Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Just to minimize confusion, anyone want to write in simple language, where it was said in islam (Quran and clear hadith) to cover the face of a woman?
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
I have firm belief and i hope you have to that the first source of information is Quran not Haadith, if you can not find something in Quran then sure you can consult Haadith. But when a verdict is already in Quran, then brining haadith will not change it, you like it or not.
How can you cover bosom? Lets say wear cloak, but again not face covering. Oki lets talk about Khimar, what it is, i already gave answer to this in same thread, check here:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318495-greatest-scholar-javed-ghamdi-salute-2.html#post6460789
Clarification, all of my reply’s are based on Quran Verses, i didn’t touch any haadith yet, because i don’t need too-yet. Now what is first source of information & law for you, Quran or Haadith 
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Just to minimize confusion, anyone want to write in simple language, where it was said in islam (Quran and clear hadith) to cover the face of a woman?
Its no where in Quran, according to my information, but its in haadith, now i wanted to make sure are those haadith authenticated or vague, ... !
Face covering is most likely part of Arab trible culture, Wallah o Alam !
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Lets clear two things,
**Khimar **](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318495-greatest-scholar-javed-ghamdi-salute-2.html#post6460789)according to Arabic Language it only means: head covering.
Juyubihinna](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/318495-greatest-scholar-javed-ghamdi-salute-2.html#post6458501), 17 interpretations but only one talk about: coverig neck, hands & face, rest all say bosoms or chest only.
Your argument is based on what early scholars are saying, again i disagree with this notion of yours too. So early scholars talk about a lot of things which we used today should be in haram line, tv, internet, scientific search, issues like haadith & qurani verses in Biology books… ..etc..etc… its a never ending trait.
First find me any reference in the history of Arabic Language where “Juyubihinna” means something else rather then bosom/cleverage/chest, and lets again go back to the roots for the meaning of Khimar, find me the true meaning of it. 
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Surely, like you said, Quran comes first and then Hadith. I must add, at times hadith is needed to understand the Quran like Prophet :saw: understood it.
I think we both agree that face covering is not fard. It is optional. However, head covering and covering of bosoms is a requirement. Most importantly let us not forget, men have the first obligation not to stare and lower the gaze.
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
It is, but not for the clear verdicts.
Agreed, :k:
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Isn’t this interesting that even when translating 033:059 (Surah Ahzab) Hilali Khan goes on to include almost everything but eyes to translate “jalabeebihinna” and others did not.
Asad went on and made it as if it was time-based/situation-based recommendation.
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
I know your definition of classical scholars is different than ours because we both live in a different world. According to your greatest scholar, women don't even need to cover their heard. But for the sake of argument, go search in the heritage of the Salaf; you'll find an answer.
I don't think that they argue on the word khimaar; they use the word juyubihinna and they appeal to practice of shabiyaat and how they understood or acted after hearing to these ayaat. Whatever the case is, there's a difference of opinion among scholars on this issue, and niqab view has understanding of early and classical scholars in its favour + what I mentioned a sentence ago.
don't get worked over sister, my statment was general (a reminder) and I was only pointing out that scholars differed over this issue. If I were a girl, I would wear it before telling others. The Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salam) has told us to stay away from grey area because it leads to haram. It was only a reminder: nothing more, nothing less.
Reminder? You don't need to remind me, seriously. I know my religion. You're not an authority over me....go and remind your own wife or daughter. I don't follow your "scholars" who say its wajib to wear burqa in West or anywhere. People should give advice in a certain way not going around and telling other women what to wear.... one of the best part of Islam is to not concern yourself with matters that do not concern you. Understand?
Firenze good points.
Its forbidden to cover face during salaat and hajj and that tells us a lot about face covering being obligation or not.
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
[quote="hareem01, post:19, topic:198158"]
...
Firenze good points.
Its forbidden to cover face during salaat and hajj and that tells us a lot about face covering being obligation or not./QUOTE]
excellent point, one that i have told to numerous girls/women around me and Alhumdolillah some of them have altered their hijab methods.
Re: Greatest Scholar Javed Ghamdi : Salute
Peace Brother,
I understand your & Crescent points, but neither normal Muslim's have enough time, brain & will power to start going to the roots of Arabic language.
