Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Yes, you will have a case when a secular/agnostic/atheist suicide bomber blows up in middle of a crowded market.
lolz' whom you are trying to make fool? As if suicide bombing is the only way to kill people. And I know you are the biggest proponent of drone attacks.
how abruptly you people become innocent as if you dont know America has been carpet bombing in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Ask from some scholar of ANY school of thought he will tell you that dancing of men and women has nothing to do with Islam. So similarly i believe that people should not do that in the name of Islam. that does not mean that they should be killed for doing that. they should be countered by logic instead.
For conversion of non-musilms into muslims, there was a reason of appearance of Islam in the presence of other religions. If people miss that point and consider all the religion as equal then i cannot say anything about those converted people.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
lolz' whom you are trying to make fool? As if suicide bombing is the only way to kill people. And I know you are the biggest proponent of drone attacks.
how abruptly you people become innocent as if you dont know America has been carpet bombing in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Had America done that there would have been no humans in these two countries!
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Ask from some scholar of ANY school of thought he will tell you that dancing of men and women has nothing to do with Islam. So similarly i believe that people should not do that in the name of Islam. that does not mean that they should be killed for doing that. they should be countered by logic instead.
For conversion of non-musilms into muslims, there was a reason of appearance of Islam in the presence of other religions. If people miss that point and consider all the religion as equal then i cannot say anything about those converted people.
And if they do not accept your logic, you will bomb them?
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
And if they do not accept your logic, you will bomb them?
The attacks on barelvis, shias and minorities are justified as per taleban ideology. I am certain if Islam was spread through TTP way, we would still have been kafirs. These days the only muslims around are salafis and the taleban kind, hence according to them Pakistan is a kafir country. Keeping in view the government should change the name of the country to Republic of Pakistan.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
......
how abruptly you people become innocent as if you dont know America has been carpet bombing in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I agree it is terrible and evil of America to bomb people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
is it okay for taliban to do the same in Pakistan?
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Had America done that there would have been no humans in these two countries!
come on dont pretend. more than half (if not complete) of kabul was destructed in first two years of Afghan war. in additon to what happend to kabul, it has been reported that they bombed marriage ceremonies, poor village houses and what not. And more importantly the damage that has not been reported outweigh the damage that has been reported.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
And if they do not accept your logic, you will bomb them?
quoting my post. its not my logic i said ask ANY scholar, didnt you get what does that mean?
[QUOTE]
Ask some scholar of ANY school of thought he will tell you that dancing of men and women has nothing to do with Islam. So similarly i believe that people should not do that in the name of Islam. that does not mean that they should be killed for doing that. they should be countered by logic instead.
[/QUOTE]
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
I agree it is terrible and evil of America to bomb people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
is it okay for taliban to do the same in Pakistan?
it reminds me your reply to khoji "is it necessary to condemn TTP whenever you criticize MQM?"
although i have said in my post# 22 "they should not be killed"
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Mystical Islam ‘a threat to the Taliban’ | Asia | DW.DE | 30.10.2012
On Sunday, a bomb blast outside the shrine of Kaka Sahib - a 16th century Sunni Muslim saint - in the district Nowshera of the northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan, killed at least three devotees of the saint and wounding 25 people.
“It was a remote-controlled bomb that killed three people at the site,” local police chief Muhammad Hussain told the media. Some Pakistani newspapers have put the death toll higher.
No group claimed responsibility for the attack but Taliban militants have been known to attack shrines in the region in the past.
**Pakistan is facing a protracted insurgency in its troubled northwestern tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. Taliban insurgents have killed thousands of people over the years and attacked places of worship of minorities and followers of other Islamic denominations.
**
Pluralism
The militants - most of whom belong to the Saudi-Wahhabi sect of Islam - have attacked a number of Sufi shrines in many Pakistani cities in the past, killing scores of devotees, who mostly belong to the minority Shiite Islamic group or the majority Sunni Barelvi sect.
Historians say that both Shiites and Barelvis believe in a wide cultural interpretation of Islam and seek inspiration from the Persian and Arabic saints, who played a role in spreading Islam throughout the Indian subcontinent. Many Shiites and Barelvis also revere mystics of Indian origin and regularly visit their shrines which are spread throughout India and Pakistan. These Muslims saints are equally loved by Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Jews in South Asia.
