Status of Women in Islam

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**how about this for a change to set the women free Polyandry

Ibrahim says; This practice was introduced in Hinduism by necessity and should be considered immoral.

The story goes like this.. A king was cursed by a sage for killing him while he was satisfying his lust in the form of a deer . hence the king decided to ask his queen to father his children through other man for he believed children was a requirement for man to go to heaven.

This queen( kunti) eventfully had Five children and in a contest the prize was to be shared equally ( kunti’s instructions to her children) amongst the five children but the prize turned out to be a woman (Draupadi) Hence polyandry had to be practiced. ( If you want full details ask and I will post)

Polyandry means:-

marriage of a woman to two or more men at the same time; the term derives from the Greek polys, "many," and aner, andros, "man." When the husbands in a polyandrous marriage are brothers or are said to be brothers, the institution is called ** adelphic, or fraternal, polyandry.** Sometimes in the latter form of union the children are said to be descended from the eldest brother only, whereas in other cases the role of father is established by special ceremony, or the children are said to belong to all brothers equally.
Now let us look at India and its current form of polyandry

Toda:

pastoral tribe of the Nilgiri Hills of southern India. Numbering only about 800 in the early 1960s, they were rapidly increasing in population because of improved health facilities. The Toda language is Dravidian but is the most aberrant of that linguistic stock.

Polyandry is fairly common;** several men, usually brothers, may share one wife. When a Toda woman becomes pregnant one of her husbands ceremonially presents her with a toy bow and arrow, thus proclaiming himself the social father of her children. **

Pahari

also called PARBATE, KHASA, or CHETRI, people of mixed descent who constitute about three-fifths the population of Nepal and a majority of the population of neighbouring Himalayan India (in Himachal Pradesh and northern Uttar Pradesh). They speak languages belonging to the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-European family; the people are historically ancient, having been mentioned by the authors Pliny and Herodotus and figuring in India's epic poem, the Mahabharata. Their numbers were estimated to be about 20,000,000 in the late 20th century.

The great majority of the Pahari are Hindus, but their caste structure is less orthodox and less complex than that of the plains to the south. Usually they are divided into the high "clean" or "twice-born" castes (Khasia, or Ka) and the low "unclean" or "polluting" castes (Dom). Most of the high-caste Pahari are farmers; the Dom work in a variety of occupations and may be goldsmiths, leatherworkers, tailors, musicians, drummers, and sweepers.

**Polyandry is apparently widespread (several brothers, in particular, may share one or more wives), but other marital arrangements are certainly more common; some families have an equal number of husbands and wives; in a few, one husband has several wives; and some families have only one husband and one wife. Most girls are married before they are 10 years old, though they do not cohabit with their husbands until they are mature. **There is a double standard of sexual behaviour for women, who must be faithful to their husbands while living with them; when a married woman goes home to visit her parents, however, she is permitted the liberties of an unmarried girl.

Ibrahim says: What this hindus do not realize is the fact that the reason why kunti was asked by her husband to bear her children sired by other man is his desire to go to heaven .

Meaning without children their understanding at that period and time was man would not be able to go to heaven.

The point here is that they believed in heaven and hell and NEVER knew anything about “REBIRTHS” that is being propagated in Hinduism in the current times.

Meaning there is no such thing as rebirth for hindus or for any human being, all Hindus ( and mankind for that matter) will die only once and you will end up in hell or heaven according to your works . And most hindus have been assured hell for their works due to idolatry which is forbidden by God in hindu scriptures too.

Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim

Marriages are made in heaven but the married couples are responsible for maintenance

[Amitayus]

I normally do not participate in religious discussions. I firmly believe religion is a matter of one's personal faith and has nobody should bubble with "mine better than yours" mentality.

However some people of every religion including Islam, Christianity and my religion Hinduism do the exact opposite.

As I'm dealing with Islam now, let us leave the others for the time being.

There is a BIIIG MYTH that Islam has given all the rights to women. And it will be also wrong to say that Islam has done nothing for women. Yes, at that time Islam gave some very vital rights to women like right of property, widow remarriage etc. But that is NOT end of the world. It never gave women the right to govern a state. It made hizab mandatory, it made her subservient to her husband in many matters. Still whatever rights that were given to women by the Prophet (PBUH) was no doubt revolutionary considering the pre-Islamic days where women were treated like animals.

However, time changes, so does the society. Whatever edict that was enforced was perfect at that time, but not now. It will be idiotic to impart them in toto in today's world.

I know plenty of usual hues and cries would come up.

Islam is not a religion but a way of life. As Qu'ran is Allah's revelations, no one can deviate from it. Like it or not, the women have to wrapped up in Patagonian petticoats. Then there will be an interview of a neo-Muslim who earlier used to thump Daytona beach in skimpy bikinis. One fine morning she thunderstruck to reality and understood the correct way to lead life. Now she locks herself in a black sack and prays 25 times a day. Amen!!

These things don't prove anything. Many Hindus still believe caste system is the perfect way to exist, not to mention the bigotry of the Christians.

On the other hand scores of Muslim women like Asma Jehangir, Taslima Nasreen have staunchly criticized those aspects of Islam which crush the rights of the women in this 21st century. They have successfully bursted the bubble of Islam's greatest respect to women and other stuff.
I'm not blaming the edicts of Qu'ran and Hadith, I again repeat they were revolutionary 1300 years ago. But maintaining the status quo is dangerous because society is like moving river, it is not static.The values have changed, the ambience have changed, the relationships have changed.

With this narrow mindset and total ignorance on other's faith like Hinduism, it becomes a dangerous concoction.

Manu Smriti is an edict developed in the later and has nothing to do with the essence of Hinduism. Nor does one accept Manu Smriti in the running of state's affairs.

Ibrahim says; This is where you reveal your lack of knowledge Hinduism fundamentally declares that woman, sudras , dogs and black birds ( grouped together) are EVIL and should not be looked at even If one wants to remain pious.

Peace and blessings be unto you, O intelligent and know-everything soul. Pray tell me in which scripture of Hinduism (Vedas, Upanishads) this has been given.

P.S. Do you know in the Vedic days, women in India enjoyed complete freedom and power and not forced to cocconate in a piece of cloth? Have you heard the names of Gargi, Maitreyee?

Most of you are picking up the later days distortion of Hinduism by some vested Brahminical interest. This has nothing to do with the core religion. Just like you cannot judge the basic tenets of Islam by the conducts of Talibans.

Again I say, religion is a matter of one's personal faith, it is unnecessary to boast it in the public and becomes dangerous when it tries to claim superiority over other's faith. This becomes the fountainhead of bigotry, intolerance. So better take the Prophet's advice, "Unto you your religion, and unto me mine."

[This message has been edited by Amitayus (edited August 07, 2001).]

[sholay]

Amitayus

You have 'hit it the nail on the head' with the following statement.

