Stoning to death is not Islamic

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[quote]
BTW have you circumcised? I you had , why?? when it is not written in the Qur’an?
[/quote]

Mr. Ibrahim,

When will you get it into your closed thinking that this is not the best of arguments when pressed against the wall about matters like stoning.

If you do something socially or for medical reasons, it does not make it mandatory.

The Qur'an certainly doesn't make it mandatory.

It's a choice. One needs to study prevailing research which btw is heavily contested and either side claims that circumcision is harmful or helpful and the debate goes on.

Current practices are NOT proof that a scripture is incomplete. You wouldn't find Christmas trees and Santa Claus in the Bible now would you?? Does that render the Bible incomplete or does that raise questions about the current practice of hanging ornaments on trees... an obvious pagan tradition.

This has nothing to do with the stoning debate.. neither the fact that someone is circumcised or not, or ahmadjee is an Ahmadi, Gandalf may or may not be a shia, rvizk and others non-muslim and PCG a woman.

Base your argument on facts, do not resort to name calling or derogatory comments as it really makes you look more lost ... if it were at all possible.

42

As-Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

Just to clarify. Prophet Musa and all the Prophets of Allah(swt) were not muslim because they just believed in one God alone but they believed and spread all aspects of Tawheed. Of course part of Tawheed is to believe in one God but there is much more.

If anyone thinks that Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah ONLY means there is one God, then they are very much mistaken.

Again I reiterate. Tawheed is the single most important topic in Islaam. A lot of arguments in the forum stem from a single point – a lack of understand in Tawheed.

Please read my previous mail regarding the message of the Prophets above and please please please read the links on Tawheed. We must clarify this point so that comments regarding status Jews and Christians are cleared up and then we do not continue to believe that Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah ONLY means there is one God. It does, but it also means much more!

Think about the following evidence brothers and sisters:

In the Qur’aan Allaah tells the Prophet (saws) to say to the pagans:
“Say: ‘Who is it that gives you all sustenance from the sky and earth, governs sight and hearing, brings forth life from dead (matter) and death from the living, and plans the affairs of man?’ They will all say ‘Allaah’.” [Surah Yunus 10:31]

"If you asked them who created them, they would surely say, ‘Allaah’ "
[Surah az-Zukhruf 43:87]

“If you asked them who brings down water from the sky and with it brings the earth to life after its death? They will most certainly say, ‘Allaah’.”
[Surah al-Ankaboot 29:63]

The pagan Makkans all knew that Allaah was their creator, sustainer, their Lord and Master yet that knowledge did not make them Muslims according to God. In fact, Allaah said:

“Most of them do not believe in Allaah except while joining partners to Him.”
[Surah Yusuf 12:106]

In spite of the Makkans’ confessions of believe in one God, Allaah classified them as disbelievers (Kuffaar) and pagans (Mushrikoon) simply because they worshipped other gods along with their worship of Allaah. i.e. they believed in one part of Tawheed but rejected another i.e.Tahweed al-Ebaadah.

This is clear proof that to be a muslim we must practice all aspects of Tawheed and not just some while rejecting other parts. Only then is the principle of Tawheed - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah – complete.

Here are those links:
Please find time to get and read the following book.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/abutaw/abutaw_1.html

Other very important information on tauheed/aqeedah can be found in the links below. It explains the the kalimah (word) of tauheed, 'La ilaha ill-Allah" according to how the Prophet(saw) taught it and how it was understood by his companions.
http://www.islaam.net/display/display.php?category=3
http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?id=323
http://www.islaam.com/Section.asp?id=4
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_1.html

Jazzaku Allaah khair.

Wa Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

43

[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
THIS IS IT!! in order to save your hadith you even go so far that you accept which has been said on this issue in the TORAH!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

filhaal dear, hmm I was under the impression that you people do read earlier posts but apparently it must have been missed out by those who THINK, they have brains better than the Creator and his chosen prophets.

Do any of you need me to post them again? Or can you scroll back and read, why Qur’an and all revealed revelations are structured in the manner they are. The torah does not provide the laws here what it does is confirm the laws as approved by Allah (swt) . As for Muslims who have followed the Prophet of Islam and his teachings, they have more than sufficient evidence form the authentic hadiths to ensure what was approved by Allah (swt) including the evidence from the torah stated in the hadiths

[quote]
hadith is a doubtful matter, but what i am surprised about is that you even go sofar to save your skin to present the TORAH as a proof which concerning authencity is even more doubtful than your hadith!!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hadiths meaning Authentic hadiths may be a doubtful matter to you but not to Muslims who have sound knowledge about Islam . Most likely, you are unaware of what had transpired in Islam so I guess you are entitled to your opinions but Islam is not based on anyone’s opinions.

