Stoning to death is not Islamic

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
Why is this so?

You just want people to praise and follow quietly like sheeps to slaughter!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear hafeez123,

Apparently you don’t understand what I am saying, you see Gandalf is a shia who claims he is sunni ( long story)

And similarly there are lots of wolves in sheep’s clothing’s, meaning non Muslims parading as Muslims and even women acting as men in this forum

All this is easy due to the medium, hence my comment as they are all bent on trying to deceive others. Not because they are questioning Islam but because they are trying to defame Islam in deceitful ways.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

22

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear old man, what happened to you? I mean is there no other word in your vocabulary except nonsense and every time I put forward prove, you still depart with the same words and run away only to surface with the same insinuations.

O lord! hasn’t age given you a better sense of thought, yet!

Anyway get a hold of you NIV and look up that passage and see what the foot notes says:

Let me help you: ** [The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.]**
Now to know when exactly this was added into the bible we need to ask the Christians as they reported it , in their AWAKE magazines in 1957

I posted it on this forum some time back and YOU alredy read it! let me see if I can recall that url for you.

here it is…

23

Ibrahim,

[quote]
Ibrahim says : No that verse is not abrogated but is a lenient form of the punishment for adultery as approved by Allah (swt) from the existing version ( stoning to death) as practiced by the Prophets form ancient times.

[/quote]

Your argument will be valid if:

1. Allah had mentioned in the verse to use it as a linient punishment; and
2. Allah had mentioned that the previous law regarding this has not been abrogated.

Can you show proof of either of the two from Allah's revealed word, Quran?

24

ibrahim why you need religen and harsh punishemnt to be faithful partner?
is it that hard to resist adultery
you need such a harsh punishment?

25

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Your argument will be valid if:

1. Allah had mentioned in the verse to use it as a linient punishment; and
2. Allah had mentioned that the previous law regarding this has not been abrogated.

Can you show proof of either of the two from Allah's revealed word, Quran?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee Islam is not based on arguments according to yours or mine, it is based on revelations, not just one revelation but all that had been given from the time of prophet Ibrahim (as) and all that had been conveyed to the assigned prohet of that time frame

** If you think stoning was forbidden, you are claiming you know better than the Prophets and also Allah (swt) in addition to the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) , who carried forward what they learned directly from the Prophet of Islam. **

I already given you verses from the Qur’an as to what Muslims are to say and what Muslims are to believe in, but that is for Muslims practicing Islam not for Ahmadis practicing ahmaedism, or anyone else according to their whims and fancies. so I have to excuse you.

Hope that makes it CLEAR as to why Prophets practiced what they did. The Qur'an is not revealed to you or me for it to have what you desire in it.

BTW have you circumcised? I you had , why?? when it is not written in the Qur’an?

For those lacking in knowledge kindly ponder over…………

Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 41.2

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that a man from the Aslam tribe came to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and said to him, "I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr said to him, "Have you mentioned this to anyone else?" He said, "No." Abu Bakr said to him, ** "Then cover it up with the veil of Allah. Allah accepts tawba from his slaves." ** His self was still unsettled, so he went to Umar ibn al-Khattab. He told him the same as he had said to Abu Bakr, and Umar told him the same as Abu Bakr had said to him. His self was still not settled so he went to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to him, ** "I have committed adultery," insistently.** The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, turned away from him three times. Each time the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ** turned away from him until it became too much.** The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, questioned his family, "Does he have an illness which affects his mind, or is he mad?" They said, "Messenger of Allah, by Allah, he is well." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ** "Unmarried or married?"** They said, "Married, Messenger of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,** gave the order and he was stoned.**

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4191 Narrated by Ubadah ibn as-Samit

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female,** they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.**

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 10, 2002).]

26

Ibrahim, oh Wise One;

Thank you once again for a patronizing and condescending reply. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but your posts do not hurt me. They do not even entertain me. I find them self righteous and sanctimonious.

But your'e right in that only the truth matters. That's why I frequent places like this, to listen to all views. I digest everything I read and hear to try to discern the truth. I don't pretend to know the absolute truth, no one but God knows that. I pray and try to follow the path I think He wants me to.

