[Split Thread] The Joint Family System

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Want to move out

As for the OP, I’d say moving out is a bit extreme, where you would end up with a lot of unexpected issues. Obviously it’s not what they want and I doubt it’s what you really want either. As Muzna said, you should just better communicate with them.

@notthatguy

You are comparing 2 different worlds that’s why that thinking doesn’t apply. Here we are talking about moving out of the parent’s once you feel like you are financially secure enough to gain freedom and do what you want. The scenario you describe is that of a man leaving not only his parents, but also his wife, kids, and country so that those he’s leaving behind wont starve to death…see the difference=moving out because i want freedom and now i can afford to vs moving out because I don’t want my family to starve to death slight difference I would say. My father moved out and lived by himself for 25 years and did all his own cooking and cleaning and he didn’t do it to gain freedom, he did it so 1. His father can retire and start working his butt off and stay home 2. So we wouldn’t starve. Paheeli I doubt the relatives you refer to lived on their own seeking autonomy.

Do you really think there’s an issue of the families starving if the men are able to afford to travel abroad, particularly for studies?

@notthatguy

Islam does not support a joint family system as it exists in Paki households. Where there is no Parda from ghair mahram men and everyone hangs out together. However, it is not correct to say that Islam does not support the joint family system, because as as long as you keep you parda it is o.k.

The problems with our joint family systems aren’t limited to pardah. I’ve even seen writings of ulema saying that the rights of the daughter-in-laws in these situations are often trampled. In the subcontinent, customs where the DIL is essentially made a slave to the entire household have been adopted even by Muslims. According to Islam, she’s isn’t even required to serve her in-laws.

I live with my parents, my wife/kids–and my brother who is also married with kids. I have never seen my Phabis hair-our conversation begins with Salaam and ends with Wa salaam..My brother and I both have keys to the house but we never use them because we have to ring the bell/or knock and wait for everyone to be ready for us (put on hijab-cover up etc) and then open the door for us. The kitchen has a separate curtain on it and I can’t go there without knocking and getting clearance. While we are at work, our wives hang out with our mom/dad//and when we come back we separate in to our sections. The no joint family thing is more of an arab thing than an Islamic thing, but it’s true that the way it exists in desi families is definitely not allowed.

I have lived with a similar arrangement, but decided to move out for everyone’s benefit. I still see my parents almost every day. Our family is still very close. I’ve also encouraged several newly married friends to get separate accommodation if they could afford it once married for the following reasons:

Less pressure on the wife–she can and should be free in her own place and not feel constrained by other peoples’ routines (apart from husband’s or her kids)

Double standards between parents and their children – for the children, they don’t think twice about this stuff but their wives have a hard time with it

Pulling others’ weight – sometimes the work of the household isn’t distribute work equally, and there are often double standards with this, and this ends up being an unfair arragement to someone

So a lot of things like these could happen, which will leave people bitter towards each other. I’d say it’s much better to live separately to avoid all this rather than stay together and keep building up tension. What I’ve also see (well technically heard of) is where the in-laws bully the wife and interfere too much in the husband and wife . So there I’d say a guy is dumb for not moving out if there isn’t a dire reason not to.

Living separately is the right of the wife but remember if you are going to use Islam as an excuse then remember that Hazrat Aisha had 1 room and it was so small that Prophet SAW would have to ask her to move while reading tahajjud so he can make sajda. So those women who want to use Islam as a reason to separate, then please also accept something similar to Hardhat Aisha’s room.

The separate accommodation is a right of the wife. The husband has to fulfill it according to his ability. So if he’s providing his parents with the latest car, appliances etc. and makes his wife settle for a small room, then that isn’t appropriate either.

Also if joint family system was not allowed in Islam then we wouldn’t have this famous hadith..
read this hadith and tell me if the son was living with the parents or using skype to check up on them..

Allah’s Apostle said, "While three persons were traveling, they were overtaken by rain and they took shelter in a cave in a mountain. A big rock fell from the mountain over the mouth of the cave and blocked it. They said to each other. 'Think of such good (righteous) deeds which, you did for Allah’s sake only, and invoke Allah by giving reference to those deeds so that Allah may relieve you from your difficulty. one of them said, 'O Allah! I had my parents who were very old and I had small children for whose sake I used to work as a shepherd. When I returned to them at night and milked (the sheep), I used to start giving the milk to my parents first before giving to my children. And one day I went far away in search of a grazing place (for my sheep), and didn’t return home till late at night and found that my parents had slept. I milked (my livestock) as usual and brought the milk vessel and stood at their heads, and I disliked to wake them up from their sleep, and I also disliked to give the milk to my children before my parents though my children were crying (from hunger) at my feet.
So this state of mine and theirs continued till the day dawned. (O Allah!) If you considered that I had done that only for seeking Your pleasure, then please let there be an opening through which we can see the sky.’ So Allah made for them an opening through which they could see the sky.

I am going to take a guess here and say that the man lived with his wife and kids with his parents.

I’m not an aalim, but I’ve heard this brought up in talks by ulema. I’ve never once heard them say that a man should live in a joint family. However, it has been used to talk about sincerity of intention and showing respect to parents. I’ve heard ulema themselves encouraging separate living.

Here are more for fun..I think “dutiful” goes beyond calling them on EId.

I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, “The owner of this house.” he pointed to 'Abdullah’s house, “said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?” He replied, ‘To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.’ " 'Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, “To be good and dutiful to one’s parents,” 'Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah’s Cause." 'Abdullah added, “The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more.”

Allah’s Apostle said thrice, “Shall I not inform you of the biggest of the great sins?” We said, “Yes, O Allah’s Apostle” He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah: to be undutiful to one’s parents.

Sure, but moving out to live separately with your family (i.e. wife, kids) isn’t automatically equal to being undutiful to parents.

@Paheli00

What is the lesson here? That in Islam, its better to keep small children crying throughout the night and force them to stay hungry (even when we have food to feed them) rather than wake up another adult from their sleep?

In the context he brought it up, I guess it’s that the joint family system isn’t an entirely alien concept in Islam.