Still whatever rights that were given to women by the Prophet (PBUH) was no doubt revolutionary considering the pre-Islamic days where women were treated like animals.

Sholay says,

Now, just for the record, can you please confirm if Hinduism was in practice before or after the Prophet PBUH. We can then confirm which of the Religions treated women like animals.

Finally, is the Vedas manmade or is it Divine Revelation and is it still in it's Original Format!

Once you have have answered, we can then move onto other issues you have raised.

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Amitayus:
It never gave women the right to govern a state.

Ibrahim says; You mean If this right was Not given, Islam has short changed the woman?

Amitayus:It made hizab mandatory,

Ibrahim says; This was mandatory for all woman from the beginning of time, It was because some have chosen to deviate from it we see the current infatuations of semi nudes on the streets.

Amitayus: it made her subservient to her husband in many matters.

Ibrahim says; This is also an existing law from the beginning and it is vital for the harmony of the family unit.

Amitayus: Still whatever rights that were given to women by the Prophet (PBUH) was no doubt revolutionary considering the pre-Islamic days where women were treated like animals.

Ibrahim says; No the Prophet ( pbuh) did not design any laws He only reestablished the established laws that became corrupt due to people like you who decided that they knew better. And altered them so much so woman were looked down and treated with contempt.

Amitayus: However, time changes, so does the society. Whatever edict that was enforced was perfect at that time, but not now. It will be idiotic to impart them in toto in today’s world.

Ibrahim says; This was the same stupendous logic people used to alter the laws in the past so much so woman became the scorn of the community and eventually ended up as being treated like animals.

Amitayus: Islam is not a religion but a way of life.

Ibrahim says; Religion means a way of life! Only One religion was revealed to mankind hence Islam had existed from the beginning and got altered again and again so much so the other religions that are present today are actually deviations of Islam, hence they have been left to stray by Allah ( swt) who removed even His name from their memory because of their desire to alter his message.

Amitayus: As Qu’ran is Allah’s revelations, no one can deviate from it. Like it or not, the women have to wrapped up in Patagonian petticoats.

Ibrahim says; This reveals your lack of knowledge, Allah (swt) had ordained this from the beginning If people chose to do otherwise, that is their problem and Allah (swt) had ensured that they are all kept on record and will be held accountable for all that they have done. But they will not be held accountable for what you do.

Amitayus: On the other hand scores of Muslim women like Asma Jehangir, Taslima Nasreen have staunchly criticized those aspects of Islam which crush the rights of the women in this 21st century. They have successfully bursted the bubble of Islam’s greatest respect to women and other stuff.

Ibrahim says; You mean they have made a fool of themselves? Since what they claim is disputed by their own sisters even Christian coverts ( who have lived with such freedom) will claim that they are foolish.

Amitayus: But maintaining the status quo is dangerous because society is like moving river, it is not static.The values have changed, the ambience have changed, the relationships have changed.

Ibrahim says; But Allah (swt) has not changed nor has human requirements have changed nor will the revelations change…that is why they have been revealed over and over again so much so every tribe is aware of the Creator having revealed that heaven and hell exists for mankind.

Amitayus: Manu Smriti is an edict developed in the later and has nothing to do with the essence of Hinduism. Nor does one accept Manu Smriti in the running of state’s affairs.

Ibrahim says; LOL! either you must be the author of manu smrti or you must be a very naïve person to say foolish things like above. Manu smrti contains the traditions that man lived by in Arabia as well as India prior to the Prophet (pbuh) reestablishing Islam . This laws are still prevalent in India and a MUST for a Brahmin to adhere to. I already posted on this very thread what manu smrti represents for a Brahmin. Are you disputing it?

Amitayus: Ibrahim says; This is where you reveal your lack of knowledge Hinduism fundamentally declares that woman, sudras , dogs and black birds ( grouped together) are EVIL and should not be looked at even If one wants to remain pious.

Peace and blessings be unto you, O intelligent and know-everything soul. Pray tell me in which scripture of Hinduism (Vedas, Upanishads) this has been given.

Ibrahim says this is from the Vedas, Satapatha Brahmana is part of the Vedas

Read!

“And whilst not coming into contact with Sudras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sudra, the dog, and the black bird (the crow), are untruth: he should not look at these, lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth.” – Satapatha Brahmana 14:1:1:31.

Amitayus: Most of you are picking up the later days distortion of Hinduism by some vested Brahminical interest. This has nothing to do with the core religion.

Ibrahim says; I am afraid you have revealed your lack of knowledge concerning Hinduism , I suggest that you study more to find out what manu smrti is for a Brahmin and please do not assume that others are all picking up distortions which are not the core of its teachings just because it does not agree with your understanding.

Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim

We are not permitted to put the frame of our destiny . But what we put into it is ours

[Amitayus]

Now, just for the record, can you please confirm if Hinduism was in practice before or after the Prophet PBUH. We can then confirm which of the Religions treated women like animals.

Hinduis was certainly in practise before the advent of the Prophet.

Finally, is the Vedas manmade or is it Divine Revelation and is it still in it’s Original Format!

Every religion thinks its scripture is Divine and not man-made and it is in original format. So the debate will be never ending. No more point wasting time on this.

I repeat, Islam gave certain fundamental rights to women which were unthinkable in those days in the Arabian peninsula. But no point getting stuck at that level only. Am I clear?

Now taking on our I-know-everything Ibrahim.

It never gave women the right to govern a state. Yes, it never did. Islam does NOT allow a Muslim to become the head of the state. Was there any woman Caliph? I may search my memory and post the releveant Surah.

Ibrahim says; This was mandatory for all woman from the beginning of time, It was because some have chosen to deviate from it we see the current infatuations of semi nudes on the streets.

Excuse me, who says it was mandatory from the begining of the time? For example in Hinduism, there is no concept of Hijab. Why do you think yours is right and ours is wrong?

Amitayus: it made her subservient to her husband in many matters.

Ibrahim says; This is also an existing law from the beginning and it is vital for the harmony of the family unit.

Again, who are you to force down your belief on women? By God’s decree I believe? Then I’m afraid this decree is unfair and unjust. In today’s world, nobody is subservient to any one, women have their own rights, dignity which cannot be suppressed by religious dogmas.

Ibrahim says; No the Prophet ( pbuh) did not design any laws He only reestablished the established laws that became corrupt due to people like you who decided that they knew better. And altered them so much so woman were looked down and treated with contempt.

Who treats women with contempt? The mullahs, the fanatics of all religions (not only Islam) and not secular institution. Tons can be said is this regard but just visit one site http://www.rawa.org

Ibrahim says; This was the same stupendous logic people used to alter the laws in the past so much so woman became the scorn of the community and eventually ended up as being treated like animals.