But you are under some delusion that every letter you type is the truth as if you have had some divine revelation from God that us poor uneducated dimwits cannot understand.

As with Christian fundalmentalists, I find that people like you who need to have a scriture, hadith, or verse to explain every minute detail of life- from how to use the bathroom to what position to sleep, to what time to wake up in the morning- do so because they are not intelligent enough to make those decisions by themselves. It makes it much easier to find it already thought out and written down than than to have to think for yourself.

Have you ever heard of Jack Van Impe? He is a Christian fundalmentalist that can quote the Bible front, back, sideways and upside down. Does that make him right? I think we would both say NO. Likewise when someone can quote, copy, paste and recite the Quran- I'm not impressed.

It is beyond my scrupples generally to tell people that their religous beliefs are based on lies. I have never once been so forward to tell any Muslim that I believe Mohammed was a false prophet. But you have no such problems when demeaning Christians for their belief in Jesus Christ. You relish it with such glee that I find it offensive and arrogant.

That's why playing the victim's role that I "smeared" you comes across as hollow and hypocritical. All that I pointed out is that you spend many hours posting your allegations of wrong doings, evilness and lies of Christianity. I was posting the TRUTH about your posts. A 'smear' is what you do in every one of your posts to those who do not agree with your enlightened points of view.

I don't expect you to be politically correct, but 'nice' should go without saying, especially for one who claims to be so pious. Of course one should enjoy sharing his knowledge and joy for his religion. It just baffles me that those same people would enjoy belittling and being rude to others.

I'm sorry that I have been rude in this post. I don't like to tell people that I believe they are wrong (even when I am convinced as I am about your views). But you obviously don't have that same respect for others with differing opinions, so I just went with the flow.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. Galileo Galilei

[This message has been edited by Seminole (edited July 10, 2002).]

27

Ibrahim;

As much as you may want to post unnecessary material on this thread about nothing, the fact of the matter is that stoning is NOT prescribed as a punishment in the qur'an.

The holy prophet (pbuh) did not do ANYTHING against the verdicts of the qur'an. As such, any hadiths that show otherwise should be rejected.

If one examines the hadith recorded by the compilers of hadith which purport to prescribe stoning there is no instance when the Holy Prophet ordered stoning of a Muslim who was caught committing adultery or against whom a charge had been levelled.

The instances that have been recorded by the hadith compilers are of Maaz bin Malik and of the woman from the tribe of Azd Gaib. The two are separate instances but the stories are similar.

It is reported that they voluntarily appeared before the Holy Prophet and without being confronted with a charge, accusation or being coerced confessed their own guilt. Then too the holy Prophet is reported to have been extremely reluctant to hear them.

Also, these hadiths (incidents) have also not been fixed in time. It is possible that these incidents took place before the verses ordaining the punishment of whipping for adultery were revealed (the revelation of the Holy Quran having taken 23 years).

As it stands, stoning is not mentioned in the qur'an, and as such is not an Islamic, but a Judeo-Christian form of punishment.

So drop yr holier than thou attitude and either prove from the qur'an that stoning is prescribed from the qur'an or submit that it isn't.

You can use a million hadiths but if it is against the qur'an, they are meaningless.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited July 10, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited July 10, 2002).]

28

[quote]
Seminole: I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but your posts do not hurt me.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Seminole! Oh no, you cannot burst my bubble since I have no bubbles to burst. it was your imagination that I am making bubbles , when what I say is SOLID like hell.

[quote]
They do not even entertain me. I find them self righteous and sanctimonious.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : what you expected entrainment form my posts? And you keep saying impress you, tsk tsk, my posts are not made to entertain or impress you or others on this forum , see this is where you fail. I post info which are meant to correct errors , you think, you can digest what I am saying?

[quote]
But you are under some delusion that every letter you type is the truth as if you have had some divine revelation from God that us poor uneducated dimwits cannot understand.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : You know, If you spent one to ten percent of the time trying to refute what I said, I would have believed you, but since you are only capable of making accusations and allegations, I cannot help but wonder, what is wrong with you.