[quote]
THe second thing what you are suggesting is that the Prophet Mohammad (saw) had his own agenda besides GOD's!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says in other words the prophet (pbuh) needed your assistance and approval for prescribing the laws, failing which he was in error right?

[quote]
When GOD issued through the wahi the ayat on the punishment for adultery, what you are suggesting is that the Prophet did not follow GOD's order, but instead chose his own punishment by stoning!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : why would that be the case when he knows for certain that what was revealed was concerning unwed couples only? Why is this the case? It should be obvious for those who have sound frame of mind but in case you don’t understand this, let me guide you.

You see when two unwed persons fornicate, there is always the chance that they can seek forgiveness and get married before their affair comes to light but in case it does than the punishment is ONLY flogging as revealed in the Qur’an. This is because they can still repent and get married if they chose to do so.

But in the case of married persons, they are to be killed because both of them have families and they should be no excuse for them to involve themselves in extra martial affairs.

** BTW, the whole purpose behind this kind of harsh punishments is to STOP OTHERS from taking this path . Meaning it is deterrent
[/quote]

and this cannot be easily done without FOUR eye witnesses thus they was always room for mercy but some will indeed get exposed and they have to be killed ( married couples) in order to prevent others from following suit.

[quote]
DO YOU BELIEVE that the QURAN is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT??????
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: apparently your problem is the failure to comprehend why a book fully detailed would need a prophet to teach and guide his followers ?

Second why would Allah (swt) need to convey to mankind that they should OBEY the Prophet of Islam in the Qur’an ? Meaning Obeying the Prophet is obeying Allah (swt) .

So work on it and some day you may come to understand , If Allah (swt) had so willed. But as for your desire to cancel what had been approved for prophets before you without any command given in any scripture for its abolition or what was CLEARLY approved and practiced by the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions, sorry, it may be alright for you but not alright for Muslims who have knowledge.

Also read this:-

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816]

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas, 'Umar said, ** "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. ** Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, ** if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." ** Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

[quote]
-if your answer is no, that would be blasphemous!!
[quote]

Ibrahim says: it would for you, but not for Muslims, sorry! because they know things that you are unaware of. .

[quote]
-answering yes would be undermining your own claim about the hadith!!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: No matter what the answer you wish to hear Islam will remain INTACT as practiced by the Prophet (pbuh) and Muslims will not be committing a sin when they INFLICT the prescribed punishments for adultery be it lashing for unmarried couple or stoning for married couples or both according to the appointed judge.

The problem being, you simply lack the knowledge and wisdom behind the punishment being meted out in this manner.

When you have attained sufficient proficiency to comprehend them, don’t feel shy to ask or find out from the sharia courts.

At the same time Islam is not based on the whims and fancies of anyone. Thus let me establish the truth once again.

Now let me see** IF you or anyone who wishes to challenge the authenticity of stoning as an approved form of punishment in Islam can come up with the following**

1) Produce a verse in “ANY” scripture for the abolition of stoning for adultery?

2) Produce a hadith or tradition from an authentic source for the abrogation of stoning in Islam .

** If by any chance or for any reason you cannot produce it, be sure that you have been talking and spreading evil and questioning your Creator and his ways without any evidence except your own desire and misconception about revealed matters.**

Now IF you need a reward for producing a verse in any "revealed" scripture or hadiths for the abolition or abrogation of stoning as punishment for adultery , I am not rich but I am sure we can arrange something for your efforts.

go for it!

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** the air the we breath now has passed through many sets of lungs before reaching us **

44

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

what? Maybe you failed to understand what has been conveyed so far. The Prophet of Islam was endowed with wisdom and guided ( you and I and anyone on this planet at this current time frame are not fit to carry his sandals even, but the ignorant and arrogant may doubt his teachings for sure) , even when he tries to do something like forbidding honey for himself ( which is a minor issue) Allah (swt) corrects it by way of revelation. Hence IF the Prophet had made a mistake by approving stoning when it had been forbidden ( which would be a major issue , since it involves taking the life of a person because of the hadd approved for that crime) . We would be able to read about it in the Qur’an.

