I am talking about stereotyping by your media and leaders. Everytime there is a terrorist act muslims are blamed, not the guy who did it but the whole muslim world is on trial at once. When the Oklahoma bombing took place one of the UK newspaper next day published a picuter of a fireman holding a dead child with the caption underneath “In the name of Islam”. That is the stupidity and hypocrisy of the western media to which I am referring. If all muslims are being branded as terrorists everytime an incident takes place than you should not be surprised if your whole army is tarred with the same brush when an incident like this comes to light.
So two wrongs make a right eh?
No American HERE would dare blame every Muslim for the acts of their brothers. People are fallible. The real question is, what is done about it? I can absolutely guarantee that those who did this have ruined thier lives, and will suffer for their crimes.
We will not make them heros like.........
ehsan, part of the problem I see is that the terrrorists themself idenfity with, recruit on the basis of, find inspiration from and are supported by religious folks. It is they who have cheapen the image by claiming to be the army of prophet mohammad, or army of allah, martyrs of god or whatever. If the IRA renamed itself the army of St. Patrick..I would have no doubt that there would be furor in the catholic ranks and denounciation among the many people in the world along with the media portrayal of highlighting the religious aspect of their actions.
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*Originally posted by ehsan: *
Have you seen how quickly all the Americans are saying that this is a minority and not representative of their army which is professional in nature. Well they dont want us to stereotype their army, yet every time a guy who happens to be a muslim commits a crime it is Islamic terrorists, Islamic extremists ets. All muslims are balmed in one fell swoop. If they are going to dish it, they should be able to take it as well. Just look at matsui's posts above, normally if a muslim would have done what these guys did he would have been up in arms, as it is he is making fun of it. Therein lies the hypocrisy.
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sure ehsan
but since when did 2 wrongs make a right?
sure if someone is going to dish it, he should be able to take it
but someone who does not like it being dished, should not be dishing when he has a chance. That is also hypocrisy.
as upsetting as it is for me to see jackasses on TV etc stereotyping and extrapolating the actions of a few to the entire population, I would not succumb to doing the same. Using the event as an example to show people how anything could be used to stereotype is one thing, engaging in stereotyping is another.
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
sure ehsan
but since when did 2 wrongs make a right?
sure if someone is going to dish it, he should be able to take it
but someone who does not like it being dished, should not be dishing when he has a chance. That is also hypocrisy.
as upsetting as it is for me to see jackasses on TV etc stereotyping and extrapolating the actions of a few to the entire population, I would not succumb to doing the same. Using the event as an example to show people how anything could be used to stereotype is one thing, engaging in stereotyping is another.
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True to an extent, but when day in, day out every time you switch on your TV you are told that you are an Islamic terrorist, than pardon me but a reaction is bound to come. I think while striving to bring balance to any argument it is probably good to show the other side a mirror once in a while. One should stand up for their beliefs and say what they feel is right. I dont believe in the appeasement theory. This stereotyping has turned many reasonable and moderate muslims almost militants. What do you suggest we keep turning the other cheek all the time. No sorry, but it is necessary to show the other side their shortcomings as well.
I think you are over reacting to the media claiming all Muslims as terrorists. I don't think the media, government or public says or believes that. But how are these terrorists supposed to be referred to when THEY make their interpretation of Islam their central motivation for terror? And please take some pressure off yourself to feel the need to show the other side their shortcomings. It is done at great length on a daily basis in every Muslim media outlet I see, including gupshup.
Ehsan.
First of all, your anger is completely understandable. But I think you are misinterpretting something. . . you say that when you hear the words "Muslim extremists" that you feel as though the whole Muslim world is being blamed???
I don't hear it that way - when I hear those words I think "a few nuts who misuse religion for killing" I know my American friends also have never thought about 9-11 or the other bombings as just a part of Islam. We understand that there are bad people in every religion, every race, every country.
I want to suggest one more thing - the peons in the Army are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. I mean at least when I graduated high school, those who went on to join the military either were forced to (parents couldn't do anything with their horrible behavior) OR they simply were not bright enough to go on to the university.
Of course, not every soldier is like that, and I am not referring to the officers in the Army, but those without much other choice in life here. Just think about the worst acting or dumbest kid in your high school - would you want him to guard you with no one looking????
ehsan:
I frankly don't know how much more either President Bush, our other politicians (Democrat or Republican), our media and/or our average Joe's can say or do to dissuade you from thinking that we view all Muslims as terrorists.
You are just not watching the same TV I am nor are you listening to the same people I am. Do you forget that Muslim clerics were invited to and did participate in the memorial services for the 9/11 victims? GWB has repeatedly stated that we are not at war with Islam and stated his opinion that Islam is a religion of peace. So too have other politicians and leaders of many churches. Sure, we've got a few nut jobs who say different (Robertson, Falwell, Graham). We've also had nutjob religious leaders who have called Judaism a "gutter religion."