On the contrary, the Wahhabis, which are a relatively smaller group among the Sunnis, believe in “puritan Islam” and consider pilgrimages to shrines outside of the Islamic faith to be against the teachings of Muhammad.
**Dr. Mubarak Ali, a renowned Pakistani historian, told DW that the Taliban were against cultural variation. “Wahhabis are against any cultural plurality so they attack shrines, music festivals and other cultural centers that are not Islamic in their view,” he said.
**
**The historian said that the influence of Saudi Arabia had seeped into the psyche of many Pakistanis, causing an “Arabization” of their many traditions.
**
**Many Pakistani analysts, including Ali, say that the zealot Wahhabi groups and political parties not only frown upon pilgrimages to non-Islamic shrines, they also endorse the demolition of historical Muslim sites, and emulate Saudi Arabia in this regard. A recent article in The Independent newspaper titled “Media: Saudis take a bulldozer to Islam’s history” claims that the Saudi regime had destroyed a number of graves of known Islamic figures and historical sites such as the prophet of Islam’s birthplace and the house of the prophet’s first wife Khadija for the fear that people might convert them into places of worship.
**
An ideological battle
**Shoaib Ashraf, a lawyer and rights activist in Karachi, told DW that the Taliban were bent on destroying the diverse cultural fabric of Pakistani society.
**
**“Pakistan cannot afford this kind of extremism. It is facing several crises at the moment but this is going to do an irreparable damage to the country. Pakistan will not survive if a minority forcefully imposes its extremist agenda on majority,” Ashraf said.
**
Attiya Dawood, a writer and peace activist, told DW that the love for saints ran deep in hundreds of thousands of people in Pakistan and that a big number of Pakistanis went to the shrines and listened to qawwali, or Sufi music.
“The Taliban want to create fear among the people by attacking their sacred places so that they can restrict their social mobility and freedom,” she said.
**Many Pakistani analysts are of the opinion that the main reason behind the attacks on shrines and followers of the saints is more political than religious. They say that the mystical Islam provides a counter-narrative to extremist Islam and is probably the biggest ideological threat to the Wahhabis. Some believe that mystical Islam could be more effective in defeating the Taliban than any military operation.
**
State support
**Experts, however, say that the policies of the Pakistani state are not in favor of the proponents of Sufi Islam and are thus emboldening fanatics.
**
**“As long as the Pakistani state and security agencies continue to use Wahhabism as a dominant state narrative, attacks on shrines and their devotees will not cease,” said Ashraf.
**
**Ali also pointed out that Wahhabi groups and organizations enjoyed state patronage and flourished at the expense of other groups, which in the past had been snubbed by the government. “It is a bit strange though because Wahhabism is a minority Sunni sect in Pakistan,” Ali said.
**
Ashraf demanded that the Pakistani government not only abandon its support to zealot Wahhabis, but also promote pluralistic Islam. This, he said, would not only be beneficial to Pakistani society in the long run but would also improve the international community’s image of Pakistan.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Report: Attacks on Sufi shrines signify new conflict in Pashtun lands by Zia Ur Rehman
The attacks began many years ago with Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan and Lashkar-e-Islam’s targeting of tombs of great Sufi saints in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA. The shrines of Hazrat Rehman Baba, Abdul Shakoor Malang Baba, Hazrat Abu Saeed Baba, Mian Umer Baba and Malang Baba were attacked and desecrated, while that of Hazrat Sayyad Ali Tirmizi, commonly known as Pir Baba in Buner, was locked. The mausoleum of famous freedom fighter Haji Sahib Tarangzai in Mohmand Agency was captured and converted into Taliban headquarters. -
In July 2010, the shrine of Sufi saint Data Ganj Baksh Hajveri in Lahore was attacked by two suicide bombers. At least 45 devotees were killed and dozens others injured. A suicide attack on the shrine of Sufi saint Abdullah Shah Ghazi in Karachi killed another nine people in October 2010. An attack on Baba Farid Shakarganj’s shrine in Pakpattan in October that year left another seven people dead. -
Pakistan mystics targeted by Taliban - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan | NBC News
In December 2008, a spiritual leader named Pir Samiullah belonging to the Barelvi sect, along with seven colleagues, was killed by Taliban militants in Swat Valley for dissenting. His followers buried him, but the Taliban exhumed his body and hanged it publicly. “Fighting us is like negation of [the] Quran,” the then-Taliban commander was quoted as saying.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
BTW who is active in attacking Sufi shrines in Sindh? I don't see active presence of LeJ and TTP there.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
This is the appropriate name Pakistan should go for now.