So kindly produce it, IF you feel you know better than Allah (swt) or His chosen Prophet.

Ibrahim says: O lord! Rebels will always remain as rebels immaterial of what is shown or produced.

Anyway for the sake of the pious

Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 41.1

Malik related to me from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said,** "The Jews came ** to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and mentioned to him that a man and woman from among them had committed adultery. ** The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked them, ‘What do you find in the Torah about stoning?’ They said, ‘We make their wrong action known and flog them.’** Abdullah ibn Salam said, ** ‘You have lied!** It has stoning for it, ** so bring the Torah.’ They spread it out and one of them placed his hand over the ayat of stoning. Then he read what was before it and what was after it.** Abdullah ibn Salam told him to lift his hand. ** He lifted his hand and there was the ayat of stoning. They said, ‘He has spoken the truth, Muhammad. The ayat of stoning is in it.’ So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and they were stoned . "**

Abdullah ibn Umar added, “I saw the man leaning over the woman to protect her from the stones.”

Malik commented, “By leaning he meant throwing himself over her so that the stones fell on him.”

Same as [Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 6.79 Narrated by Abdullah bin Umar]

Ibrahim says : hence it was established as a FACT (even at that time frame) that the Torah contained stoning by the Prophet (pbuh) himself (in the presence of the Jews,) who also gave the order for stoning. Had there been any abrogation of this punishment, the Prophet would have refrained from ordering the punishments.

Not only that a revelation would be found in the Qur’an had the Prophet (pbuh) given the wrong order since he was guided and would NEVER be able to make errors in such matters.
BTW this did not apply to Jews only….

[Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 805]

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari, ‘A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Apostle and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witness four times against himself. ** Allah’s Apostle ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married Person.’ **

Adullah Yusuf Ali in his translation elaborates: ‘Zina includes sexual intercourse between a man and a woman not married to each other. It therefore applies both to adultery [which implies that one or both of the parties are married to a person or persons other than the ones concerned] and to fornication, which, in its strict sense signification, implies that both parties are unmarried.’ The editors further add, '** Although Zina covers both adultery and fornication, in the opinion of Muslim jurists, the punishment laid down here applies only to un-married persons. As for married persons, their punishment, according to the Sunnah of the Prophet [s] is stoning to death. **

Ibrahim says : Nescio! spinning round and round is not going to change what is CLEAR and what has been practiced from the beginning.

BTW the Bible is called as such because it combine the OT ( Torah and prophetic book) and the NT ( Gospels and Epistles) and in it is found stoning for adultery , even the fabricated part I mentioned earlier is with regards to stoning for adultery , where Christ supposedly refused to stone the adulteress, although Christians belief it was due to change in laws, they have failed to understand that according to Jewish laws it is the eye witnesses who prosecuted the adulterers ** who MUST throw the first stones, ** not any others.

Ibrahim says: but Islam is not based on what is now, it is based on what was prescribed 1423 years ago and the hadiths are also not about now but were transmitted 1423 year ago, so do something, THINK! Failing which do as you like but slandering the Prophet (pbuh) or back biting him and his companions will surely place you outside the folds of Islam.

BTW when you cast doubts on the Prophet (pbuh) you are also casting doubts on Allah (swt) because

4:80 ** He who obeys the Apostle obeys Allah: ** but if any turn away We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

81 They have “Obedience” on their lips; but when they leave thee ** a section of them meditate all night on things very different from what thou tellest them but Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them and put thy trust in Allah; and enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs **

Ibrahim says : what a pitiful sight it would be for those who cast doubts based on their whims and fancies without understand what had been approved for which kind of adulterers !

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** A moments insight is sometimes worth a life’s experience . **

45

Ibrahim,

There are some very adherent flaws in your theory! For the first, let me quote you the verse:

4: 25:

"*If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, **their punishment is half that for free women. **This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. *"

So slaves are to be given half the punishment according to the above mentioned verse.

If your argument about stoning to death for adulterer is taken to be valid then how would you half this punishment?

Can you stone a person half to death?

I will point out some more later ...

46

ahmdajee that’s not the only thing wrong about Mr. Ibrahim’s hollow claims..

