu and Punjabi speaking 'settlers' are given the full protetion of the Pakistani military as if they are like British colonists administrators in Baluchistan. Northern Baluchistan has a large Pakhtun population as well..however that population has been their for centuries and accelerated after the USSR invasion of Afghanistan but no special proetections or treatment has been given to them. In fact the refugee camps of outside of Quetta are worse than Baluchi villages. To the best of my knowledge there is no open tension or even violent conflict between Baluchis and Pakhtuns.

Oh please , that sardar argument goes only so far. You're telling that Sardars are raping Women Doctors? Sending helicopter gunships to take out villages? I dont think so.

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PO - You are a good hearted person and you mean well for Pakistan (in your own way).

However you are also a prisoner of bad history (the one you heard from elders while sipping cahwa.)

It is time to rid yourself from the conspiracy theories and look for concrete steps. Here are some suggestions that you may want to carry with you to NGOs or whomever you meet during your trips to Dubai.

  1. Progress comes when people allow others to come work in their areas.
    ---Right now you can go take your money to Punjab, safely open a business, and buy a house. You can send your kids to a school of your choice just like your non-Pukhto citizens. Can you say the same thing about Tribal areas?

  2. Progress comes when people demand (and allow) development of infrastructure in their areas.
    ---Is it easy to build roads in Punjab or in Balochistan. Remember ZAB used aiforce to push back Balochis why? Just to build an ef-ing road and for whom? For Balochs.

  3. Progress comes when you do not destroy your own infrastructure. No matter what.
    --- That means you don't blast your electricity towers in your areas.

  4. Progress comes when you respect law enforcement agents (no matter what)
    ---- No matter how corrupt are the police officials, you respect them and one day you will see progress.

  5. Progress comes when you treat your women as equal, and do not destroy girls schools
    ---- Do you know how much damage is being done by your pukhto brothers when they destroy even a single girls school? How many generations of the would-be Pukhto mothers will remain illitrate just because some pukhto brothers were angry at Amreeka?

There are many more pointers. But just remember these 5 and you will do something positive. There is no reason for you to defend militancy in one context or the other.

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Re: Stop Destroying Pakistan

EACH one of us who means well for the home country can do immense things in an effort to save it from bein destroyed.

if all educated and well to do people who are honest and patriot were to bridge the gap between the social-economic and religious as well as political differences especially eradicating the malicious lot among the nation, things will be far better.

the system needs to be corrupted with fairness. the ideal corruption of this particular kind will serve to be the attentuation of the social ills/ diseases, which the country currently has been infected with by due to dishonest and dis-loyal people.

best community health, higher standards for education for all people of all ages and massive civilian employment efforts will ensure that both the country and its political as well as legal system is not burdened by scum actions of ignorant and unethical people who are devoid of moral conscience and are without any reins on them.

the process is one that will require utmost care in taking the strides in this regard.

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Your actually forgetting for now Pakhtunkhwa does not exist and if the Government does not get its act together it may never exist.
Its not wrong to speak out against anyone being massacred but its about time people took responsibility for their own actions. Why don’t the local Pakhtuns from the FATA do the decent thing and kick out the troublemakers – or do they want them to stay? Those troublemakers come with baggage – the American military machine which quite frankly the tribals would be crushed by.
Regardless of where Ranjit Singh entered he still managed to capture the Peshawar Valley and the Afghans have never been able to take it back since. I wont go in to a debate about Pakhtuns vs Punjabi Muslims because there is a lot of dirt to be thrown at both.
I have been Balochistan so many times and quite frankly I am bored of their lame excuses cursing Punjabis, Muhajirs or Pakistan when they can’t even how most of their tribal leaders live. Where the Baloch have settled ie Balochistan, Southern Punjab, Sindh – they are some of the most extremely feudal people. A lot of feudals within Sindh and Southern Punjab belong to Baloch origin.

There are MANY Punjabi and Urdu speakers living outside of the Army’s protection. In Quetta alone there may be up to 100,000 Punjabis.
Baloch and Pashtuns have had historical conflicts and conflicts within the 1980’s and 1990’s. The Baloch resent the fact a lot of their areas are Pashtun-ized and that so many businesses even in the Baloch heartlands are owned by Pashtuns. The Government has always supported Pashtuns against Baloch. The greatest threat to Baloch culture and economics is not Punjabis but Pashtuns. If Gwadar becomes a success it wont be Punjabis flocking there but Pashtuns.

The Sardars have killed a lot of their own people and probably CRUSH rebellious people in a far more cruel way than the Army will. Given the power and influence Baloch Sardar’s have I am pretty much sure they could get away with genocide. When Bugti was killed a whole tribe of Baloch were allowed back into Dera Bugti – he had forced them to leave.

I agree with Burqaposhx on point no2 – progress can only come when people want it to come. Some tribes have taken stupid oaths to make sure things don’t change n their area. People must want change and not just mobile phones.

On point no5 – women’s rights are probably at their lowest within the Balochistan and NWFP provinces in the whole of South Asia. The Baloch are more secular and progressive but eve they can be very conservative and the honour of womenfolk sadly shows a family’s status still. This is linked to education and these 2 regions contain some of the least developed regions in Pakistan. The Islamic rights given to women are all denied even in those so called Islam-ised areas.