The ‘Wahabi Republic’ of Pakistan | Asia | DW.DE | 24.08.2012
It is not so difficult to find people in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who despise the Taliban and their suicide bombings that have killed scores of Pakistanis over the past few years. Yet, it is not common to hear voices opposing Saudi Arabia and its Wahabi state ideology.
**The Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, which is also home to the sacred Islamic site Kaaba, is one of the most revered cities for Muslims in the world. That alone is enough to make Saudi Arabia a holy country for millions of Pakistanis. Therefore, for many Pakistani Muslims, criticizing Saudi Arabia is synonymous with criticizing Islam.
**
Previous to Ayatollah Khomeini’s Shiite revolution in Iran in 1979, the Pakistani state maintained good relations with both Iran and Saudi Arabia. After the revolution, it became much closer to the latter. Saudi-Pakistani ties deepened during the Afghan War against the Soviet Union during the 1980s. At that time, both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia became close allies with the US and wholeheartedly supported the mujahedeen in Afghanistan.
What did not change after the Afghan War was Pakistan’s inclination toward Saudi Arabia and militant Wahabi organizations.
The root of extremism
Pakistan’s former law minister Iqbal Haider told DW that most jihadist and terrorist organizations operating in Pakistan were Wahabis.
**“Whether they are the Taliban or the Lashkar-e-Taiba, their ideology is Saudi-Wahabi without an iota of doubt,” Haider said. “All these organizations get their backing from the Pakistani military and its security agencies.”
**
Haider, who served as law minister under former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto (who was allegedly assassinated in 2007 by the Taliban) blamed the former military dictator General Zia-ul-Haq for making it a state policy to fund and arm Wahabi groups in the 1980s. He said that the General used these organizations against minority groups, including the Shiites, who, according to Haider had sympathies with Iran. He said there was no doubt that Saudi Arabia was supporting Wahabi groups through General Haq to kill Iran’s support in Pakistan.
But Pakistani historian Dr. Mubarak Ali said the Wahabi influence in the Indian sub-continent was as old as Wahhabism itself.
“Abdul Wahab, the Arabian Salafi theologian and the founder of the hard-line Wahabi ideology, died in the late 18th century. Wahabi preachers started coming to British India in the 1880s. They motivated many Indian Muslims to fight against the British rule,” Ali said, adding that the puritan Deobandi sect was also an offshoot of Wahhabism’s influence in India.
“In Pakistan, Wahabi groups and organizations enjoyed state patronage and flourished at the expense of other groups, which were snubbed by various Pakistani regimes. It is a bit strange because Wahhabism is a minority Sunni sect in Pakistani,” Ali said.
**The historian also said that Wahhabism not only affected the polity of Pakistan but also damaged the pluralistic Indo-Pakistani culture.
**
“Wahabis are against any cultural plurality so they attack shrines, music festivals and other cultural centers that are not Islamic in their view,” he said.
Wahhabism has seeped into the psyche of many Pakistanis, causing an “Arabization” of many traditions. “People now say ‘Allah Hafiz’ (May Allah protect you) instead of ‘Khuda Hafiz’ (May God protect you) and ‘Ramadan’ instead of ‘Ramzan’ in an attempt to imitate Saudis,” said Ali.
The Saudi-US alliance
Western countries accuse Pakistan - the Pakistani military’s spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in particular - of backing the Taliban, who they say have safe havens in Pakistan’s northwestern tribal areas, which border Afghanistan. The say the Islamist militants launch attacks on the Afghan soil from their hideouts in Pakistan, and that the Pakistani government is not doing enough to destroy the terrorists’ sanctuaries.
But Iqbal Haider said it was paradoxical that the West criticized Pakistan but said nothing against Saudi Arabia, which was the main financer of the militant Wahabi organizations in Pakistan.
“Saudi Arabia is one of the biggest allies of the United States in the Middle East. It also serves the role of a mediator between Washington and Islamabad. During the Shah of Iran’s rule, Iran was acting out this role; it is now Riyadh,” Haider said.
Haider also accused the Pakistani state of massacring Shiites in the country’s northwestern Gilgit-Baltistan area.