Under theocracy, under fundamentalism, under religious dogma, women are treated as commodities. They’re not allowed to assert themselves, their voices are choked.

Ibrahim says; Religion means a way of life! Only One religion was revealed to mankind hence Islam had existed from the beginning and got altered again and again so much so the other religions that are present today are actually deviations of Islam, hence they have been left to stray by Allah ( swt) who removed even His name from their memory because of their desire to alter his message.

This is an endless argument. A Hindu will never agree with Islamic values, no matter how much you shout. You can go on crying n number of times that only Islam is God’s faith, rest others are bull, it won’t cut much ice with the non-Muslims. Just like if I constantly hum in your ears, Hinduism is the only true religion…blah blah blah

Amitayus: On the other hand scores of Muslim women like Asma Jehangir, Taslima Nasreen have staunchly criticized those aspects of Islam which crush the rights of the women in this 21st century. They have successfully bursted the bubble of Islam’s greatest respect to women and other stuff.

Ibrahim says; You mean they have made a fool of themselves? Since what they claim is disputed by their own sisters even Christian coverts ( who have lived with such freedom) will claim that they are foolish.

It is quite debatable who’s making fool of themselves. I frankly think you’re making fool of yourself which is quite apparent in your next posting.

This laws are still prevalent in India and a MUST for a Brahmin to adhere to. I already posted on this very thread what manu smrti represents for a Brahmin. Are you disputing it?

Yo want to say India is still governed by Manu Smriti and Bramhins must adhere to it!!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I’m stunned, I’m shocked, I’m struck by your liberal display of knowledge.

So I take your knowledge on the Vedas with a pinch of salt. I’ll check your interpretation but judging by your knowledge, they’re wrong for certain.

Ibrahim says; I am afraid you have revealed your lack of knowledge concerning Hinduism , I suggest that you study more to find out what manu smrti is for a Brahmin and please do not assume that others are all picking up distortions which are not the core of its teachings just because it does not agree with your understanding.

Ahem!! Please be careful when you rain your oceans of knowledge on Hinduism. It is likely to cause cardiac failure of any knowledgable person and you’ll be charged with culpable homicide.

[This message has been edited by Amitayus (edited August 07, 2001).]

[sholay]

Amitayus

You have confirmed exactly your own point.

You stated that Islam gave women rights which were not given prior to Islam as women were treated like animals.

Obviously, if Hinduism was here prior to Islam then you are the culprits. You treated women like animals.

I'm not saying this. You are!

Just for reference, I have posted your own sayings:

Still whatever rights that were given to women by the Prophet (PBUH) was no doubt revolutionary considering the pre-Islamic days where women were treated like animals.

Hinduis was certainly in practise before the advent of the Prophet.

Get your thinking cap on in order to justify your claims with something like 'what I meant was...................'

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Amitayus:
Amitayus: Now taking on our I-know-everything Ibrahim.

Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace one and all

Hey Amitayus! either talk according to context or make a fool of yourself that is entirely up to you. Just so that we can understand your ability to THINK rationally, show me where I have stated I know everything in this forum or any other forum?

IF you cannot than you are basically of a dubious character and should be looked at with contempt, since you lack sincerity in you.

Amitayus: It never gave women the right to govern a state. Yes, it never did. Islam does NOT allow a Muslim to become the head of the state. Was there any woman Caliph? I may search my memory and post the releveant Surah.

Ibrahim says: My question to you earlier , was this!!

*Ibrahim says; You mean If this right was Not given, Islam has short changed the woman? *

your answer being out of context has no relevance to my question, anyway when God has enjoined that a woman for her own safety do not mix freely with man other than her family and husband , why should Allah (swt), be allowing a woman to conduct affairs of a state where she will have to come in contact with other man all the time??

Amitayus: Excuse me, who says it was mandatory from the begining of the time? For example in Hinduism, there is no concept of Hijab. Why do you think yours is right and ours is wrong?

Ibrahim says; See! With little knowledge of your own religion, you seem to make claims and assertions that I am basing my views on my religion against your religion. On the contrary my views are based on your religion.
All you had to do was use that brains of yours and you would have seen what I saw.
I have earlier quoted the verse which tells the pious to avoid woman! Now how does one do that? By two means one being they lower their gaze and the other being that the woman cover themselves such that they will not be seen exposed.

Which is further expounded by these verses

“Now the duties of a woman (are as follows): To live in harmony with her husband; To show reverence (by embracing their feet and such-like attentions) to her mother-in-law, father-in-law, to Gurus (such as elders), to divinities, and to guests; To keep household articles (such as the winnowing basket and the rest) in good array; To maintain saving habits; To be careful with her (pestle and mortar and other) domestic utensils; Not to practice incantations with roots (or other kinds of witchcraft); To observe auspicious customs;** Not to decorate herself with ornaments (or to partake of amusements) while her husband is absent from home; Not to resort to the houses of strangers (during the absence of her husband); Not to stand near the doorway or by the windows (of her house); Not to act by herself in any matter; To remain subject, in her infancy, to her father; in her youth, to her husband; and in her old age, to her sons.** After the death of her husband, ** to preserve her chastity, or to ascend the pile (funeral pyre) after him. No sacrifice, no vow, and no fasting is allowed to women apart from their husbands; to pay obedience to her lord is the only means for a woman to obtain bliss in heaven. ** A woman who keeps a fast or performs a vow (apart from her master) in the lifetime of her lord, deprives her husband of his life, and will go to hell. A good wife, who perseveres in a chaste life after the death of her lord, will go to heaven like (perpetual) students, even though she has no son.” – Visnusmrti 25:1-17.

Ibrahim says: as I said earlier you NEED to use your brains, failing which you will end up with the delusions that are based on bollywood stuff that hindu minds conjure.

Amitayus: it made her subservient to her husband in many matters.

*Ibrahim says; This is also an existing law from the beginning and it is vital for the harmony of the family unit. *

Amitayus: Again, who are you to force down your belief on women? By God’s decree I believe? Then I’m afraid this decree is unfair and unjust. In today’s world, nobody is subservient to any one, women have their own rights, dignity which cannot be suppressed by religious dogmas.

Ibrahim says; Hey pal, I am not forcing anything on you or anybody else so calm down and try to use that brains of yours. The law prescribed BY the Creator for woman are such and you have a choice, you can obey them or disobey them that is for you to account , when you will be held accountable for them. As to what is just and what is unjust, I believe you/we do not have sufficient wisdom at all to counter what the Creator had ordained.

The rights of woman are equal to the rights of man and both have been given varying roles and as per these roles their rights tend to differ that does not mean one has become undignified by observing them. As I wrote earlier stupendous people tend to believe they have become modern and do what they like But the wise know better and cannot follow the fools that may Think they have evolved as such Allah (swt) must also evolve with them.

