:salam2:
In islam we know that rights of men and women are clearly mentioned. No doubt other religions also talks about these rights. But what about ‘Eunuchs’ rights? Do they have any rights?
Please discuss. 
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
The quran does not explain rights of men and women but sets out formulas to go by for all people including men and women and all variations in between. The objective the quran sets out for mankind is accomplishing peace. In order to attain and maintain peace the quran sets out guidelines or terms and conditions for mankind to form society and laws by defining rights and responsibilities for individuals in society or community.
It is lack of conceptual and contextual understanding of the quran that we ended up with false reports attributed to the prophet and false laws in the name of islam in form of fiqh books. Mainly due to interference by mullahs appointed by emperors for their own benefits. They turned islam from deen into mazhab and invented many false ahadith and laws to suit themselves.
The quran gives mankind the framework to work within but not fully detailed things. It is therefore false to think the quran details everything in every way. Had that been the case there would not be need for hadith or fiqh. The very reason that hadith and fiqh exist proves the point. All we need to do is use the quran for its purpose and the hadith for its purpose and the fiqh for its purpose.
Hadith is all about how the prophet of God handled things within quranic framework he was given and fiqh is all about how ulema of islam handled things within the quranic framework.
The main difference is that prophet could not be expected to make any mistakes in delivering divine message but ulema could not be expected mistake proof.
The problem with hadith report is proving they are actually from the prophet but problem with fiqh laws is proving they are from the learned people of the ummah and that they are within quranic framework. Anything against the quran is unacceptable as an islamic concept or law or hadith.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
i have heard few people saying about 'Eunuchs' that we should stay away from them and supporting them is not right.
and i have also heard few people saying that their prays are never rejected and must avoid making them angry and should help them
Its very confusing, i dont know what religion says about them, should we or should we not help them
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
I am also interested to knw this, I hope someone here knws the answer. thanx for asking the question LK
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
@ equation - Maybe it does not matter what the Holy Books of any religion say about how to treat a class of people. In the end it comes down to humanity and fairness. Treat everyone the same.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
^ I dont disagree to what u said but the problem is how to deal with them, knowing they are not male nor female so being friend with them allowing them sit near like in bus or car, shaking hands with them, etc, etc, are these things permissible for male and females, what way we should deal with them from religious point. Treat them as if they are female or treat them as males. What right they have.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Ok. Cant answer from religious POV. But I don't get the " allowing them" part and your last sentence - what rights do they have?
We as a society probably should not have a mindset different categories of people have different rights.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
i have heard few people saying about 'Eunuchs' that we should stay away from them and supporting them is not right.
and i have also heard few people saying that their prays are never rejected and must avoid making them angry and should help them
Its very confusing, i dont know what religion says about them, should we or should we not help them
@ equation - Maybe it does not matter what the Holy Books of any religion say about how to treat a class of people. In the end it comes down to humanity and fairness. Treat everyone the same.
Dear friends, islam is not a religion but a divine set way of life based upon the quran as its constitution for people to set up a kingdom in accordance to it.
Since quran is all about peaceful and secure life for mankind therefore goal for mankind is set. As for guidelines that set out framework of islam (peaceful and secure existence of mankind) they are mainly freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of mankind.
The rest is left to mankind themselves to say or do as they please so long as the end result is the human society that is at peace.
Therefore rights and responsibilities of all people regardless of whatever gender, shape or form they are, are set out clearly. Unfortunately people have not educated themselves regarding islam so they take islam as any other religion and follow so called religious leaders. These people have separated islam into components dividing ummah into many sects on various nonsensical basis. Today they are stuck for explanations so mullaiyat and its concepts of islam are becoming exposed for what they really are but it will take yet more time for more people to come round. The message of the quran has yet to be understood properly by humanity.
The quran gives humanity a rule to judge their actions and that rule is keep an eye on the outcome of the actions. If outcome is good for human society keep going the same way otherwise stop where you are and change the course. This is what taubah is about and this is what istaghfaar is about ie taking actions to ensure peaceful and secure human existence. You go wrong way and become aware of it then you have no choice but to not to go any further to prevent any further damage and to retrace your steps and then find out the right way and get on with it. This way it is possible to overcome to a degree the damage that has been done due to wrong course of actions.
It should be clear as to how to form laws in islam about any people regardless men, women or any other sexually defined classification. People are people so they must be treated as such ie with equal respect and dignity as human beings.