Last week, 22 Shiite Muslims were brutally murdered by the Taliban in Mansehra while they were travelling in a passenger bus from Rawalpindi to Gilgit.
The gunmen first identified them as Shiites and then killed them at point blank range. Some Pakistani experts call it “sectarian cleansing” of the Shiites by Wahabi groups and the state.
Haider told DW that the state wanted the Wahabi monopoly in Pakistan for its geo-political and strategic interests, so it had been systematically killing those who could be a hindrance in the implementation of its agenda.
"These attacks are not new. Taliban launched several attacks on the Gilgit Shiites during Pervez Musharraf’s (former military dictator) government too.
The army never tries to stop them," said Haider, adding that he conducted his own research on this issue and found out that the Taliban militants from Afghanistan could enter Gilgit-Baltistan unhindered and unopposed by Pakistani security forces.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
They are active there now.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Blaming Saudi arabia would not help. how come Saudi arabia didnt support these terrorists before 9/11?
suadia arabia is soft target for secularists but that doesnt mean targeting Saudi Arabia is going to help solve our problem. Our problems with Taliban are created by America but, since America is secular and super power so it seems stupid to look at America as reason of contention.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
it reminds me your reply to khoji "is it necessary to condemn TTP whenever you criticize MQM?" although i have said in my post# 22 "they should not be killed"
Exactly. Why bring USA into this debate then?
What if the dancing men do not dance in the name of Islam? They dance because they want to and also do not force anyone else to dance. Would it still bother you?
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Maybe you don’t know, but OBL was Saudi national and 15 of 19 hijackers on 19/11 were Saudis (you probably think they were Jews). Sauidis are spending 100s of billion of petrodollars in the name of Islam exporting terrorism everywhere they can.
Jonathan Manthorpe: Saudi Arabia Funding Fuels Jihadist Terror
Jonathan Manthorpe: Saudi Arabia Funding Fuels Jihadist Terror
Big chunks of the country’s huge oil earnings have been spent on spreading a violent and intolerant variety of Islam
By Jonathan Manthorpe
June 16, 2013 "Information Clearing House - “Vancouver Sun” – The ultimate responsibility for recent atrocities like the Boston Marathon bombing and the butchering last week of an off-duty British soldier is very clear.
It belongs to Saudi Arabia.
Over more than two decades, Saudi Arabia has lavished around $100 billion or more on the worldwide promotion of the violent, intolerant and crudely puritanical Wahhabist sect of Islam that the ruling royal family espouses.
The links of the Boston bombers and the London butchers to organizations following the Saudi royal family’s religious line are clear.
One of the two London butchers, Nigerian-born Michael Adebolajo, was radicalized by the cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, who headed the outlawed terrorist group Al-Muhajiroun.
The group follows Wahhabist teachings and advocates unifying all Muslims, forcibly if necessary, under a single fundamentalist theocratic government.
Similarly, the Boston bombers, Tamerlan and Dzokhar Tsarnaev, hailed from Russia’s southern predominantly Muslim province of Chechnya. Starting in the late 1980s, Saudi Arabia began dispatching Wahhabist clerics and radical preachers to Chechnya.
The spread of Wahhabism sparked not only a separatist war against the Russians, but also a good deal of violence among Muslims.
Wahhabism is now institutionalized in Chechnya and is particularly attractive to young men.
There are similar strands leading back to Wahhabist indoctrination in the histories of very many of the known Muslim terrorists of the last 20 years.
The founder of the sect, Muhammad ibn abd al-Wahhab, was an eighteenth century Muslim zealot allied to the Al-Saud clan who promoted an extreme version of Salafism.
Salaf is the Arab word meaning pious ancestor and refers to those who attempt to emulate the pure Islamic life of the Prophet Muhammad and his generation of followers.
But Wahhab and his modern disciples take this notion to extremes. The list of people whom Wahhabists should consider their enemies includes not only Christians, Jews, Hindus and atheists, but also Shiite, Sufi and Sunni Muslims.
And yet no western politicians seem prepared to accept the obvious.
The chances of disaffected young men being drawn into the evil web of Wahhabist murderous extremism would be significantly decreased if the Saudi funding was blocked.
The Saudis began exporting Wahhabism in the early 1970s when the country’s oil wealth began growing at an ever-increasing rate.