*Ibrahim says; No the Prophet ( pbuh) did not design any laws He only reestablished the established laws that became corrupt due to people like you who decided that they knew better. And altered them so much so woman were looked down and treated with contempt. *

Amitayus: Who treats women with contempt?

Ibrahim says; Ask the hindus who know their scriptures as for people like you who have based their knowledge on DIY Hinduism, you would most likely claim that our Indian constitution says such and such as such, Hinduism has given woman their rights.

Amitayus: The mullahs, the fanatics of all religions (not only Islam) and not secular institution. Tons can be said is this regard but just visit one site http://www.rawa.org

Ibrahim says; You must be awfully naïve to believe a web site contains information that is based on its own agenda to spread falsehood against Islam as such, Islam looks down on woman? Earlier your claimed Islam was the only religion that gave woman her rights ages ago, now you try to claim that Islam looks down on woman??

Sheez! how deluded can you get? Maybe you think God should change his stance for every generation according to your whims and fancies?

*Ibrahim says; This was the same stupendous logic people used to alter the laws in the past so much so woman became the scorn of the community and eventually ended up as being treated like animals. *

Amitayus: Under theocracy, under fundamentalism, under religious dogma, women are treated as commodities. They’re not allowed to assert themselves, their voices are choked.

Ibrahim says; Don’t’ make a mockery of yourself. Woman and man are two separate creations of Allah with distinct roles. Their strengths vary and Allah (swt) knows best as to why He had given varying roles for them, it is not for stupendous people like you to alter it according to your whims and fancies. All these claims of their voices being choked is fantasy , what does prevail is that woman on account of their meekness do get abused more often and that has no bearing with religion.

And this is the very reason why they are told to cover themselves in the first place.

*Ibrahim says; Religion means a way of life! Only One religion was revealed to mankind hence Islam had existed from the beginning and got altered again and again so much so the other religions that are present today are actually deviations of Islam, hence they have been left to stray by Allah ( swt) who removed even His name from their memory because of their desire to alter his message. *

Amitayus: This is an endless argument. A Hindu will never agree with Islamic values, no matter how much you shout. You can go on crying n number of times that only Islam is God’s faith, rest others are bull, it won’t cut much ice with the non-Muslims. Just like if I constantly hum in your ears, Hinduism is the only true religion…blah blah blah

Ibrahim says; Get rational ! You have chosen to discount/dispute and disagree even before a valid argument is presented to you. Meaning you have established your boundary markers, that does not mean I am subject to those boundaries on my part I only need to present the TRUTH and it will cause you to stumble and evade or hide after spiting and spewing what you hide in your heart, and that is all I need to do. For Allah will record that the TRUTH was indeed revealed to you even at this time frame and you rejected it knowingly hence when you are sent to the place you deserve you will have no excuse against Allah (swt)

Amitayus: It is quite debatable who’s making fool of themselves. I frankly think you’re making fool of yourself which is quite apparent in your next posting.
Ibrahim says; Now why are you not capable enough to convey how so?

*Ibrahim earlier: This laws are still prevalent in India and a MUST for a Brahmin to adhere to. I already posted on this very thread what manu smrti represents for a Brahmin. Are you disputing it? *

Amitayus: You want to say India is still governed by Manu Smriti and Bramhins must adhere to it!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I’m stunned, I’m shocked, I’m struck by your liberal display of knowledge. So I take your knowledge on the Vedas with a pinch of salt. I’ll check your interpretation but judging by your knowledge, they’re wrong for certain.

Ibrahim says; pathetic isn’t it, you are certain even before checking and yet you have the nerve to laugh it off? My question was, are you disputing what manu smrti is in Hinduism? Don’t evade the Q, try to use your brains to answer them!

[Amitayus]

Sholay, either you didn't read my posts or you don't understand English.

I said

I repeat, Islam gave certain fundamental rights to women which were unthinkable in those days in the Arabian peninsula. But no point getting stuck at that level only. Am I clear?

Hinduism was prior to Islam, but it was practised in the Indian subcontinent and NOT in the Arabian peninsula. Hinduism was never practised all over the world just like Semiti religions were latecomers in India.

I didn't know you lack this elementary knowledge of history. So you could make such a ridiculous comparison.

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Amitayus: Hinduism was prior to Islam, but it was practised in the Indian subcontinent and NOT in the Arabian peninsula. Hinduism was never practised all over the world just like Semiti religions were latecomers in India.**

Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all,

Amitayus! Cannot blame you for your ignorance but the religion practiced by the Arabs prior to Islam being reestablished by the Prophet (pbuh) was the religion imported to India and practiced by the Brahmins. Brahmin basically means the followers of Brahma and Brahma was Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh). Due to corruption names, places and texts got altered just like Christianity now having it base in Rome when it was originating in Jerusalem and Prophet Eesa (pbuh) becoming Jesus the son of God and the texts being available only in Greek as its origin.

This can be proven by using current research in identifying where Brahma resided , which is written in the Artharva Veda. To understand this better try are read the thread “City of 9 gates is Makkah” at http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003320.html

There are numerous links to Arabs/Islam found in the Vedas and hindu scriptures that it is beyond doubt that what the Arabs were practicing was in fact what used to be Brahmanism some 1400 years ago but what remains of it as Hinduism today in India is obviously having additions that were added to it after the arrival of Islam .

Most of all wonder whose idols ( some 300 statues of gods) the Prophet (pbuh) had to destroy in the Ka’bah upon purification of the Ka’bah

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited August 08, 2001).]

[sholay]

Amitayus

Ibrahim has taken the words right out of my mouth.

What was being practiced in the Arabian penninsuala prior to Islam?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What was being practiced in the Indian Sub Continent?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What is being practiced in the Indian Sub Continent today?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What is an article of Faith in Hinduism?

IDOL WORSHIP!

Can you now see any similarities or are you still confused and baffled.

Like I said before, your response of ' what I meant/said was.........' was expected. Don't be alarmed. I get this all the time.

Look at any Idol Worshipping nation across the world and women are treated like animals. Whether they are the Aztec Indians, Aborigines or African Tribes people.

Hinduism is not any different.

A word of advice.

Before you go preaching about other peoples shortcomings, get to know whats happening in your own House!

[kumarakn]

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

rofl

Info about Islam in Vedas…Nice joke!

FYI, Vedas don’t care about Islam! Period! But you are free to believe whatever you want basd on soooo many hate sites available!

[kumarakn]

If status of women in Islam is so much hiher than other religions (idol worshipping ones - which by the by is a wrong statement) then why do some surveys reveal

Pakistani women are worse off the Indian women? Particularly after both of us started at the same point in 1947?