One question arose from this discussion, what will we call today's Islam then, because it is all translation & translation (ex. as i provide 17 different interpertation of one word), maybe if we go back to the roots, it will be totally something else. Its better to leave something, where it is right now.
Peace firenze
Precisely the question I asked myself. It is quite straight forward. Tafsir is essential but not for us ... for scholars. We as laymen approach shcolars of repute and solid tradition. This will help mitigate the risks in being wrong and will help shift some of the burden on those who have been chosen to lead us in such matters.
In their circles scholars will be looking in to many tafsir and they will look into the adab of the language, they will look at the sira of the verses revealed and they will look at how those verses were taken and implemented.
Some scholars will select the stringent interpretations others may select the less stringent ones, and other scholars further will apply both in different settings according to the maturity of the scoiety they have appointment over.
According to many scholars wajib for example is like a fard in that if it is not done then sin is gained for that. The covering of the face is not therefore accepted as wajib, because of the instance in the ihram for women. However, some scholars have gone further to say although the face cannot be touching cloth, it can still be covered, so some women are made to wear beaks over which the veil sits. This is an interpretation based on the reconciliation of niqab and ihram, but other scholars do not go to this extent.
Today's Islam although it resides as translation and interpretation it does not remove the need for us to learn Arabic at least to be able to recite it for prayer. Meaning and depth do come in time and they aught to. Some scholars do consider the learning of Arabic a necessary, because it leads to greater understanding and unites peoples of that language. Verily, in Shari'ah it is always legislated that in schooling environments Arabic is taught by mandate.
It is one of those languages that is easy to learn takes a life time to master, and when it comes to the Qur'an there is no level of mastery that can enable us to understand it for implementation, except that we utilise the Arabic tafsir unadulterated.
... oh and that we are blessed with the gifts of fear of Allah and guidance.
[Split]Obligation of proper dressing in Islam
[note]Thread split to give the subject more focus while keeping the original topic intact as a separate thread. Thanks, and please carry on.[/note]
Re: [Split]Obligation of proper dressing in Islam
Well, even tafseers make people confused and hence so many schools of thoughts.
Religious belief is not simple mathematics and essence **of any particular advice needs to be taken and **not literally and what could be a great example as covering or not covering face!
if it is not clearly said in Quran to cover face of woman then its not. If Allah really wanted billions of women to cover their faces in public, a simple word of 'face' in arabic would have been said in Quran.
And individual person or group are more than welcome to do that. But they should not tell others to follow their understanding.
The face of a person makes the person identified and is necessary to be revealed. Man or woman.
People have taken everything to extreme. Even voice of a woman is considered bad by these extremists! ( I know there is a woman 'Aalimah' who asks for speakers to be turned off where men are present. Great!
Its not like no one mahram or na-mahram had heard so many pious women of early time.
Re: [Split]Obligation of proper dressing in Islam
Actually as far as I'm concerned the fact that it is forbidden to cover your face during hajj is taken as a proof that the niqab is farz. Another thing is that the hadeeth the OP mentioned has been "changed"(well that is what I've been told by a girl who went to a madrassah in UK) originally it was "hands and feet" instead of "hands and face". Additionally to that I've heard that one can actually cover the face during the state of ikhram, just the niqab isn't supposed to stick tightly to the face, thus they sell hats there which have an attached veil that doesn't touch your face but hangs loose in front of it.
As I said those were things someone said to me and I'm not forcing anyone to believe them.
Re: [Split]Obligation of proper dressing in Islam
[FONT=Calisto MT]It is not befitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle, to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong path. (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:36)
#yiv154421998 #yiv1153377338 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv154421998 #yiv1153377338 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;[size=6]QURAN COMMANDMENT ON PURDA IS SENT NOT FOR JOKE.
[/size][FONT=Calisto MT]Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty that will make for purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should not display their beauty andornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof, that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hand posses, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you believers! Turn all toward Allah that you may attain in bliss."
*If you think Hijab is an act of submission, you are right! It is a way to submit to God. Like any other act of worship, the rewards of Hijab come only when it is done for Allah alone.