Mullahs are root of all problem about islam because it is they who invented a lot of things in the name of islam on behest of their rulers. This is why they are responsible for breaking up ummah or muslim brotherhood turning people into masters and slaves of each other. Masses are also responsible for what is happening to them because they do not stop and think regarding what is happening to them, who has caused it and why? They keep going to same people for advise who are actually cause of the problem.
If people who face the problems studied the quran themselves and confronted mullahs and their backers things will get better very soon. This is why if rich are using islam against the poor, they should rise up by knowing what the quran actually says about things as concepts in its own proper contexts and likewise if men are using islam against women then they should rise up by learning the quran properly themselves. If muslims use quran against nonmuslims, they too should rise up and teach mullahs and their supporters a lesson that they never forget.
This is how islam can benefit mankind if they let it happen. Islam of kings is not real islam nor is of mullahs or of money lenders. Real islam is that which is in the quran and is clear if people learn to understand it properly. If they do not it is to their own loss. In that case they can keep on living in hell of their own making.
People will not benefit from the teachings of the quran unless they understand them and implement them and get the results the quran promises. Saying one thing and doing another is not going to produce the desired result. If we want a school we must build it. It is not going to happen all by itself. If we want food we must grow it. Doing nothing towards what we desire means things will not get done. This is how the quran guides people but people rather go and see some holly man and get things done the easy way. When they do not happen they blame God and scriptures instead of thinking what went wrong or why things did not happen the way they expected them to happen.
Without the quranic reference point humanity has no reference point for anything to decide what is freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress or prosperity therefore people can never end up in peaceful and secure life. Unfortunately masses do not realise this point. When they do they will have to come to the quran. This is why quran must be spread, learned and taught because quran is manifesto of peace. Once people realise the real message of the quran they will come to realise that quran is a constitution for a peaceful and secure human society.
We will have to wait till we have learned the quran and we will never learn it till we see the need for learning it. Till then people will keep on throwing mud on islam and quran because they are ignorant.
regards and all the best.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Ok. Cant answer from religious POV. But I don't get the " allowing them" part and your last sentence - what rights do they have?
We as a society probably should not have a mindset different categories of people have different rights.
What i mean to say was usually buses we have separate portion of men and women. when these people get aboard they are not allowed to enter any section they just hang near the door, main reason is women dont allow them to even stand near stating that they are half man, and when they go to men section every man avoids sitting beside them (kind of feeling shameful).
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Dear friends, islam is not a religion but a divine set way of life based upon the quran as its constitution for people to set up a kingdom in accordance to it.
Since quran is all about peaceful and secure life for mankind therefore goal for mankind is set. As for guidelines that set out framework of islam (peaceful and secure existence of mankind) they are mainly freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of mankind.
The rest is left to mankind themselves to say or do as they please so long as the end result is the human society that is at peace.
Therefore rights and responsibilities of all people regardless of whatever gender, shape or form they are, are set out clearly. Unfortunately people have not educated themselves regarding islam so they take islam as any other religion and follow so called religious leaders. These people have separated islam into components dividing ummah into many sects on various nonsensical basis. Today they are stuck for explanations so mullaiyat and its concepts of islam are becoming exposed for what they really are but it will take yet more time for more people to come round. The message of the quran has yet to be understood properly by humanity.
The quran gives humanity a rule to judge their actions and that rule is keep an eye on the outcome of the actions. If outcome is good for human society keep going the same way otherwise stop where you are and change the course. This is what taubah is about and this is what istaghfaar is about ie taking actions to ensure peaceful and secure human existence. You go wrong way and become aware of it then you have no choice but to not to go any further to prevent any further damage and to retrace your steps and then find out the right way and get on with it. This way it is possible to overcome to a degree the damage that has been done due to wrong course of actions.
It should be clear as to how to form laws in islam about any people regardless men, women or any other sexually defined classification. People are people so they must be treated as such ie with equal respect and dignity as human beings.
Mullahs are root of all problem about islam because it is they who invented a lot of things in the name of islam on behest of their rulers. This is why they are responsible for breaking up ummah or muslim brotherhood turning people into masters and slaves of each other. Masses are also responsible for what is happening to them because they do not stop and think regarding what is happening to them, who has caused it and why? They keep going to same people for advise who are actually cause of the problem.