The Americans posting in Gupshup have repeatedly voiced the opinion that they do not believe all Muslims are terrorists. If we have one common complaint about "mainstream Islam", my perception is that it is that we do not believe mainstream Muslims do enough and say enough to distance themselves from Islam's lunatics and we are a little fearful/concerned that the lunatic fringe is a little too big and growing more mainstream. You may not agree that our criticism is fair. Whether you agree with it or not, provided you are willing to discuss our disagreement on the issue courteously and peaceably, you're not that much different than me, you're not a terrorist and you're welcome in my house for sweet potatoes any time.
What I see happening is a whole bunch of non-Americans, America-haters, lunatic fringe members and their sypathizers trying to persuade you that we hate you, think of you as a terrorist, and are at war with you and all other Muslims. That's their agenda, NOT ours. If you hold the viewpoint you are expressing in this thread, I suggest that you are forming that opinion based upon what you hear from them rather than on what you would hear from us if you were listening.
myvoice:
I think that would sum it up for a vast majority of Americans and let's face it, you're not exactly left of center. The lunatic fringe in the US that believes otherwise is less than 10%, maybe 5%. It may be growing because of the 40% or so who have to back Bush right or wrong. Some are having to come up with arguments that may not make sense and they have to put blinders on to the truth. That's not healthy. But you still don't hear any significant number decrying Islam or Muslims.
But what scares many Americans is that the comparable element in the Muslim world is much larger. And growing. As you pointed out, many would disagree with that and it would be a legitimate point to discuss.
The slimeballs who did this prisoner humiliation for their entertainment need to be punished and so does the chain of command that allowed it to happen. This is a good time for Bush and his neo con cronies to step up to the plate and do something right with a bad situation.
Ehsan
if you read the responses its mostly from amerikkans and some muslims who are infatuated with amerikkan lifestyle.
You are not blind and you are not deaf. Allah(swt) gave you a brain and you can make judgement for yourself. The onslaught by western media against ISlam is so obvious only the foolish can say the opposite.
to be honest how on earth the usual suspects can defend the western media onslaught against islam and blame muslims and islam wholesale is really unbelivable, but then again if you read there responses it not that surprising.
*Originally posted by ehsan: *
*True to an extent, but when day in, day out every time you switch on your TV you are told that you are an Islamic terrorist, than pardon me but a reaction is bound to come. *
sure, reaction, but what type of reaction. a knee jerk reaction or a thought out response?
*I think while striving to bring balance to any argument it is probably good to show the other side a mirror once in a while. *
and mirror can be shown without using the same tactics and approach that is upsetting to us.
*One should stand up for their beliefs and say what they feel is right. I dont believe in the appeasement theory. *
I dont believe in appeasement either, I believe in level headed fair approach. make counter points, draw parallels and show inconsistencies, but not using the same approach, that is atleast how i think things should be.
*This stereotyping has turned many reasonable and moderate muslims almost militants. *
Sure, because their reaction to some type of action was more emotional, knee jerk and shortterm, not a thought out, reaction on how to address the issue.
*What do you suggest we keep turning the other cheek all the time. No sorry, but it is necessary to show the other side their shortcomings as well. *
No, dont turn the other cheek..point out inconsistencies, show how media manipulates juicy stories, but doing so in a well planned, thought out level headed and cool approach will get better results than public seeing another angry muslim ..
what is said is just as important as how it is said..
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*Originally posted by ehsan: *
True to an extent, but when day in, day out every time you switch on your TV you are told that you are an Islamic terrorist, than pardon me but a reaction is bound to come. .
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ehsan,
Just because someone insinuates you are something doesn't mean it's true. Keep true to yourself.
You are angered and offended and hurt because in your heart you know you are not.
There exists people in the world who would take advantage of your anger and hurt and without remorse use you to advance their own objectives.
This is how extremist organizations recruit people. This is often how extremists organizations get people to commit suicide upon their own self and often other innocent people.
Extremist Organizations are like Cults.
The leaders themselves don't do it.
They get the vunerable to do it.
Don't let anger take hold of you.
Never let media or other people talk you into being somebody you aren't.
Fruadia,
Your opinions are just that. You have an approach, wouldn't say it was any better or worse than anyone elses. There is more than an element of appeasement there though, as this is a relative concept.
Stereotyping an ideology and doing the same based on current political affairs is not the same. As one has substance distilled down to a few demensions and the other has few dimansions to begin with.
excellent discussion this.
Is it a matter of perception that you seem to think that the lunacy is mainstream in us, and we think its mainstream with you?
I remember someone had cited a poll recently, Pew research if Im not mistaken, that had the majority of the Muslim world believing that the 911 attacks were morally unjustified, and the american response humiliating.
The difference though lies in the fact that the american response was an official, government response. as mainstream as it gets.
by and large, Muslims, to varying degrees, feel and are victimised and stereotyped as terrorist sympathisers or creators.
And I watch the same TV you do MV (when I can 
), and I often feel that Muslims get very bad press. Arguably as bad press as America gets in the Muslim world.