[quote]
As with Christian fundalmentalists, I find that people like you who need to have a scriture, hadith, or verse to explain every minute detail of life- from how to use the bathroom to what position to sleep, to what time to wake up in the morning- do so because they are not intelligent enough to make those decisions by themselves. It makes it much easier to find it already thought out and written down than than to have to think for yourself.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: my my, a quick jap , good show you are learning like the rest of the deviants, but it won’t help you come out of your closet.

[quote]
. Likewise when someone can quote, copy, paste and recite the Quran- I'm not impressed.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: see. only the naïve would think people are trying to impress them on forums where one does not know who they are talking to.

[quote]
It is beyond my scrupples generally to tell people that their religous beliefs are based on lies. I have never once been so forward to tell any Muslim ** that I believe Mohammed was a false prophet.** But you have no such problems when demeaning Christians for their belief in Jesus Christ. You relish it with such glee that I find it offensive and arrogant.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ah yes! the saint, who complains when people tells the truth and keeps quite when Christians defames others or oppresses others. Please, Like I said If you cannot handle the truth, go and hide but if you chose to find out, don’t complain, try and refute what I say based on facts not on your whims and fancies.

[quote]
That's why playing the victim's role that I "smeared" you comes across as hollow and hypocritical.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: If that is the case why not prove your point that you are not a hypocrite trying to smear me by refuting my statements.

1) tell s where I have tried to impress you

2) tell us where I have defamed Christianity by telling the untruth ?

3) Or has my statements been untruth altogether or at anytime?

[quote]
All that I pointed out is that you spend many hours posting your allegations of wrong doings, evilness and lies of Christianity.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : so I must keep quite and hide the truth and let the oppressors oppress the people and by doing so I have impressed you?

[quote]
I was posting the TRUTH about your posts. A 'smear' is what you do in every one of your posts to those who do not agree with your enlightened points of view.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: when you lie, do you expect me to keep quite or refute the liar? and when I refute you , you think that is smear? O God you are truly pathetic.

On the other hand, I revealed a fact on this thread and you have the nerve to accuse me of , let me quote you

[quote]
This statement is quite** ironic ** coming from you, ** as it seems your purpose on this forum (other than to impress with your copying and pasting skills of scripture and insulting people) is to spread a vehement anti-Christian agenda.**
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Now care to tell us

1) how you knew my purpose?

2) how you knew I am trying to impress you?

3) How I had insulted you?

4) How you know I am copying an pasting scriptures only ?

[quote]
I don't expect you to be politically correct, but 'nice' should go without saying, especially for one who claims to be so pious.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says :Care to tell us

1) where I have claimed I am pious in any thread?

2) Why would I need to fulfill your expectations?

[quote]
Of course one should enjoy sharing his knowledge and joy for his religion. It just baffles me that those same people would enjoy belittling and being rude to others.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: care to tell us

1) how you know I enjoy belittling others?

2) Care to show us where I am rude ?

[quote]
I'm sorry that I have been rude in this post. I don't like to tell people that I believe they are wrong (even when I am convinced as I am about your views). But you obviously don't have that same respect for others with differing opinions, so I just went with the flow.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; obviously you are trying to cover your own follies by claiming I have no respect for others , when it is clear, your whole post is littered with your inability to accept the truth of my statements and trying even harder to smear me because of you inability to refute my claims. .

[quote]
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. Galileo Galilei
[/quote]

Ibrahim says At least Galileo Galilei used his brains and God did not give you brains to forgo it either, I wonder if you have used It? , because, here I made a statement that revealed the facts of some verses in the Bible, instead of trying to find out the truth behind them, you try to attack me with all this nonsense and how good you are and hwo bad I am follies.

Or at least go and find which part of the bible says what and what is true and what is false. I make the same kind of statements for all scriptures hence, your claims iof having an anti Christian agenda falls flat on its face because I talk of Hinduism, shi’ism, ahmadism and every other ism just like I talk about Christianity.

So far, by the Grace of God and Praise be to Him alone, I have not uttered any thing FALSE concerning them, which none of those followers had been able to refute or deny.