If people who face the problems studied the quran themselves and confronted mullahs and their backers things will get better very soon. This is why if rich are using islam against the poor, they should rise up by knowing what the quran actually says about things as concepts in its own proper contexts and likewise if men are using islam against women then they should rise up by learning the quran properly themselves. If muslims use quran against nonmuslims, they too should rise up and teach mullahs and their supporters a lesson that they never forget.
This is how islam can benefit mankind if they let it happen. Islam of kings is not real islam nor is of mullahs or of money lenders. Real islam is that which is in the quran and is clear if people learn to understand it properly. If they do not it is to their own loss. In that case they can keep on living in hell of their own making.
People will not benefit from the teachings of the quran unless they understand them and implement them and get the results the quran promises. Saying one thing and doing another is not going to produce the desired result. If we want a school we must build it. It is not going to happen all by itself. If we want food we must grow it. Doing nothing towards what we desire means things will not get done. This is how the quran guides people but people rather go and see some holly man and get things done the easy way. When they do not happen they blame God and scriptures instead of thinking what went wrong or why things did not happen the way they expected them to happen.
Without the quranic reference point humanity has no reference point for anything to decide what is freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress or prosperity therefore people can never end up in peaceful and secure life. Unfortunately masses do not realise this point. When they do they will have to come to the quran. This is why quran must be spread, learned and taught because quran is manifesto of peace. Once people realise the real message of the quran they will come to realise that quran is a constitution for a peaceful and secure human society.
We will have to wait till we have learned the quran and we will never learn it till we see the need for learning it. Till then people will keep on throwing mud on islam and quran because they are ignorant.
regards and all the best.
Wonderful post.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
What i mean to say was usually buses we have separate portion of men and women. when these people get aboard they are not allowed to enter any section they just hang near the door, main reason is women dont allow them to even stand near stating that they are half man, and when they go to men section every man avoids sitting beside them (kind of feeling shameful).
OK. That is wrong, plain wrong. Maybe next time you can offer them a seat next to you if empty. Or say hello to them. That is do your part to make them comfortable.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
What i mean to say was usually buses we have separate portion of men and women. when these people get aboard they are not allowed to enter any section they just hang near the door, main reason is women dont allow them to even stand near stating that they are half man, and when they go to men section every man avoids sitting beside them (kind of feeling shameful).
They probably should be regarded as they portray themselves. *Appearance or their language is more important. *
If they have sexual desires or know about it then they are considered as close to 'normal' as anyone can guess.
If they are completely asexual or have no desire then it might be OK to not use pardah with them.
Now in general public it will not be possible if they are sexual or not, so regard them as sexual to be on safer side and treat them as normal.
People should not feel shamful for sitting by them in public transport however.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Peace All,
I agree with the post #5 of Southie that every1 should be treated as same. From the history, eunuchs were valued in guarding women because of their presumed lack of virility, and more important, in administratin and governance because of their inability to develop kin-based interests. There was no clear Sharia argument forbidding ownership of eunuchs, though there are hadiths wherein the Prophet 
orders his wives to maintain seclusion from eunuchs after He hears one describing a woman’s body in detail to a potential suitor *1. There are many different of opinions, however, what glorious Qur’an and Hadith says are as under:-
**Al-Quran [24:31]
**
**“**And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.”
**Book ‘Clothing (Kitab Al-Libas)’ of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Hadith No. **4095.
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: A mukhannath (eunuch) used to enter upon the wives of Prophet . They (the people) counted him among those who were free of physical needs. One day the Prophet entered upon us when he was with one of his wives, and was describing the qualities of a woman, saying: When she comes forward, she comes forward with four (folds in her stomach), and when she goes backward, she goes backward with eight (folds in her stomach). The Prophet said: Do I not see that this (man) knows what here lies. Then they (the wives) observed veil from him.
**Book ‘The Book on Salutations and Greetings (Kitab As-Salam)’ of Sahih Muslim, Hadith No. **5415.
**Umm Salama reported that she had a eunuch (as a slave) in her house. Allah’s Messenger was once in the house that he (the eunuch) said to the brother of Umm Salama: Abdullahb. Aba Umayya. if Allah grants you victory in Ta’if on the next day, I will show you the daughter of Ghailan for she has four folds (upon her body) on the front side of her stomach and eight folds on the back. Allah’s Messenger heard this and he said: Such (people) should not visit you.