Perhaps its a matter of sensitivity, perhaps our ears are finer tuned than yours, when talk turns to us.
furthermore, please dont base your opinions of the Muslim world on those posting in talkboards.
I used to post on a number of western ones. Guardian for instance. Over there, the American block is very decidedly anti-muslim in my experience. The Graun is a liberal british newspaper, and even there, and even there the islamophobia was so shockingly high, after some time I just couldnt take it anymore, I stopped going there.
how long would a Muslim last in Free Republic?
most people who post in political forums do it because they're motivated enough by their political beliefs to seek other people out and fight with them, presumably running out of people in real life. they're bound to be not-very-careful in picking words.
Ehsan
Unfortunately you are right.
Stereotyping is a fallacy in all of us in one way or another. We all tend to judge certain people , issues, behaviour, comments and actions in a parrallel manner in the first instance at the first incident.
My advice in all investigations I carried out in my early days, (when I used to work for Local Government) was to acknowledge and admit your stereotypes first and then keep them locked indoors and don't bring them out in public. That way, they stay with yourself!
I only wished it was so easy.
Originally posted by Fraudz:
sure, reaction, but what type of reaction. a knee jerk reaction or a thought out response?
Not everyone thinks alike, and majority of people are going to have knee jerk reaction when day in day out fingers are pointed at them even though they have nothing to do with the criminals or the extremists. Also remember that majority of the moderate Muslims have shown utmost restraint now for two years despite daily provocation from western media and leaders like Bush and Blair. They might not say it openly but it is implied nonetheless. Saying that they have utmost respect for Islam and Muslims is on thing bombing the hell out of innocent people of Iraq and Afghanistan is quite another. Muslims have and still are reacting quite reasonably, but for how long, that is the question? Responsibility is on both sides, if they want a considered and moderate reaction from Muslims they should also be behaving in a similar fashion. It cannot be a one way street.
** mirror can be shown without using the same tactics and approach that is upsetting to us.**
Agreed, but I will come back to my original point that we have to show them their shortcomings as well. We can’t be apologists all the time. The truth has to be highlighted.
Sure, because their reaction to some type of action was more emotional, knee jerk and short term, not a thought out, reaction on how to address the issue.
Tell me, do you think the majority of the Muslims are reacting in an emotional and knee jerk reaction. I don't think so. The problem is that the younger generation are not prepared to take all this and it is amongst them that the knee jerk reaction is growing. That is a worrying development and something has to be done. Let me give you an example. In UK now the police will stop and search cars of Asian kids because they suspect them of being terrorists. How do these guys feel after they have been searched and humiliated by police? Who is pushing our youngsters towards extremism? The answer has to be the western media and authorities to a very large extent. Another example of media hysteria was when 5 British guys were released form Guantanamo bay and returned to UK. They had been kept in illegal detention for 2 years, never charged and in the end when nothing incriminating could be found they were released. How were they greeted by UK press, they labelled them "Tipton Taliban" upon their return. Tipton is a place in UK from where the majority of these guys came. This is despite the fact that they had not been charged. Did anyone from the US administration offer them apology? Have they been offered compensation? The answer is no. Before anyone says what they were doing in Afghanistan, I don’t know but the Americans certainly were not able to bring any charges against them. The least they could do was to compensate them and give them an apology. What sort of impression does that leave on Muslims world wide?
**No, don’t turn the other cheek..point out inconsistencies, show how media manipulates juicy stories, but doing so in a well planned, thought out level headed and cool approach will get better results than public seeing another angry muslim ..
what is said is just as important as how it is said.. **
Yes of course you have to make your points in the most effective and responsible way you can, but it is also a two way partnership and the other side also needs to behave and act responsibly.
Dear ehsan,
I agree mostly with advice Mr. Fraudia gives.
I think best way to combat percieved and actual prejudice and media bias to correct those making biased comments.
If someone yells out and personally calls you "Tipton Taliban" ask why? Though I would imagine that probobly that phrase came from tabloid press? But not sure.
As far as being searched by police...take in stride. It is racial profiling and that very idea is offensive absolutely, but you might try think this way.
"every time police pull over an innocent asian or muslim..that persons calm cooperation sends a message refuting the sterotype"
Even if you think Al Quaeda motives are rightious, or the U.S. policies have created equal suffering... Al Quaeda and its related-groups have threatened to carry out attacks.
I don't blame you for being upset over media bias or racial profiling..but muslim men in certain age brackets resemble the profile of Al Quaeda members and thats why targeted... just because fitting profile doesn't mean one is a terrorist, or that even that cop pulling you over feels
all sians or muslims are terrorists... he just has to his job...
try and think this way
The person police miss pulling over just might be that single individual in 100,000 that will take out Picadilly Square or some mass transit and with that even some of your own friends and family members.
Ok to feel angry at prejudices at home that annoy you..but behave in a way that negates those prejudices.
Be even more angry that Osama Bin Ladan and his ilk have disrupted your life with a sterotype unknown prior to 9/11 because of their violent extremism.