*India *
21. Gender-related development index

Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio, Female (%), 1999 view 49

Gender-related development index (GDI) Rank view 105

Gender-related development index (GDI) Value view 0.553

Life expectancy at birth (years), Female, 1999 view 63.3

Life expectancy at birth (years), Male, 1999 view 62.4

Adult literacy, Male rate (% age 15 and above), 1999 view 67.8

Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio, Male (%), 1999 view 62

Estimated earned income (PPP US$), Female, 1999 view 1,195 5

Estimated earned income (PPP US$), Male, 1999 view 3,236 5

HDI rank minus GDI rank view -1

Adult literacy, Female rate (% age 15 and above), 1999 view 44.5

*Pakistan *

1. Gender-related development index
   Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio, Female (%), 1999 view 28
   Gender-related development index (GDI) Rank view 117
   Gender-related development index (GDI) Value view 0.466
   Life expectancy at birth (years), Female, 1999 view 59.5
   Life expectancy at birth (years), Male, 1999 view 59.8
   Adult literacy, Male rate (% age 15 and above), 1999 view 58.9
   Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio, Male (%), 1999 view 51
   Estimated earned income (PPP US$), Female, 1999 view 826 3
   Estimated earned income (PPP US$), Male, 1999 view 2,787 3
   HDI rank minus GDI rank view -1
   Adult literacy, Female rate (% age 15 and above), 1999 view 30.0

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by kumarakn:
**

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

rofl

Info about Islam in Vedas…Nice joke!

FYI, Vedas don’t care about Islam! Period! But you are free to believe whatever you want basd on soooo many hate sites available!**

Ibrahim says: Ah huh? so you will keep lying and hope it will come true??

here go here and see if you can discount anything http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003320.html

IF you cannot than feel ashamed that you are a pitiful soul that has No sense what so ever.

[Amitayus]

Ahem, the thread is getting funnier and funnier. I’m getting drowned in the ocean of knowledge.

First take on Sholay…

*What was being practiced in the Arabian penninsuala prior to Islam?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What was being practiced in the Indian Sub Continent?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What is being practiced in the Indian Sub Continent today?

IDOL WORSHIP!

What is an article of Faith in Hinduism?

IDOL WORSHIP!*

That means the Arabs were dirty Yindoos just because they worshipped idols… Startling discovery indeed !!!

Say, the Zoarastrians worship fire and so do the Yindoos, so the Zoarastrians are Yindoos too!!

The Incas worshipped Sun and the Yindoos do that so the Incas are wretched Yindoos too!!!

This is what Sholay & Ibrahim-knows-all say.

Oh ye erudites, do ye know the definition of Hindus?

Say a Muslim is a person who obeys the 5 pillars of Islam.

What is the criterion? Idol worship?? Do ye know there are crores of Yindoos who do NOT believe in idol worship? They worship God as formless? Have you heard the name of Arya Samajis? Do you know Hinduism clearly outlines the concept of a formless dimensionless ever encompassing identity of the Almighty?

Please take a pen and pad and write down the definition of Hindus.

Hindus are people who believe in the Vedas and the Upanishads.
Whether they believe in idol worship or not is a matter of secondary importance.

A few relevant quotes..

“Ekam evadvitiyam”
“He is One only without a second.”
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]

“Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah.”
“Of Him there are neither parents nor lord.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]

“Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam.”

“His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]

You can bracket the Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc as pagans (or even kuffar) but putting them under the general bracket of Hinduism is foolish and smacks of your ignorance.

Now coming to Ibrahim

*Amitayus! Cannot blame you for your ignorance but the religion practiced by the Arabs prior to Islam being reestablished by the Prophet (pbuh) was the religion imported to India and practiced by the Brahmins. Brahmin basically means the followers of Brahma and Brahma was Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh). Due to corruption names, places and texts got altered just like Christianity…
*

There is no reference to Semiti religions in Hindu scriptures. It is just figment of imagination of some idiots and over-enthusiasts. One even claimed Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the Kalki Avtaar, the promised messiah and last Avtaar of Vishnu.

Brhama has nothing to do Abraham (PBUH), it means creator (Brahman). Brahma is one of the three concepts of trinity. Brahmin doesn’t mean follower of Bramha, it means one who has attained Bramhatwa, the supreme knowledge thro’ his Karma (and not by birth).
Aham Brahmasmi as narrated in the Vedas means I’m the totality.

but what remains of it as Hinduism today in India is obviously having additions that were added to it after the arrival of Islam .

Just rubbish. No doubt there has been distortions in Hinduism in the last millenium (in which religion it hasn’t) but the essence of Hinduism is still the same as it was 5000 years back. The customs can change, the interpretations can be distorted but the essence remains. Hinduism and Judeo-Christian religions are totally different traits.

BTW, I did enjoy your observations on Hinduism. Is this your original work or someone else’s pot induced hallucination?

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Amitayus:

Amitayus: That means the Arabs were dirty Yindoos just because they worshipped idols.... Startling discovery indeed !!!

Ibrahim says: So do you have a problem in understanding that all of mankind are coming from ONE creation and Allah the Creator gave mankind only ONE religion? The word hindu was a new coinage and the religion that hindus practice today originates from the middle east. In order to establish this fact try and find out how the hindus got the Vedas.

Amitayus: Say, the Zoarastrians worship fire and so do the Yindoos, so the Zoarastrians are Yindoos too!! The Incas worshipped Sun and the Yindoos do that so the Incas are wretched Yindoos too!!!

Ibrahim says; man you still don’t get it do you? The word Hinduism is of recent origin prior to it, it was known as Brahmanism and prior to it, it was known as Vedic religion ( a name they invented since they named it all together as Vedas based on its author veda vayasa)

Amitayus: This is what Sholay & Ibrahim-knows-all say.

Ibrahim says; I asked you earlier to show evidence for your incompetence But If you insist that you are an arrogant go right ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Amitayus: Oh ye erudites, do ye know the definition of Hindus?

Ibrahim says; Why not tell us because you will be able to get a noble prize for it since even your scholars cannot come up with one all these years.

Amitayus: Hindus are people who believe in the Vedas and the Upanishads.
Whether they believe in idol worship or not is a matter of secondary importance.

Ibrahim says; Wow! what a discovery, off course we cannot deny you your right to fool others can we? But get a life man,

Here read what your elders said

Dr. Radhakrishnan, ex-President of India and an eminent interpreter of Hinduism, as quoted in India: An Introduction by Khushwant Singh, New Delhi, 1990.

 [Hinduism is] "... a name without any content... Its content, if any, has altered from age to age, from community to community. It meant one thing in the Vedic period, another in the Brahmanical, a third in the Buddhist [1] - one to Saivite, another to Vaishnavite and Sakta."

(Dr. Radhakrishnan was the second President of independent India).

                 Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India, New Delhi, 1983, p.75. 

 "Hinduism, as a faith, is vague, amorphous, many-sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other."

(Pandit Nehru was the first Prime Minister of independent India during 1947-64).