**
**Hadith No. **5416
**'A’isha reported that a eunuch used to come to the wives of Allah’s Apostle and they did not And anything objectionable in his visit considering him to be a male without any sexual desire. Allah’s Apostle one day came as he was sitting with some of his wives and he was busy in describing the bodily characteristics of a lady and saying: As the comes in front tour folds appear on her front side and as she turns her back eight folds appear on the back side. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: I me that he knows these things; do not, therefore, allow him to cater. She (" A’isha) said: Then they began to observe veil from him.
**
The explanation of above verse and hadiths given by Ibn Kathir is as under:- “Tabi’in” among men who do not have desire, such as hired servants and followers who are not at the same level as the woman and are feeble-minded and have no interest in or desire for women.
Ibn Abbas said: “This kind of person who has no desire.” Ikrimah said: “This is the hermaphrodite, who does not experience erections”. This was also the view of other among the Salaf.
It was narrated in the Sahih from Aisha r.a. that a hermaphrodite, used to enter upon the family of the Messenger of Allah and they used to consider him as one of those who don’t have desire, but then the Messenger of Allah came in when he was describing a woman with four rolls of fat in front and eight behind. The Messenger of Allah said: “Lo! I think this person knows what is they are; he should never enter upon you. He expelled him, and he stayed in Al-Bayda’ and only came on Friday to get food”.
Almighty Allah knows best.
*1 Source: Michael Winter, Egyptian Society Under Ottoman Rule, 1517-1798 (London, 1992), P.43.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
^^ hmm this means that female should keep distance from them and avoid any kind of physical contact with them, but what about males??
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
what about the barbaric practice of making eunuchs ? castarating young boys and making them servents
it was carried out for a long time in muslim countries
Is that legal ?
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
The famous castration was that of Ghulam Qadir Rohilla by Rangeela Shah. Later Ghulam Qadir Rohilla conquered Delhi and took out the eyes of the Mughal Emperor!
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
The quran does not explain rights of men and women but sets out formulas to go by for all people including men and women and all variations in between. The objective the quran sets out for mankind is accomplishing peace. In order to attain and maintain peace the quran sets out guidelines or terms and conditions for mankind to form society and laws by defining rights and responsibilities for individuals in society or community.
It is lack of conceptual and contextual understanding of the quran that we ended up with false reports attributed to the prophet and false laws in the name of islam in form of fiqh books. Mainly due to interference by mullahs appointed by emperors for their own benefits. They turned islam from deen into mazhab and invented many false ahadith and laws to suit themselves.
The quran gives mankind the framework to work within but not fully detailed things. It is therefore false to think the quran details everything in every way. Had that been the case there would not be need for hadith or fiqh. The very reason that hadith and fiqh exist proves the point. All we need to do is use the quran for its purpose and the hadith for its purpose and the fiqh for its purpose.
Hadith is all about how the prophet of God handled things within quranic framework he was given and fiqh is all about how ulema of islam handled things within the quranic framework.
The main difference is that prophet could not be expected to make any mistakes in delivering divine message but ulema could not be expected mistake proof.
The problem with hadith report is proving they are actually from the prophet but problem with fiqh laws is proving they are from the learned people of the ummah and that they are within quranic framework. Anything against the quran is unacceptable as an islamic concept or law or hadith.
this is a very valuable post, thanks so much for sharing this Mughal. For the first time I have been able to understand a clear difference between Quran, hadith and Fikh...
JazakAllah
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Peace Das Reich,
I think it is no longer legal likewise slavery is illegal.
In 1715, an Ottoman edict sent to Egypt - source of most of the empire’s eunuchs - forbade the castration of yourng men, calling it inhumane, contrary to the Shari’a and the sultan’s orders. Thre is no clear shari’a argument forbidding ownership of enunchs, only their manufactures.
The prohibition of castration was universally maintained by Muslim legal thinkers, and the problem of eunuchs was handled in much the same fashion as the problem of illegal enslavement.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
this is a very valuable post, thanks so much for sharing this Mughal. For the first time I have been able to understand a clear difference between Quran, hadith and Fikh...
JazakAllah
Peace Chicken Biryani
I don't mean to be a trouble maker ... But please aware of this explanation by Mughal1 ... There are some issues with it despite it sounding convincing. InshaAllah I'll start up another thread on this ... As you can see he has not even attempted to answer the thread question.
Re: Status of Eunuchs In Various Religion
Peace All,
I second that :) I found 'not even close' to the answer related to this thread. :)