He is trying to prove himself right by constantly jumping back and forth between the Torah and Hadith literature, conveniently shoving the Qur’an aside.

Here Mr. Ibrahim, are some verses for you to get it into your Bible/Torah/Hadith influenced thinking on how high the Qur’an ranks.

[al-Baqarah 2:105] Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

PakistaniAbroad: Establishes the context. What was being sent down from Allah were the divine revelations in the form of the Qur’an.

[al-Baqarah 2:106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

PakistaniAbroad: Herein Allah gives his verdict to the people of the Book.. that whatever they had with them, has been abrogated by whatever is in the Qur’an, which is better than it.

Sadly, misguided and hadith worshipper Sunni ‘scholars’ have used this verse incorrectly to claim Qur’an itself contains abrogated verses .. naoozobillah

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

Also Read:

[al-Ma’idah 5:48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

PakistaniAbroad: Very important to note are the words “Guardian over it”. It tells us that whenever we are in conflict between our scripture and the ones that have already come to pass, we turn to Qur’an to get the guidance as it has the TRUTH.

We may or may not be certain if stoning was indeed revealed but studying the Qur’an we do get the punishment to be given to an adulterer or an adultress. We are to follow the law and the way revealed for us.

It’s so clear cut that it leaves no room. If the Qur’an states something, all corollaries are covered. If the Qur’an states a punishment for a crime, you cannot argue that since it didn’t specifically DISALLOW other punishments they can be carried !!! How arrogant is that??? Overriding what Allah has given in the Qur’an to uphold unverified, forgotten and doubtful scriptures and stories??

How low will Hadith thumpers now stoop to in order to prove their gods right??

47

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**Changez_like

what is the punishemnt in pakistan
for adultery if the survive their family memebers?**
[/quote]

I'm not really concerned with what country has what punishment for certain crimes. I do not consider Pakistan has established Islamic rulings at all. Pakistan is a mixed up, messed up state, may Allah SWT help us in straightening it up.

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

48

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: there is a hadith which reveals that Jews tried to trick the prophet about this matter when they brought a jew accused of adultery for judgment by him and it was established than that their books did convey stoning and their deception failed and the accused was stoned as revealed in the torah and as approved by the final prophet (pbuh) but mind you, Allah (swt) does not trick or misguide, hence the Prophet (pbuh) will be led aright immaterial of what is hidden from him by the deceitful people.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** understanding is forever unattainable but is the only quest worth serious attention ****
[/quote]

Brother Ibrahim, thank you so far in your efforts. I understand that laws were revealed as needed, but once a law HAS BEEN revealed, then why keep following previous law?

Whether or not stoning really was a Torah law, we are supposed to follow Quran, laws have changed for different nations/scenarios.

Pointing to ahadith for approving something different from Quran does not prove something. And also you said that Muslims with "sound" knowledge have understood this as a law for centuries does not make basis of approving a law different from Quran.

For example, very "knowledgeable" John or other people introduced in Bible that Jesus was son of God does not mean that he is right whatsoever his level of knowledge was. Please don't go into details about other scriptures since I do not have much knowledge of those and at this time I do not wish to acqurie any.

We can for sure reject this type of corruption/deviation, but how would you distinguish deviations/corruption of a lesser value? Compare it with Quran, right?.

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

49

Ibrahim you write:

Ibrahim says: rvikz, the punishment is to prevent you from getting AIDs and destroying mankind and only because of religion Muslims have been guarded against such evils.

  1. Why do you always write in third person? - just curious.

  2. Are you saying that when one commits adultery one is likely to get AIDS and spread AIDS?

I dont think AIDS or any other STD is the reason why stoning was perscribed for the judaics. I think it was more so to scare pple away from committing adultery, but like alcohol, it was a privelege that became abused. So it seems more logical that God changed the punishment in the Quran to flogging, since flogging is temporary and not deadly. In this way, there is time for pleading forgiveness to God.

You can’t say sorry to God after you’re dead. Even if you can, its better to say it in this life time just to stay safe.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

By the way, AIDS is spreading more due to uneducation, and less due to adultery. It also can be attributed to multiple sex partners, gay/lesbianism, etc. Adultery is not the only way AIDS is spread. Additionally, AIDS didn’t exist in the time of the Prophet - its relatively new.

50

I know this is a bit off topic - but an excellent question was raised – are u committing adultery with your slave - when the Quran allows for “relations” with one’s slaves.