                     M.K Gandhi, Hindu Dharma, New Delhi, 1991, p. 120. 

 "Hinduism does not rest on the authority of one book or one prophet, nor does it possess a common creed – like the Kalma [sic.] of Islam - acceptable to all. That renders a common definition of Hinduism a bit difficult."

(Mahatma Gandhi is known as the Father of the Nation, India).

Amitayus: Now coming to Ibrahim
Amitayus! Cannot blame you for your ignorance but the religion practiced by the Arabs prior to Islam being reestablished by the Prophet (pbuh) was the religion imported to India and practiced by the Brahmins. Brahmin basically means the followers of Brahma and Brahma was Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh). Due to corruption names, places and texts got altered just like Christianity...

Amitayus: There is no reference to Semiti religions in Hindu scriptures. It is just figment of imagination of some idiots and over-enthusiasts. One even claimed Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the Kalki Avtaar, the promised messiah and last Avtaar of Vishnu.

Ibrahim says; Do you have any capacity to verify your scriptures and talk or are you just fooling yourself like you did earlier when you claimed for sure that Vedas does not convey that woman are evil??

USE your head, it is OK to delude yourself but this is a forum, where you are trying to delude others too and that is rather silly for educated people to do. So many references have been given in earlier threads and here you are swallowing it all by claiming it is a figment of imagination! Are you not the IDIOT here??

Amitayus: Brhama has nothing to do Abraham (PBUH), it means creator (Brahman). Brahma is one of the three concepts of trinity. Brahmin doesn't mean follower of Bramha, it means one who has attained Bramhatwa, the supreme knowledge thro' his Karma (and not by birth). Aham Brahmasmi as narrated in the Vedas means I'm the totality.

Ibrahim says; Ahem, so you THINK you know something huh? Yet earlier you posted Brahman had No form, now you claim Brahma has a form and is part of a trinity, are you capable of making sense?

Again do you know Brahmins are by birth only and sudras can NEVER become Brahmins no matter what knowledge you/they may have?

Ibrahim earlier: but what remains of it as Hinduism today in India is obviously having additions that were added to it after the arrival of Islam .

Amitayus: Just rubbish. No doubt there has been distortions in Hinduism in the last millenium (in which religion it hasn't) but the essence of Hinduism is still the same as it was 5000 years back. The customs can change, the interpretations can be distorted but the essence remains.

Ibrahim says; ah huh? The essence has been the same huh? So tell us what is the essence of Hinduism? BTW read what your educated presidents said above, concerning the essence of Hinduism before you make a mockery of yourself.

Amitayus: Hinduism and Judeo-Christian religions are totally different traits.
Ibrahim says: Keep frolicking in your well, a person who has NO desire to learn cannot be expected to grow in wisdom can they?
Amitayus: BTW, I did enjoy your observations on Hinduism. Is this your original work or someone else's pot induced hallucination?

Ibrahim says; Now how is that a capable hindu like you was Not able to prove them as hallucinations? Maybe you left your brains in the trash can?

Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim

Never contend with a hindu who has NOTHING to lose.

[sholay]

Amitayus

On one hand you are now trying to state that there is only ONE god and cannot be seen.

"He is One only without a second."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."

And on the other hand, you are making your own figments of Imagination and transforming these figments into statues. You literally have a God for everything.

Furthermore who are the follwing according to Hindus: Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva! Please answer.

Be true to yourself and choose which side of the fence you are really sitting on.

As far as the definition of an Hindu is concerned, the following is a beautiful example:

'A Hindu is one of those blind-folded men who set about to examine an elephant by touching it and come up with totally different ideas about what the elephant looked like, none of which were factual'.

'Hindus have believed in every kind of theism, polytheism, and pantheism. They have worshipped any object which they prefer, or practically none. They followed any standard of morality or almost none'.

Whether you worship sun, sea, sand, moon or trees etc etc, still means that you are Idol Worshippers i.e. Pagans.

And it was the Pagans that treated women like animals!!!

[rvikz]

ibrahim you are forgetting nationality
race ethini identity and purely seeing everything through religen.religen cant replace nationalism .

[Amitayus]

Ibrahim says: So do you have a problem in understanding that all of mankind are coming from ONE creation and Allah the Creator gave mankind only ONE religion?

Quite obviously, this is what ONLY the Muslims believe. But why on earth would non-Muslims esp the non-Semitis believe in "La Illaha Illallah"? Isn't it forcing your belief on them? Sorry, we can never ever agree to it.

Ibrahim says; man you still don’t get it do you? The word Hinduism is of recent origin prior to it, it was known as Brahmanism and prior to it, it was known as Vedic religion ( a name they invented since they named it all together as Vedas based on its author veda vayasa) .

Agreed the word Hinduism was coined later (most prob from Sindhu), it is better to call it Vedic religion. Never ever it was known as Brahmanism. There is no single author Vedas, it is a amalgamation of thoughts of various sages.

Veda Vyas or full name Krishna Dwaipayan Veda Vyas was the author of the epic Mahabharat and is NOT the author of the Vedas. Who gave you this info anyway?

I gave a broad definition of Hindusim which the scholars and historians like Max Mueller and Romaince Rolland have given. Hinduism no doubt is a stream of n number of thought processes.

Ibrahim says; Do you have any capacity to verify your scriptures and talk or are you just fooling yourself like you did earlier when you claimed for sure that Vedas does not convey that woman are evil??

I repeat what I said earlier. This is just figment of imagination. People distort the interpretations and make their own conclusion.

Ibrahim says; Ahem, so you THINK you know something huh? Yet earlier you posted Brahman had No form, now you claim Brahma has a form and is part of a trinity, are you capable of making sense?

To understand that, you have to study the philosophy of Hinduism rather than having shallow superficial and wrong knowledge (like Veda Vyas the author of Vedas).

Again do you know Brahmins are by birth only and sudras can NEVER become Brahmins no matter what knowledge you/they may have?

Again depicts your hollowness. This is the later day distortion of Hinduism. FYI, the caste was based on a person's Karma (deeds) and not by birth.

Ibrahim says; ah huh? The essence has been the same huh? So tell us what is the essence of Hinduism? BTW read what your educated presidents said above, concerning the essence of Hinduism before you make a mockery of yourself.

You're going on spreading false propaganda. I think you've distorted a bit of JL Nehru's quotes. Most probably it is from "Discovery of India". If you're really interested to know Hinduism, you can study the writings of scholars who've worked on the subject. There are tons of materials available.

As you've asked me to highlight some aspects of Hinduism, it becomes obligatory on my part to do so. I resort to quotes of some famous personalities to remove your darkness.