As much as I hate seeing Pakistan being a ghulam to American policy it does nt mean I want extremists I power. I wish to see these trouble causing extremists dealt with in the proper way. If the tribal don’t want a war on their back then they should so something to kick these people out. The tribals are either aiding the extremists or taken over and cant do much now. At this moment in time the tribals should count themselves lucky it just has the half-hearted Pakistan Army to deal with – if the militants are not brought under control – the Americans will do much more about it. If these militants were bothered about Pakistan the would not behave the way they do – issuing directives like they are the elected representatives, closing girls schools, banning people from stopping shaving, suicide bombing, attacking the state security apparatus etc. This makes them ANTI-pakistan and they should be dealt with accordingly.

It is these militants which are destroying Pakistan the most right now.

The change must come within the tribal people – it wont come from Peshawar, Islamabad or Washington.

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Re: Stop Destroying Pakistan

^

Yes I get it..Baluchis and Pakhtuns are responsible for all their troubles, maybe the Pakistani military has been too lenient on FATA and Baluchistan..they should just nuke the place becuase those backward tribals and cruel sardars will never learn. Maybe that way the enlightened Punjabis, Muhaji and and everyone but the Baluchis and Pakhtuns will make the provinces formally known as Baluchistan and NWFP so much better.

Oh yes Pakhtuns don’t belong in the areas west of the Abasin err sorry the Indus (Since Pakhtuns don’t exist, what is abasin right?). Besides those Pakhtun troublemakers in Baluchistan have caused so much trouble and conflict that Baluchis regularly engage them in violent battles throughout the province :rolleyes:

In case you’re wondering, this is the theory that thejoke would like us all to believe. Is anyone surpised why this message board consists of people who just don’t get it. Whats next, am I going to be accused of doctoring the videos with the proof of atrocities? Yes thats also a figment of the imagination.

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PO, you can't be serious. Why are you crapping your own thread?

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Why Iran fuels the Balouch uprising in Pakistan and why does Pakistan have to grin and bear it
The Balouchi Sardars are again making news. This time again they are threatening an insurgency. Baluchistan has a troubled history since independence. The Khan of Kalat delayed accession to Pakistan till the last. Then again in early 60's the army had to be used to put down a rebellion in Kalat. The most prolonged period of unrest was in 1970s when the army had to fight an insurgency for over 3 years before it was crushed. SO Iran finds a fertile ground to exploit to sow an insurgency against Pakistan. But why does Iran do this?

According to an article in the London Sunday telegraph, by Massoud Ansari, Pakistan has quietly and unofficially blamed Iran for fueling the growing insurgency in Baluchistan, the strategically sensitive province where militant tribesmen have launched a series of terrorist attacks in recent weeks.
Senior government officials say Iran is encouraging "intruders" from within its own Balouch community to cross the 550-mile border with the Pakistani province and give support to the rebels.

Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency set up a unit in the provincial capital, Quetta, last year to monitor suspected Iranian activity in Baluchistan. Officials say that in addition to directly supporting the insurgency, Tehran's state-controlled radio has launched a propaganda campaign against Islamabad. "Radio Tehran broadcasts between 90 and 100 minutes of programs every day which carry propaganda against the Pakistan government," said a former interior minister. He added that Iran was suspected of providing financial, logistical and moral backing for the insurgency.

"All this violence is a part of a greater conspiracy," a senior Pakistani government official said. "These militants would not be challenging the government so openly without the backup of a foreign hand."

But what does Shia Iran gain by destabilizing Baluchistan. After all the Balouch are overwhelmingly Sunni. The reason is Iran's fear of Pakistani complicity in the impending American action against their country. Iran fears that Pakistan is about to reenact its role vis-a- vis the Taliban immediately after 9/11 and before the US action against the Taliban began

For any movement of American group troops into eastern Iran, Pakistan's support would be essential (this is similar to the US request to Turkey for allowing US marines to move into Iraq from its northern border with Turkey.) Iran's fundamentalist Muslim regime was last week put firmly in the sights of the second Bush administration by Vice President Dick Cheney. "You look around the world at potential trouble spots ? Iran is right at the top of the list," Mr. Cheney said.

Iran has exploited the prevailing grievance among tribesmen who claim to have been denied the benefits of Baluchistan's natural-gas fields. Earlier this month, Balouch rebels disrupted gas production in a series of rocket and mortar attacks, which killed eight persons. However, the reason Islamabad is delaying a formal complaint to Tehran, trying to sort out the issue thru private diplomatic channels and not raise it at the UN, as it does the Kashmir issue to keep under wraps the Pakistani gameplan of assisting the US in the impending action against Iran.

Pakistan does not want this to be highlighted to unleash the full fury of its own Jihadi constituency to raise hell as it did during the US action against the Taliban. So for the time being Pakistan has to grin and bear it. Meanwhile, large numbers of Pakistani troops are hunting rebels in the province and in turn are being hunted by the rebels, who have besieged a large battalion of Pakistani troops in Baluchistan. The battle is fierce although furtive.
Pakistani officials privately acknowledge that Tehran ? already furious at Pakistan's support for the U.S.-led war on terrorism ? has stepped up its activity in Baluchistan because of its anger at the construction of a vast deep-water port at Gwadar, close to the Iranian border, which it fears could be used by Washington as a base for monitoring and infiltrating and use it as a launch pad for moving ground troops in a future land assault on Iran.
Washington believes Iran is pursuing an advanced nuclear-weapons program in addition to sponsoring international terrorism, and has repeatedly accused Tehran of fomenting trouble within Iraq and through its proxy Hezbollah in Israel.
Senior American journalist Seymour Hersh had reported in the New Yorker that U.S. special forces had carried out recent reconnaissance missions inside Iran to identify nuclear, chemical and missile sites that could be targeted. Although the Bush administration brushed aside the claims, the report heightened the belief that the United States might be preparing to take action. The US obviously wants to hide the red rag, before it is ready to take on the bull.