*
From remote villages to cosmopolitan mega cities, women all across the world, from every ethnic background, wear Hijab. Do all of these women cling to old cultural practices? Hijab, the internal and external aspects, take understanding, training and determination. Since the purpose of Hijab is to please Allah,[size=6] [size=5]doing it for tradition is wrong.[/size][/size]
**
**
*Hijab is a 'challenge to the political system' *
While Hijab may have political implications, as evident in the banning of Hijab in certain countries, Muslim women who choose to practice Hijab are not doing it to challenge the political system. Islam encourages men and women to observe modesty in private and public life. Hijab is an individual's act of faith and religious expression.
I am liberated from slavery to 'physical perfection'
Society makes women desire to become 'perfect objects'. The multitudes of alluring fashion magazines** and cosmetic surgeries show women's enslavement to beauty. The entertainment industry pressures teens to believe that for clothes, less is better. When we wear Hijab, we vow to liberate ourselves from such desires and serve only God.**
I don't let others judge me by my hair and curves! **
**In schools and professional environments, women are often judged by their looks or bodies-characteristics they neither chose nor created. Hijab forces society to judge women for their value as human beings, with intellect, principles, and feelings. A woman in Hijab sends a message, "Deal with my brain, not my body!"
I feel empowered and confident
In contrast to today's teenage culture, where anorexia and suicide are on the rise, as women attempt to reach an unattainable ideal of beauty, Hijab frees a woman from the pressure to 'fit in'. She does not have to worry about wearing the right kind of jeans or the right shade of eyeshadow. She can feel secure about her appearance because she cares to please only Allah.
I feel the bond of unity
Hijab identifies us as Muslims and encourages other Muslim sisters to greet us with the salutation of peace, "Assalamu Alaikum". Hijab draws others to us and immerses us in good company.
In some Arabic-speaking countries and Western countries, the word hijab primarily refers to women's head and body covering, but in Islamic scholarship, hijab is given the wider meaning of modesty, privacy, and morality. The word used in the Qur'an for a headscarf or veil is khimār.
**'Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves)
a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'
(Qur'an 33:58-59)**
**Proper Hijab means loose and opaque clothes. Clothes should not be alluring or similar to the clothing of men. What about guys? Islam outlines a modest dress code for men and women. The requirements are different based on the obvious physiological and psychological differences between the two genders.**
****Hijab does not apply only to clothes. It is a state of mind, behaviour, and lifestyle. Hijab celebrates a desirable quality called Haya (modesty), a deep concern for preserving one's dignity. Haya is a natural feeling that brings us pain at the very idea of committing a wrong..*
****The Prophet (s.a.w.) said:
"Every religion has a distinct call. For Islam it is Haya (modesty)." *
**[FONT=Calisto MT]Since nothing but what is apparent may be shown (i.e. hands and face) the garment must be thick enough so that we cannot see the color of the skin it covers or the shape of the body. Once the Prophet (pbuh) saw Asma, the daughter of Abu Bakr, visiting Aishah while Asma was wearing a dress that was not thick enough. [size=6]He turned his face away in anger and said:[/size]**
[FONT=Calisto MT]"If the woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen, but this," and he pointed to his face and his hands. Another time when the Prophet (pbuh) saw a bride wearing a thin dress, he said, [size=6]"She is not a woman who believes in Surat-un Nur who wears this." He also described the future condition of the Ummah which would be straying from the injunction of the Islamic dress code. "In later (generations) of my Ummah there will be women who will be dressed but naked on top of heads (what looks)like camel humps. Curse them for they am truly cursed."[/size]
[FONT=Calisto MT]Additional Recquirements
1)The female costume may NOT resemble the male costume. ** *[FONT=Calisto MT]2)The dress may not BE represen tative of the costume of the NON- BELIEVERS.
*
*[FONT=Calisto MT]3)The dress may NOT show fame, pride, and vanity, i.e. the dress STATUS SYMBOL.
*
**[FONT=Calisto MT]The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Whoever wears a dress of fame in this world, Allah will clothe him with a dress of humiliation on the Day of Resurrection, then set it afire. "
Re: [Split]Obligation of proper dressing in Islam
i have noted that i sent the above matter earlier also after4 days i saw it is removed is the moderator partial with pakistan and indian citizens hope he is not.will keep the matter sent again for the spreading of knowledge for others.
far as i know face isnt wajib.
however those who do practise it shouldnt be ridiculed because they are beign extra cautious.