"The unfolding of the human mind in the earliest stages of thought. And what a wonderful mind it was!." It is the first outpourings of the human mind, the glow of poetry, the rapture at nature's loveliness and mystery." A brooding spirit crept in gradually till the author of the Vedas cried out: 'O Faith, endow us with belief'. It raised deeper question in a hymn called the ' The Song of Creation'.
(Jawaharlal Nehru --- on the Vedas)

"Hinduism is a relentless pursuit of Truth. "Truth is God" and if today it has become moribund, inactive, irresponsive to growth, it is because we are fatigued; and as soon as the fatigue is over, Hinduism will burst upon the world with a brilliance perhaps unknown before.”
(Mahatma Gandhi)

"In the history of the world, Hinduism is the only religion, that exhibits a complete independence and freedom of the human mind, its full confidence in its own powers. Hinduism is freedom, especially the freedom in thinking about God."

(Dr. S Radhakrishnan)

"Hinduism.....gave itself no name, because it set itself no sectarian limits; it claimed no universal adhesion, asserted no sole infallible dogma, set up no single narrow path or gate of salvation; it was less a creed or cult than a continuously enlarging tradition of the God ward endeavor of the human spirit. An immense many-sided and many staged provision for a spiritual self-building and self-finding, it had some right to speak of itself by the only name it knew, the eternal religion, Santana Dharma...."
(Sri Aurobindo)

"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous."

(Albert Einstein)

"If I were to ask myself from what literature we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of the Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw the corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human a life...again I should point to India."
(Max Muller)

"What extracts from the Vedas I have read fall on me like the light of a higher and purer luminary, which describes a loftier course through purer stratum. It rises on me like the full moon after the stars have come out, wading through some far stratum in the sky."
(Henry David Thoreau)

" I am convinced that everything has come down to us from the banks of the Ganges, - astronomy, astrology, metempsychosis, etc."
(Voltaire)

It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology.
(Karl Sagan)

"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries."
(Robert Oppenheimer)

"Hinduism is greatly misunderstood in the West. Most occidentals do not realize that Hinduism is a monotheistic belief in only one God, who as Creator is beyond time, space and physical form. The entire pantheon of Hindu gods and goddesses are merely representations of different attributes of the One, Unmanifested Spirit. Hinduism created a different deity for each of God's numerous qualities to make God seem more real and approachable."
(Robert Arnett)

"Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws, moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach, but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West, but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief."

(Romain Rolland)

I think these are enough to start with. Study them carefully if you really want to learn the essence of Hinduism. However if your aim is only for a chest thumping session of my-religion-better-than-yours, then I've nothing to say. Continue with the delusion.

As I repeat further, Hinduism and Judeo-Christian traditions are totally separate. Please respect this distinction, do not try to shove down the truth as you understand on us. It will only result in bickerings and abuses.

Let us instead respect each others faith.

[This message has been edited by Amitayus (edited August 10, 2001).]

[Ibrahim]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Amitayus:

Ibrahim says: So do you have a problem in understanding that all of mankind are coming from ONE creation and Allah the Creator gave mankind only ONE religion?

Amitayus: Quite obviously, this is what ONLY the Muslims believe. But why on earth would non-Muslims esp the non-Semitis believe in “La Illaha Illallah”? Isn’t it forcing your belief on them? Sorry, we can never ever agree to it.

Ibrahim says; man where did you get the notion that One Creator was a Muslim idea, did you not just above stated that God/Allah was ONE without a form ?? when Allah is one how many religions do you expect Him to create?? Do you not know that all of mankind even in Hinduism was created from a single pair??

Ibrahim says; man you still don’t get it do you? The word Hinduism is of recent origin prior to it, it was known as Brahmanism and prior to it, it was known as Vedic religion ( a name they invented since they named it all together as Vedas based on its author veda vayasa) .

Amitayus: Agreed the word Hinduism was coined later (most prob from Sindhu), it is better to call it Vedic religion. Never ever it was known as Brahmanism. There is no single author Vedas, it is a amalgamation of thoughts of various sages.

Ibrahim says; You just like to delude yourself don’t you?? If it was NEVER ever called Brahmanism, where did that word come from , maybe you thought your ex president (read what I posted earlier) was deluded like you or shall we say you are the deluded soul here?

Brahmanism: religion of ancient India that evolved out of Vedism. It takes its name both from the predominant position of its priestly class, the Brahmans, and from the increasing speculation about, and importance given to, Brahman, the supreme power. Brahmanism is distinguished from the classical Hinduism that succeeded it by the enhanced significance given in classical Hinduism to individual deities, such as Shiva and Vishnu, and to devotional worship (bhakti).

Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica

Sheez , If there were no single authors for the Vedas , who authored it? Your claim that sages authored it comes from ??

Amitayus: Veda Vyas or full name Krishna Dwaipayan Veda Vyas was the author of the epic Mahabharat and is NOT the author of the Vedas. Who gave you this info anyway?

Ibrahim says; dealing with you guys is just disgusting when one has to teach you everything only to have you brush it a side and jump on to another angle such that you can hide your shame. Go and find out who wrote Vedas and come back with an answer , just in case you won’t get lost check the encyclopedia Britannica for what else Veda vayasa did before he authored the maharbaratha..

Let me help you since you will resort to lying or just evade the issue later on…READ!

Late in life, living in caves in the Himalayas, he is said to have divided the Vedas, composed Puranas, and, in a period of two and one-half years, composed his great poetic work, the Mahabharata, supposedly dictating it to his scribe, Ganesha, the elephant god.

Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica

Amitayus: I gave a broad definition of Hindusim which the scholars and historians like Max Mueller and Romaince Rolland have given. Hinduism no doubt is a stream of n number of thought processes.

Ibrahim says oh really and I suppose your broad definition was conclusive of the TRUTH about Hinduism?? Or was it another delusion of delusions with NO IDEA as to what Hinduism is all in one single context??

Ibrahim says; Do you have any capacity to verify your scriptures and talk or are you just fooling yourself like you did earlier when you claimed for sure that Vedas does not convey that woman are evil??

Amitayus: I repeat what I said earlier. This is just figment of imagination. People distort the interpretations and make their own conclusion.

Ibrahim says; sure you do? That’s about all you seem to be able to do, just repeat and keep laughing it of….without any shame or credibility for your utterances. .

Ibrahim says; Ahem, so you THINK you know something huh? Yet earlier you posted Brahman had No form, now you claim Brahma has a form and is part of a trinity, are you capable of making sense?

Amitayus: To understand that, you have to study the philosophy of Hinduism rather than having shallow superficial and wrong knowledge (like Veda Vyas the author of Vedas).

Ibrahim says; Am I the one having little knowledge about Hinduism or are you the joker who claimed Hinduism has No such texts much earlier concerning women in Hinduism?? That should be more than sufficient to determine who knows what. But never the less, tell us the philosophy behind how Brahman obtained a form when Brahman himself claimed He will HAVE NO FORM

Ibrahim earlier: Again do you know Brahmins are by birth only and sudras can NEVER become Brahmins no matter what knowledge you/they may have?