The amount the Saudi royal family, both by government donations and the generosity of individual princes, now lavishes on Wahhabist schools, colleges, mosques, Islamic centres and the missionary work of fundamentalist imams around the world is extraordinary.
In 2003, a United States Senate committee on terrorism heard testimony that in the previous 20 years Saudi Arabia had spent $87 billion on promoting Wahhabism worldwide.
This included financing 210 Islamic centres, 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges and 2,000 madrassas (religious schools).
Various estimates put the amount the Saudi government spends on these missionary institutions as up to $3 billion a year.
This money smothers the voices of moderate Muslims and the poison flows into every Muslim community worldwide.
Key figures in the September 2001 attacks on the United States were radicalized at mosques in Germany.
Britain is now reckoned by some to be the worst breeding ground anywhere for violent Muslim fundamentalists
Indian newspapers recently reported Saudi Arabia has a massive $35 billion program to build mosques and religious schools across South Asia, where there are major Muslim communities in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the divided territory of Jammu and Kashmir.
Indian police and Central Intelligence officers were quoted as saying their information came from American intelligence agencies.
There are unconfirmed reports that Saudi Arabia and members of the royal family have donated millions of dollars to fund mosques and Islamic centres in Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary and Quebec.
The money, and the emphasis on Wahhabist teaching that comes with it, has caused sharp divisions among Canadian Muslims.
Over the years, there have been repeated complaints to Saudi Arabia about its funding of radical indoctrination. But while there has been some toning down of the most inflammatory language in the Wahhabist texts the Saudi’s disperse, the overall message of the propaganda program has changed little.
Where the Saudi government has retreated under pressure from Washington is in the direct funding of terrorist organizations.
It is widely believed by western intelligence agencies that in the 1980s and 90s, the Saudi government had a deal with Wahhabist terrorist groups like al-Qaida that their fundraising would not be hindered so long as they only operated in foreign countries.
However, after the terrorist attack on a residential compound for foreigners in Riyadh in May, 2003, the Saudi government began a crackdown on terrorism.
But even though the Saudi government ended official support for groups like al-Qaida, the Taliban and the Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, private donations from Saudi Arabia still find their way to these and similar groups.
But when all is said and done, curbing direct payments to terrorist groups is a small matter when so many billions of dollars continue to be directed at creating terrorists.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Yes Saudia should not be brought into this debate as its blasphemy. What is this ideology which is creating mayhem in Pakistan and the whole Middle East? When did this all begin and why? Why is it that before 79 people have been living together for centuries, but now living side by side is one thing, the people having different beliefs don't even have the right to live. Are kafir Americans blowing up shrines, Shias and minorities? Mind you SSP exists since early 80's.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
quoting my post. its not my logic i said ask ANY scholar, didnt you get what does that mean?
Whatever scholars say but some people still want to indulge in it. So you can not stop them by force? Would you? Kabul was more destroyed by local fighting than USA attack.
Re: Steeped in ancient mysticism, passion of Pakistani Sufis infuriates Taliban
Its not concrete. Just a gaddi nasheen say so doesn’t make us to believe it like a aasmnai saheefa. These sufi shrines have been centre point of all the crimes (you name it). Which Islam these shrines are promoting? If sahib e mazar knows whats going on in these shrines, he would denounce all practices. I don’t trust people who portray these shrines and gaddi nasheen as progressive. They are in worst condition and living double life (read as hypocrites). Sufism is more in danger due to practices of these gaddi nasheen and their actions than any other ideology.
There is a punch line in sufiism ‘There is no tareeqa without shareea’. Shareeaa is non existent in these places.
One of my cousin told (he calls me wahabi BTW) that a person who just came from Haj was asked by a gaddi nasheen ‘Haj se aae ho, wahan Baitullah main khuda ko dekha’. The poor guy said ‘No’. Gaddi Nasheen hyptonise and did something with the guy and he started running like anything for an hour or more. At last, that murshid made him stop and asked ‘ab khuda nazar aaya’. The guy replied ‘Yes’. These people have made local haj (Lahoot La makaan), specified some places more respectful than Kaba (Makli Thatta). Just say to a Barelvi that Nabi was Bashar, he will let you know that he is as intolerant as any Wahabi / Deobandi. Shrines and gaddis are flourishing business like in pre-Islam Arab Kaba was a business point.