I agree with Ibrahim (for once)

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ibrahim says: thus the condition is marriage not just having sex with those who are captives as you have misconceived.

He is right - unfortunately , MANY MANY MEN have forced their servants into having relations with them - basically rape - and they excuse their actions using the "right hand possesses " phrase.

This is a severe misconception - i feel sorry for all those lady servants who have been raped and are being raped on account of this ayah and its wrong interpretation.

One is NOT allowed to have sex with a slave or a servant w/o marriage.

51

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**Ibrahim,

There are some very adherent flaws in your theory! For the first, let me quote you the verse:

4: 25:

"*If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, **their punishment is half that for free women. **This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. *"

So slaves are to be given half the punishment according to the above mentioned verse.

If your argument about stoning to death for adulterer is taken to be valid then how would you half this punishment?

Can you stone a person half to death?

I will point out some more later ... **
[/quote]

As Salaam u alaikum,
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

004.024 *Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. *

004.025 *If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. *

In verses 24-25, the word "muhsanat" has been used in two different senses: 1 "Wedded women" enjoying the protection of their husbands; and 2 "Free Muslim women" enjoying the protection of their families even if they be un-married. In verse 24, "muhsanat" has been used for "un-married free Muslim women" as against the slave-girls, as is clear from the context. On the contrary in verse 25 "muhsanat" has been used for the slave-girls in the first sense and it has been clearly stated that when they are married and enjoy the protection of their husband.

My question is to all those who have read the Quran cover to cover! Since all of you claim to have the ability to understand the Holy Quran so well that the teachings and practice of the Prophet SAW are meaningless to you.

Q. I need to know ** what is the exact meaning of the word "muhsinat"?**

52

Originally posted by hafeez123:

quote:

And, the book of hadiths(sahih)on the matter of Rajm are all - conjectures!

Finally, the madzhab based on these hadiths are also CONJECTURES!

RESPONDED by Pakistani Abroad:

"Absolutely! They are just historical records compiled from heresay and should be taken as no more than just a one sided narrative which cannot be verified from independent sources."

Dear PA,
You have called the ahl as sunnah wal jammat a creed based on falsehoods!

I would rather call it a creed whose interpretations have lost its meanings in the present time and for all eternity!

53

Prove/retract that it was changed in 600AD or for always remain known as a fabricator of facts

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Don’t try and run away, dear Ibrahim.

As always I will try and keep you honest…

Stoning anyone is not a Christian practice.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited July 11, 2002).]

54

**

Dear hafeez,

That’s incorrect. I didn’t call the ahl as sunnah wal jamaat a creed based on falsehoods. I called ALL sects based on unverified accounts as creeds based on falsehoods.

I hope I’ve made myself clear

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

55

[quote]
I understand that laws were revealed as needed, but once a law HAS BEEN revealed, then why keep following previous law?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Dear changez
I believe you have not clearly understood what is meant by laws revealed as needed. In other words, when the Prophets are faced with varying situations where it becomes difficult for them to apply the same punishments, they like all human beings will seek for leniency. This is similar to our Prophet (pbuh) seeking for reductions in the number of prayers to be done in Islam as recorded in the hadiths as well as other scriptures where prophets seek protection and reduction of punishments for those that had erred.

Thus in such events Allah (swt) reveals or provides the answer by way of an ayah, hence the ayah appearing only concerning people who committing zina ( translated as fornication and adultery in English) when they (both) are singles .

Why is this the case ?

Because since they are singles, they are under a lot of pressure form shaitan, to test out their sexual desires and some are clearly overcome by this temptations, even though they may be good in character.

The chances are these people can eventually marry as clearly seen, once their shame gets to them . as such If they get caught their punishment to be meted out to them is only lashing and what else the prophet (pbuh) or Qadi ( judge) enjoined for them.
But those that are convicted and admonished publicly have only one option that being to marry each other and repent for their misadventure.

Whereas when two people who are married have illicit sex, they instantly have broken the vows they had made in public to their respective spouses. This will demoralize their partners faith and ruin that family values in them and will mislead the entire family and society , if allowed to prevail ( You only need to look at western society to prove the immorality that has caused amongst them)

Thus it becomes imperative to kill the source of this evil, thus form ancient times , Allah (swt) death for those who commit adultery.