So Please get help

Regards
Ibrahim

** Get control of your life. If you don’t shaitan controls you **

29

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
ibrahim why you need religen and harsh punishemnt to be faithful partner?
is it that hard to resist adultery you need such a harsh punishment?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: rvikz, the punishment is to prevent you from getting AIDs and destroying mankind and only because of religion Muslims have been guarded against such evils.

** Harshness of it is more intended to be deterrent** and should have been so, had it not been for the rebellious transgressors ( Non Muslims) who are now propagating adultery through the media and also suffering from AIDS and other ills because of it.

Thus God is Great in preventing it from happening to those who TRUST and SUBMIT to him alone.

30

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Gandalf dear do you mind answering my question?

I repeat ** do you shia’s practice stoning or not?** or do shia practice stoning for adultery?

BTW scroll up and read my replies which already answers your response.

31

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: opps! Gandalf
don't forget to answer this too

1) but it does have a punishment mentioned therein and IT did have a Prophet who was assigned to guide their followers did it not?

2) Is all the guidance of the Prophet mentioned it the Qur’an or all the revelations recorded therein? No! so, what was not mentioned in the Qur’an can be verified from the Authentic teachings of the Prophet. right?

3) Have you circumcised yourself? Is in written in the Qur’an ? so why did you do it ?

32

Ibrahim;

Your level of ignorance has surfaced once again.

Circumcision is a recommended act but not compulsory in Islam. Five are the acts quite akin to fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the hair under the armpits and clipping (or shaving) the moustache (Recorded in "Sahih Muslim", "Sahih Bukhari", "Musnad Ahmed" and "Sunnah At-Tirmidhi"). The word fitra in relation to cleanliness can refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) with regard to this matter, and fitra also "implies an inner sense of cleanliness in man which is proof of his moral convictions and mental health" (2). Circumcision means removal of the foreskin of the penis.

Thus, the performance of circumcision and the practice of Sunan Al- Fitra as recommended in Islam is medically beneficial and reflects the wisdom of the Islamic statements.

Newly uncircumcised males who convert to Islam do not have to undergo circumcision to fulfil their desire to become muslim.

However, the stoning punishment that takes away ones life is a made up law of utmost seriousness.

To compare that to a recommended act of cleanliness is ignorance in the extreme.

33

As-Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

There was a question raised, how could Prophet Moosa be a muslim when “the religion of Islam was not around yet”.

Allaah(swt) sent His creation one fundamental message, Tawheed (Divine unity) - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.

According to Tawheed (Islamic monothesim, the message of all the Prophets), Christainity is classified as polytheism and Judaism is considered a subtle form of idolatry. Judaism and Christainity are NOT religions that Allaah(swt) sent to mankind but corrupted teachings of the true message of Tawheed (Islamic monothesim) taught by Prophet Moosa and Prophet Esa (peace upon them both) as well as all the Prophets of Allaah(swt).

Prophet Muhammad(saw) came with the same message (Tawheed - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah) as all Prophets of Allaah but with a sharia that abrogrates past laws.

Another point was raised when someone mentioned that a brother demeaned Christians for their belief in Prophet ‘Easa(PBUH). Don’t know if the brother did but we have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Christians directly set up partners with Allaah(swt) by directing calling Prophet ‘Easa Allaah or Son of Allaah and then directing acts of worship to him (amongst other things!). The commit the worst crime a human being can commit - shirk. This goes against the very message of Tawheed for which Prophet ‘Easa (PBUH) was sent. Make no mistake - Christians are disbelievers!

It goes without saying Tawheed - Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah - is the single most important topic in Islam. If anyone does not have a firm understanding in this topic, spend time and effort understanding it! To highlight the point, the opposite of tawheed is shirk –so the importance of understanding it goes without saying. It’s sad that so many books/articles work around this topic yet it is what we should be focusing on!

I’ve left some links at the bottom of the post - inshaa’allah it will help.

The following is an extract from islam-qa which inshaa’allah will in force the points mentioned above.

Praise be to Allaah.