Amitayus: Again depicts your hollowness. This is the later day distortion of Hinduism. FYI, the caste was based on a person’s Karma (deeds) and not by birth.

Ibrahim says; man you are indeed shallow and hollow

Read!

** “By his very birth a Brahmin is a deity even for the gods and the only authority for people in this world, for the Veda is the foundation in this matter.” – Manusmrti 11:85.

“His (Purusa’s) mouth became the Brahmin; his arms were made into the Ksatriya, his thighs the Vaisya, and from his feet the Sudra was born.” – Rig Veda 10:90:12.**

** So either GROW UP or try not to deceive others with your incompetent views. **

Ibrahim says; ah huh? The essence has been the same huh? So tell us what is the essence of Hinduism? BTW read what your educated presidents said above, concerning the essence of Hinduism before you make a mockery of yourself.

Amitayus: You’re going on spreading false propaganda. I think you’ve distorted a bit of JL Nehru’s quotes. Most probably it is from “Discovery of India”. Please tell me the page #. If you’re really interested to know Hinduism, you can study the writings of scholars who’ve worked on the subject. There are tons of materials available.

Ibrahim says: Hey READ with your eyes and mind open and than THINK before writing nonsensical replies like this…. “Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India, New Delhi, 1983, p.75.” the page number was given BUT as we all know your ability to deceive is greater than your ability to comprehend .

Maybe you need to understand that just as you quoted some works by others without proper references or pages numbers let me quote more about Hinduism that is recorded in some books with page numbers .

Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, What Congress and Gandhi have done to Untouchables?

 “Hinduism is a veritable chamber of horrors. The sanctity and infallibility of the Vedas, Smritis and Shastras, the iron law of caste, the heartless law of karma and the senseless law of status by birth are to the Untouchables veritable instruments of torture which Hinduism has forged against untouchables. These very instruments which have mutilated; blasted and blighted the lives of the Untouchables are to be found intact and untarnished in the bosom of Gandhism."

(Dr. B. R. Ambedkar was the first Law Minister of independent India. He was the head of the committee that drafted the constitution of India, and he is known as the Father of Indian Constitution.).

Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178.

 "Frankly speaking, it is not possible to say definitely who is a Hindu and what is Hinduism. ** These questions have been considered again and again by eminent scholars, and so far no satisfactory answer has been given. Hinduism has within itself all types of religions such as theism, atheism, polytheism, Adwitism, Dwaitism, Saivism, Vaishnavism, and so forth. (emphasis added). It contains nature worship, ancestor  worship, animal worship, idol worship, demon worship, symbol worship, self worship, and the highest god worship. Its conflicting philosophies will confound any ordinary person. From barbarious practices and dark superstitions, up to the most mystic rites and sublime philosophies, there is place for all gradations and varieties in Hinduism. Similarly, among the Hindu population are found half barbarian wild tribes, and depressed classes and untouchables, along with small numbers of cultured, gentle natures and highly evolved souls."**

Khushwant Singh, India: An Introduction, New Delhi, 1990, p. 19.

 "Hinduism defies definition... It has no specific creed."

Ardersir Sorabjee as quoted in Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 178.

 "Their (Hindus') religion is a standing travesty of ancient Hinduism, consisting as it does of rank idolatry mixed with superstition and fetishism of the most degrading type. They believe in the worship of their innumerable devas or good spirits and the propitiation of an equally large number of demons and evil spirits, both of which they assume have their resting places on earth in their idols of stone and marble, gold and silver."

Sir Alfred Lyll as quoted in Modern Hinduism by Wilkins, London, 1975, p. 310.

 "... the religion of the non-Mohamedan [2] population of India is a tangled jungle of disorderly superstitions, ghosts and demons, demi-gods, and deified saints, household gods, local gods, tribal gals, universal gods, with their countless shrines and temples, and the din of their discordant rites; deities who abhor a fly's death; those who still delight in human sacrifices."

P. Thomas, Hindu Religion, Customs and Manners, p.21.

 "Hinduism is not a religion established by a single person. It is a growth of ideas, rituals and beliefs so      comprehensive as to include anything between atheism and pantheism. (emphasis added). Having grown out of the practices and speculations of various communities that were admitted into the Hindu fold at different times,  Hinduism, as it stands at present, has very few set of dogmas. A formal recognition of the Vedas as revealed wisdom is all that is required for a Hindu to be known as such. But the latitude permitted in interpreting the Vedas is so wide that the atheistic Sankhya philosophy of Kapila and the polytheism of the Puranas are both recognized as Orthodox."

Percival Spear, India: A Modern History, Michigan, 1961, p.40.

 "The more Hinduism is considered, the more difficult it becomes to define it in a single phrase... A Hindu may have any religious belief or none; he may be an atheist or an agnostic and still be an accepted Hindu... It is public opinion working through the caste system which determines whether someone shall or shall not be regarded as a Hindu."

The Economist, June 8, 1991, p. 22, col. l.

 "Hinduism is far more unstructured than most other religions. It has no archbishops, chief rabbis, grand muftis.  Each Hindu decides for himself which manifestations of God are most important to him, what scriptures to accept as authentic, which holy man to follow. The one ineluctable certainty is a person's dharma." 

Amitayus: I think these are enough to start with. Study them carefully if you really want to learn the essence of Hinduism. However if your aim is only for a chest thumping session of my-religion-better-than-yours, then I’ve nothing to say. Continue with the delusion.

Ibrahim says; Isn’t that a description of your works so far, you started with the clamor that you were sure Hinduism had been misrepresented But to date you have gone numb on that issue but trying very hard to deceive others with your shallow and hollow utterances which has no credibility.

Amitayus: As I repeat further, Hinduism and Judeo-Christian traditions are totally separate. Please respect this distinction, do not try to shove down the truth as you understand on us. It will only result in bickerings and abuses. Let us instead respect each others faith.

Ibrahim says; If you are shallow and have no desire to learn the truth that is your own folly BUT the claim that Hinduism is unique is utter nonsense and IF you have any commonsense in you THINK rationally and answer my earlier questions to you that you have evaded . The notion that ONE Creator without form gave rise to hundred of idols is down right folly that only the inhumane hindus are capable of creating and worshipping

Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim

Never contend with a hindu who has NOTHING to lose.

[Rani]

*The notion that ONE Creator without form gave rise to hundred of idols is down right folly that only the inhumane hindus are capable of creating and worshipping *

Why do u care in what form Hindus worship God..how is your form of worship is superior than the others. Being a decent human being is more important then worshipping God..I don't think u will understand this. You call others inhumane but fail to understand that dividing people according to their faith and discriminating against them is also extremely inhuman and intolerant.

No need to reply..i find it very difficult to read your lenthy diatribe...so long.