The main purpose behind stoning is to make it look totally harsh and painful, such that, would be offenders will refrain from falling into such temptations.

[quote]
Whether or not stoning really was a Torah law, we are supposed to follow Quran, laws have changed for different nations/scenarios.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what you are saying is that you know better than the appointed prophet (pbuh) and as to what was revealed for what reason. If you believe the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions had erred or the hadiths are false, I suggest you study the scriptures that Allah (swt) from ancient times to understand the laws as given by Allah (swt) are consistent all the time.

[quote]
Pointing to ahadith for approving something different from Quran does not prove something.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: changez, I don’t need to prove anything to you or anyone else. I only need to establish the facts for those who have sound minds to comprehend the TRUTH, IF Allah (swt) so willed. Which is and should be evidently CLEAR from what I had already conveyed in this thread.

The fact is immaterial of what the punishment, punishment has been ordained for fornication and adultery and Muslims have carried it out from the beginning and their records speaks for itself.

[quote]
And also you said that Muslims with "sound" knowledge have understood this as a law for centuries does not make basis of approving a law different from Quran.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is YOUR opinion based on misconception as to what is being revealed, not How the Prophets had understood or practiced from ancient times.

BTW Islam is not based on anyone’s whims and fancies , IT IS BASED ON THE QUR’AN AND SUNNAH OF THE PROHET (pbuh) .

[quote]
For example, very "knowledgeable" John or other people introduced in Bible that Jesus was son of God does not mean that he is right whatsoever his level of knowledge was.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Don’t you see whatever major wrong done by the ancients had corrections in the Qur’an? Haven’t you read, “do not kill your children” in the Qur’an, which corrected the pagans who killed their females and kept alive their males?

hence If Allah forbids stoning as the form of punishment which HE had approved in the past, you would have found the verse for its forbiddance in the Qur’an, it is as simple as that!

[quote]
We can for sure reject this type of corruption/deviation, but how would you distinguish deviations/corruption of a lesser value? Compare it with Quran, right?.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Deviation happens only when the scripture and their related hadiths, tafsirs are altered beyond redemption. ( which BTW is what you seem to be working towards) Since that is not the case in Islam, I am amazed as to why you ended up thinking in this way!

** I already made it CLEAR, I repeat again zina has many forms

1) when both person are unwed ( here lashing applies)

2) when both person have already been married ( here death applies)
[/quote]

If anyone disagrees, I suggest they produce a verse from the Qur’an for its forbiddance and not what their minds conjure.

Allah (swt) knows best

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** politicians try to chose sides on a round table – how silly! **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 11, 2002).]

56

ibrahim how adultery was dealt in anceint
india . i heard they were very liberal
you have to pay only fine or is much more cruel?

57

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Old man, I already proved that, but I guess, you have problems with your own people and lack knowledge as to how such things were determined.

Now let me help you understand this, apparently no one is helping you understand such matters or you have chosen to deceive us. You see the NT is not put together by one original manuscript but by bits and pieces of passages originating from various manuscripts hence when the NIV Bible ( New International version) claims

** [The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.]**

Ibrahim says: you don’t suppose 100 scholars from different denominations are lying do you?

So, What do they mean here?

They mean that this passage comes from a manuscript that can be dated around 600 AD.

And this was CLEARLY published in the AWAKE magazine as early as 1957, which YOU read and ran away without any response in the earlier thread at http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004366.html , now try and recollect your failures and try to be more honest, we will die sooner or later and there is NO escape for anyone who is erring when it is CLEARLY shown and established that they are in error.

Hope that is helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** too many are waiting for their ships to come in but they are waiting at the bus depot ! **

58

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
ibrahim how adultery was dealt in anceint
india . i heard they were very liberal
you have to pay only fine or is much more cruel?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says you don't want to know this, I assure you, If I quote the hindu scriptures, I will have the hindus screaming mad at me and I will have hypocrites and deviants taking pot shots at me.

Are you sure you want to know this ?

59

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says you don't want to know this, I assure you, If I quote the hindu scriptures, I will have the hindus screaming mad at me and I will have hypocrites and deviants taking pot shots at me.

Are you sure you want to know this ?

**
[/quote]

ibrahim i dont mind

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited July 11, 2002).]

60

Ibrahim,

Am I on the ignore list? I was hoping you will address the question I asked about halfing the punishment of stoning death!