Muslims believe in all the Prophets and Messengers without exception; whoever denies any Prophet is a disbeliever. Muslims believe in all the Books that were revealed by Allaah to His Prophets, without exception; whoever denies any Book is a disbeliever.

On this basis, Muslims believe in Moosa (Moses) as a Prophet from Allaah, and in the original Torah as a Book from Allaah, and in ‘Eesa (Jesus) as a Prophet from Allaah, and in the original Gospel as a Book from Allaah.

When the previous books were distorted and altered because of men’s desires and division among the Jews and Christians, it was no longer possible to rely on them.

Allaah abrogated all previous laws (sharee’ahs) when Islam came, and all previous Books when the Qur’aan was revealed. When He sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as the final Messenger and Seal of the Prophets, it became obligatory to believe in and follow the Qur’aan which was revealed to him, especially since Allaah has guaranteed to preserve the Qur’aan and protect it from alteration and distortion, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

Regarding Prophet Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) is the Khaleel (Friend) of Allaah, the Father of the Prophets and the pride of the Muslims. Allaah sent him with the message of Tawheed (Divine unity) just as He sent Moosa, ‘Eesa and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all). The happiest of mankind is one who follows his way, which is Tawheed (belief in Divine unity).

Because both the Jews and Christians claimed that Ibraaheem belonged to them, Allaah explained that they were both wrong, giving decisive historical evidence in the aayaat (interpretation of the meaning):
“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibraaheem, while the Tawraat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have no knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allaah Who knows, and you know not.

Ibraaheem was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim haneefa (Islamic monotheism – worshipping none but Allaah alone), and he was not of al-mushrikoon (polytheists).

Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibraaheem are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad (peace andb lessings of Allaah be upon him) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allaah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers.”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:65-68]

Belief in all the Prophets and Messengers is one of the pillars of Islamic belief (‘aqeedah), without which the faith of the Muslim cannot be complete, because they all preached the same message (i.e. they we ALL muslims), which is belief in Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muslims): ‘We believe in Allaah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa’eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya‘qoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbaat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qoob (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and ‘Isa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)’” [al-Baqarah 2:136]

Here are those links:

Please find time to get and read the following book. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/abutaw/abutaw_1.html

Other very important information on tauheed/aqeedah can be found in the links below. It explains the the kalimah (word) of tauheed, 'La ilaha ill-Allah" according to how the Prophet(saw) taught it and how it was understood by his companions.
http://www.islaam.net/display/display.php?category=3
http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?id=323
http://www.islaam.com/Section.asp?id=4
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_1.html

Wa Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

34

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: rvikz, the punishment is to prevent you from getting AIDs and destroying mankind and only because of religion Muslims have been guarded against such evils.

** Harshness of it is more intended to be deterrent** and should have been so, had it not been for the rebellious transgressors ( Non Muslims) who are now propagating adultery through the media and also suffering from AIDS and other ills because of it.

Thus God is Great in preventing it from happening to those who TRUST and SUBMIT to him alone.

**
[/quote]

ibrahim islam allows men to have sex with
captured slaves wont you get aids from that acts?

read the following about what "right hand possess" so adultery dont appply between
muslim men and non-muslim women even if they are married?

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allâh ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allâh is Ever All­Knowing, All­Wise.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited July 11, 2002).]

35

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
Your level of ignorance has surfaced once again.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Gandalf dear, , why are you making a mockery of yourself, I asked you simple questions, instead of answering them, you start showing your shia mentality again.

My question was

1) I repeat , do you shia’s practice stoning or not? or do shia practice stoning for adultery ever?

2) Have you circumcised yourself? ** Is it written in the Qur’an ?** so why did you do it ?

Ibrahim says: Instead of answering it, you start beating around the bush as to how I compared it with stoning! Do you lack English knowledge too, or is there no way to make you understand what the question is all about?

I only wanted to know is circumcision mentioned in the Qur’an and whether YOU had been circumcised or not? I did not make any comparison with stoning, but you ended up making a mockery of yourself by doing it.

[quote]
However, the stoning punishment that takes away ones life is a made up law of utmost seriousness.To compare that to a recommended act of cleanliness is ignorance in the extreme.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: see how silly your statements make you look? Now do us a favor and tell us do shia stone adulterers or not? , since by your albeit naïve statements you acknowledge circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur’an but Muslims do it anyway.

** The reason being it was a covenant made with prophet Ibrahim (as) and Allah (swt) as mentioned in the Torah for Muslims , just like stoning is clearly mentioned in the torah. See the link and what I am getting at? , I know you are blind of such things but sooner or later you need to learn.

Now did you read my earlier reply on stoning, or is that beyond you and you want to insist that stoning is unIslamic?

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** you cannot break the laws of Allah (swt) you can only break yourself against them **

36

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
ibrahim islam allows men to have sex with captured slaves wont you get aids from that acts?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says rivkz , I need to excuse you for thinking in this manner, since you are hindu and in Hinduism such things are allowed but not in Islam because you need to marry them. The verse you are quoting clearly says that too, only because bigots have been trying to slander Islam with these kind of meanings you may also have ended up thinking as such.

Now read again the part you snipped while omitting the continuation of that passage.

4:19 ** O ye who believe! ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. ** If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

24 Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you: ** except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. ** Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

25 ** If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith.** Ye are one from another: wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable: they should be chaste not lustful nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint: and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.

Ibrahim says: thus the condition is marriage not just having sex with those who are captives as you have misconceived.

Hope that CLEARS your misconception
Regards
Ibrahim

** If clouds remains in your mind water will falls from your eyes **

37

Dear all,

Dear all, dear hadithis

THIS IS IT!!
in order to save your hadith you even go so far that you accept which has been said on this issue in the TORAH!!
hadith is a doubtful matter, but what i am surprised about is that you even go sofar to save your skin to present the TORAH as a proof which concerning authencity is even more doubtful than your hadith!!!

I have to praise your logical thinking capabilities!!

i would think that it would be natural if you want to present any proof in this case the QURAN would be the ultimate proof!!

THe QURAN does not say any thing on stoning to death. However, the QURAN gives the ruling on adultery which are stripes!!

THe second thing what you are suggesting is that the Prophet Mohammad (saw) had his own agenda besides GOD’s!!

When GOD issued through the wahi the ayat on the punishment for adultery, what you are suggesting is that the Prophet did not follow GOD’s order, but instead chose his own punishment by stoning!!

A question for all hadithis

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

i have posted this already in another post too)
DO YOU BELIEVE that the QURAN is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT???
-if your answer is no, that would be blasphemous!!
-answering yes would be undermining your own claim about the hadith!!!

SO the choice is up to you!!!

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Great choice of words!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

Hadithis!! very suitable! hahaha

but on a serious note: you’re absolutely right!
first they claim that the Torah and Bible have been corrupted (that’s the reason why the Quran was sent down) and then when the stoning issue starts, they say that now the Torah is telling the truth!!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

I admit, there may be parts in the Torah which are still authentic, but who says that the stoning part is still authentic???
and how come that only the (corrupted) Torah talks about stoning, whereas the Quran doesn’t and as far as I know the Bible doesn’t either???

I mean, the Torah has become even more corrupted now then the Hadith!!!

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I asked earlier how can moses be muslim when Islam wasn't even around for a couple more hundred of years.I got an answer from Changez that said he(moses) believed in one god thats why he is muslim.That makes no sense to me when the word Islam or muslim wasn't even around then and the fact that he was hebrew and lead the jews how can he be muslim it makes no sense, so are the jews really muslims then thats what your implying.Why would God say hundreds of years later in your holy book the Quran that the people of the book the Christians and the Jews will be allowed in heaven to and tell you to respect their book and believe in their prophets to(which is what part of your religion is based on) and then you say its all fake and lies and changed, but yet God says it to you in the Quran its not, so to claim everything in the bible and torah is fake wrong changed or whatever is to say the Quran is false to because it inter-twines with the bible.

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As-Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu

Just2much and all others. Please read my post above (posted July 11, 2002 01:47 AM)

Jazzaku Allaah khair.

Wa Salaam 'alaykum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu