[Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

Look man, the reason why Karachi has the highest concentration of ethnic population is because the rest of Sindh province doesn’t offer any geographical and socio-economic mobility. Opportunities and urban living is just restricted to one big City. In Punjab you don’t have such problem. Locals and outsiders enjoy the highest rate of socio-economic and geographical mobility in Punjab than anywhere else in Pakistan. People are constantly moving around within the province.

You may bring in the outdated Lahore vs Karachi argument from 80s, to compare diversity (Pashtun and Kashmiri exodus), but what about the Pashtun/Kashmiri etc communites settled in Islamabad, Pindi, Sialkot, Faisalabad, Multan, Rahim Yar Khan, Jhang, Jehlum, Mianwali, Gujranwala, Attock, Chiniot, Chakwal, Dera Ismail Khan? Can the same be said about Sindh? While Sindh’s urban identity doesn’t go beyond Karachi, but Punjab is so much more than just Lahore! The fact that you still need to put a metropolitan city of Karachi against the whole province of Punjab just shows how tragically detached and behind rest of the Sindh is, and you should know exactly why. The reason why you find ethnic minority migrants settled in every nook and corner of Punjab is simply due to the fact that politics/culture of xenophobia on ethnic and lingual line doesn’t exist. Language is not an issue as Punjabis are more than happy with Urdu being the national language - the prized local lingua franca.

My issue is with people like Moonstar201 and their blatant hypocrisy and ignorance. Ordinary Muhajirs like him don’t want to be generalised and hated for the crimes of MQM, but at the same time they have no shame generalising against a massive ethnic group over the policies of a tiny elite. If the rest of the Pakistan hating Muhajirs over racist hatred MQM spews and people it merciless kills is wrong and non justifiable, then why should hatred against Punjabis be rationalised? Are you guys willing to take the collective guilt of MQM’s terrorism and racist slogans?

This pathetic Munafqat of repeatedly giving your votes to Sindhi feudals and MQM mafia but expecting Punjabis to get you out of your miseries needs to stop. But it goes without saying that hatred against Punjabis always increases whenever MQM’s ass gets in trouble for committing mass murders. Perhaps this is what Moonstar was trying to put across, and I actually agree with him and unfortunately there is no cure for that mindset.

My point was simple: he has the nerve to boast about how Punjabis are so hated in Karachi and Quetta. Yet it is the province of Punjab (not just a city) where from all over Pakistan are living and enjoying the highest rate of inter-ethnic harmony. If Punjabis were so bad, then the kind of ethnic violence and politics of racial bigotry we see in Sindh would have been taking place in every nook and corner of Punjab. Even at hight of MQM’s anti Punjabi BS racism and propaganda, the Muhajir community of Punjab had never bore the burnt of it. In fact, as a result of Karachi operations of 90s, Lahore had received a large chunk of Muhajirs from Karachi and those people have been living there peacefully ever since.

All kinds of political dramas and personal hostilities, inequalities, violence, sectarian killings, crimes and discrimination exists in Punjab but give the province credit for not falling prey to ethnic and lingual divides. There is ample ground for exploitation! The ever so pathetic sons of soil vs outsiders debate has never been a cause of any ethnic tensions in Punjab. Given Punjab’s geographical location and history, we have no such thing as 100% Punjabi blood. Anyone who gives few years of sweat to the land of Punjab becomes Punjabi. Every second person in Punjab is just as Punjabi as Nawaz and Imran.

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Musharraf being an ex COAS, I’m sceptical just how much political freedom he’ll be allowed by the Army considering national secrets rests with him. He can do as much political as he wants in the meantime, it doesn’t matter. We’ll see when he finally forms a proper party and starts campaigning.

But yes, whether he gets popular votes or not. Rest assured, Musharraf will be allowed to do political campaigning in every corner of Punjab without stones being pelted at him, his camp being torched, his workers being target killed and reporters harassing him to clarify his ethnicity. Just like Imran, everything about Musharraf will become an issue, except his ethnicity. If I turn the argument around, do you think the whole contempt and propaganda of ‘Punjabi Army’ might dilute in Muhajir community if an Muhajir Chief does everything to defend and protect the honour of his **Pakistan Army **in mainstream politics?

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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

Interesting they say is ethnic issues in punjab dont exist because there is no ethnic diversity. While it is false but even if we take it as true for the sake of argument the interesting conclusion we get is they dont deny presence of ethnic issues in sindh. Traditional pak politics attitude. If i am corrupt you too are corrupt.

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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

I am talking ethnic diversity in terms of America when you have ethnic groups that celebrate their own holidays and there is ghettonization with china towns and hispanic towns while also diversity within cities where different people live together. Even I might be half punjabi as my dad is east of the border, so you can say that we have a lot of eastern punjabis of variant percentages settled in karachi.

The muhajir community itself came from all parts of india and that sum itself is more diverse than anything combined in Punjab. Add that to bengalis, rest of pakistani ethnicities, tajik, hazaras, rohingya, kashmiris (yes we have them) etc and of course, karachi is diverse than anyplace in Pakistan.

We don’t even have any mqm supporters as khoji is off and saleem has disappeared as well unlike Desert Bird who posts propaganda threads. It is mostly a PTI forum with the second largest party represented being PPP and then Noon league just because no one else is here. You get the stray afghans and/or lefty ANP supporters as well.

As far as Sindh goes, do you see my excusing PPP for being from my “province”? I don’t excuse altaf hussain for whatever good mustafa kamal did. You are mistaking me for AP. In fact, i have posted against AP’s generalizations that happen to be about punjab all the time. Of course, I didn’t like it when karachi was dragged by a certain poster repeatedly in a thread and I am not alone. Are you telling me Decent, SID, muqawee all are third class scum of the earth? Perhaps you think that I anti-Pakistan or something for criticizing Imran khan, but I criticize his stupid actions yet have never said that his goal of free & fair elections is stupid. If I was an MQM supporter, I would be against him 100% as Arif Alvi did win on a seat in 2013 that was rigged on from MQM.

What many people from Punjab don’t “get” is that there are serious issues when communities that were at the forefront of the Pakistani movement (muhajir err indian muslims from mainland AND bengalis) are disappointed and/or angry with Pakistan. **You have already lost one community aka East Pakistan, so how will you pacify balochis, sindhis etc when you are even losing your core base over time?

Ultimately, aside from emotional attachment, **what difference would it make to me if there are more provinces or the CPEC route actually goes through KP and balochistan as promised instead of going through Lahore? Not much as I don’t have any kickbacks on one route or the other that is affecting me. Your own KP CM who is also angry about it as PTI would stand to benefit from any CPEC activity.

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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

Well to burst some ignorant and ill informed people’s fake ego, there is a sizable population of Punjabis and Pathans in rural Sindh. apne ghar se nikal kar dekho to, there is ‘Pathan ki kaafi’ at Sehwan Sharif with Pashtun population. BTW Qalandar Shahbaz who is now identity of Sindh was also an Afghan from Marwand.

There is this famous bus stop Pathan colony in Hyderabad. Pathan population kept on migrating in Sindh for centuries and there are Sindhi Pathan now. They kept their identity of Pathan with them and adapted local language and culture without any hesitation or forcing of others.

Pathans used to sell cloth on their cycles and were also involve in lending business in rural Sindh. We saw many Pathans labor working as cobbler, painter, etc in our childhood. Above all, no one can prepare delicious bhunne channe like Pathans.

There was huge influx of Punjabi population after construction of barrages in Sindh and one can find majority of landowners in vicinity of these barrages (Kotri, Sukkur, etc) being Punjabi. Even one can find Sindhi speaking Malik, Awan in rural Sindh. Malik Asad Sikandar was Nazim from our area.

Also read William Dalrymple’s ‘Nine Lives’ about a lady from Bihar who got refuge at mazar of Qalandar Shahbaz.

Any news for ethnic cleansing of this population? Feel free to share before making long claims just to belittle other communities.

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who gets it first if all ethnicities are in line. :slight_smile:

BTW I still remember the amrood and shakar qandi… that was yummy. Never found that great taste of shakar qundi any where else. Believe haq halal na NAMAK or PASEENA mixed is the reason of the taste

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being Urdu speaking, you might have broken the queue and got shakarqandi before others and thats why it was yummy :hehe:

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Been There done that … sigh and a number of times…

47 …only two provinces Punjab and Bengal …not INDIA were divided… the the major killing fields were between Lahore and Amritsar … both in the then Punjab …some 12 Lac Punjabis were killed thats around 70% of the killing in 47 ..

The First Punjabi COAS was General Asif Nawaz… , the First Punjabi President was Fazal-Illahi Chowdhry aka Sadar ko Raha karoo fame , and the First Punjabi PM was Choudry Shujaat … though … these Ganjaman Brothers been ruling via the mandate given to them by Punjabi genta … that too since 84 …

the First Quota System was implemented by Liaqat Ali Khan … Sep 48 … amended in Oct 49 … given constitutional cover by the 56 and later 62 s constitution uptill DEC 72 ., it was heavily skewed in favor of Migrants … Bhutto via 73’s Constitution merely re-adjusted it according to the new ground realities of Post 71 Pakistan … FACT… Period

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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

baqi sab rehne de.. tell us about tandoor walas at Karachi who sell roti to Urdu speaking first irrespective who stand first in queue.

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…and you are forgetting the Quetta Wala Chai’s and Anda Paratha…

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I normally not go in the very well frequently used word BS of this forum. I got interested due to this tandoor wala very interesting example. Till now the initiator has no reply except " go ask the victim "

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BTW till now I cud not understand the POW of other party.
Do they have point that punjab is not being hated trhough out pakistan ( more than other ethnicities ) . I dont agree with that
Do they have point that Punjab is being hated more than other ethnicities in pakistan but unjustly. I agree to it partially specially for common poor people who got killed in balochistan for being punjabi only.

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Re: [Split discussion] Punjab vs rest

You are a very reasonable critic, and I’ve always enjoyed my discussions with you despite the fact we are hardly ever on the same page. I actually really respect you the fact that despite having your reservations with Immy’s ill calculated moves, you have never in principal tried to trivialise his quest for free and fair elections and undermine his struggle get electoral rigging investigated. This is something I cannot say about vast majority of PTI critics here including the ones who enjoy all the fruits of fair and transparent Western democracies. Imran may be would not have taken all those stupid decision if he’s perfectly democratic and legal demand to get some constituencies investigated was fulfilled long time ago.

My issue is with people like Moonstar who want to remind us that how Punjabis are so hated in Karachi, but conveniently ignore the fact that it was Altaf Hussain and MQM who constantly bad mouthed Punjabis in the days leading up to NA-246. Sindhis also conveniently start crying about Punjabis when PPP is not in power in Punjab. These people want to whine about ‘ethnic bias’ yet do not want to admit that blind ethnic based voting is actually a bane of their province, not Punjab. So much for hating Punjabis and accusing them ethnic bias, it is actually Punjabis that had never elected or popularly supported a leader simply on the basis of ethnicity or language. It is in Punjab that Sindhis can get a resolution passed for Saraiki province yet not a single flower pot gets broken anywhere in Punjab. Yet neither MQM or PPP apologists want to admit that kind of violence and racism that follows in Sindh every time the division of Sindh remotely gets mainstream. You can proudly rationalise why Punjabis are hated in Karachi, but it is in evil Punjab that Muhajirs never faced any backlash at the hight of MQM’s racist propaganda campaign, they happily escaped Karachi and found acceptance in Lahore in 90s. It is in evil Punjab that Sindhi feudal enjoyed grass root support and votes.

If people of Karachi do not support Imran because they are still so traumatised by Imran vs Miandad rivalry (as per Moonstar) so that’s fine. I can’t even be bothered to feel disgusted. I have realised that Imran can only stay in politics of so long, I have no wild fantasises of him liberating Sindh or Karachi. He needs to focus on things/regions/attitude/practices where he can make a change - any kind of change. Even in our back garden, there are certain rows and strips which are slightly more fertile than than others (by nature!), and my Mother usually focus on those strips of the land when she wants to grow fruits and vegetables. Simply because her time and energies are precious. If the same rule also hold true for a country, so be it. I am not here to convince Muhajirs and Sindhis to vote for a non ethnically aligned party of the present time. As long as they let go of this munfaqat of voting for their ethnic parties (despite the criminality), but hoping for Punjabis to let them out of their miseries, their opinions is not my my headache.

Karachi is certainly a diverse city. But the kind of diversity we are talking about Punjab where ethnic minorities are settled all over the province in mixed neighbourhoods of big cities to small town, not just ghettos. It’s the kind of diversity where everyone has access to socio-economic and geographical mobility. The kind of diversity where integration happens most naturally and happily. I have absolutely no respect for that disgusting sons of soil versus outsiders mentality. Neither Punjabi language or Punjabis are endangered species where we need lousy nationalists to disturb the local peace and create more tensions. Everyone in Punjab has a mixed heritage. There’s no such thing as 100% local blood.

As long as we have idiots who rationalise hatred against the a massive ethnic group over what a tiny political elite of that region does, I am not surprised why Punjabis are hated. All I know that it is in Punjab that people of all ethnicities enjoy greater rate of social and inter-ethnic harmony than anywhere else in Pakistan. Something is obviously wrong with people outside of Punjab given the rate of inter-ethnic violence and bigotry in their backyard.

Be pleased that Punjabis are hated. Celebrate. But those idiots who act like apologists for racism which actually results in loss of innocent lives shouldn’t moan and groan when MQM and PPP’s criminality is also generalised on their communities. If Punjabis’ identity lies with whatever PMLN does in power, than what would be Muhajir or Sindhi community’s identity given the glorious track record of party that claim to represent them?

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English are also ‘hated’ outside of England in Britain. There is only so much you can do about such hatred. It’s habitual. There will always be groups who would be contemptuous of majority and despise their success, and blame them for their shortcoming. It is always easier to blame other than take responsibility of your own actions.

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I agree with the assertion that Punjabis are hated in other provinces, the main reason being their population and second being the assertion that they control the military, thats another thing that the military comes from a few districts of Punjab. I can understand Punjabis being loathed by Balochis. Although this is the 5th operation in the province and interestingly none of them were conducted under a Punjabi General per se ( first one just after independence, Two in 50’s/60’s under Muhammad Musa (A Hazara from Quetta), another under Bhutto and the last under Musharraf). Leave this for now, as far as Sindh is concerned, what have Punjabis got to do with the internal politics there? Are Punjabis the scapegoats in the province? Sindh government gets its share from NFC and taxation, we can discuss if they are getting their full share or not. But whatever they are getting if it is utilized honestly don’t you think the province will improve?

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Considering Pakistan has had PMs from Sindh, dictators as well who weren’t Punjabis. I don’t understand scapegoating the latter. The ethnic garbage is always perpetuated by people who want to reflect all the blame from their failings. Sindh ye Sindh woh garbage from PPP constantly for instance, who did nothing during their tenure to improve the life of an average Sindhi.

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Jee aya noon…bariee mehrbani kay aap hamaray forum may padharay

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Socha mai bhi apna doh paisa de doon :hehe:

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While I’m not supporter of PPP at all and I found that they only performed 1% of their capability in Sindh during their last tenure. They did started some good projects. I can talk of my hometown, where they started a new campus of Sindh University, built public parks, renovated schools, reconstructed some roads. My cousin is a contractor for construction projects and during PPP tenure he got so many projects in the districts about session court, schools, hospitals and he was getting timely clearance of his bills. Now, during this tenure the situation is quite opposite.

I don’t see that 1% activity now in Sindh. PMLN’s more efforts are diverted towards Punjab (I don’t have any issue with that), but taking SS on foreign trips and getting agreements signed for projects only in Punjab is the attitude that made people think otherwise and voting on ethnic lines. I have heard many people in Sindh saying that they prefer PPP as other option is nationalists. People are more concerned, who deliver to them more. If PMLN lead governments don’t present example of bias towards small provinces, people might change their mindset of voting on ethnic lines.

BTW, when people say that Punjab elected Bhutto, they might forget that Bhutto played well in chosing electables in Punjab, where voting revolves around Biradri. Shah Mehmood can win on PPP’s ticket or PTI’s ticket says it all.

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I just don’t understand why in Pakhtoonkha the whole ‘Punjabi Army’ racist propaganda hasn’t taken ground considering it is KPK which has paid the massive price for Army’s policies. What makes our Pastun brothers so open minded?

It’s like Altaf Hussain and MQM apologists/supporters were all Long Live Pakistan Army when Musy was in charge. In fact, in past eight years, Altaf Hussain repeatedly asked Army to take over. But the minute an operation against MQM’s urban terrorism is launched and NA-246 becomes vacant, Altaf Hussain is back to howling hayeeee “Punjabi Army” hayeeee “Punjabi establishment” out there to get “mazloom muhajrs”. Bloody bleep bleeep bleeep.

Then you ask me explain why Punjabis are hated in Karachi? For goodness sake.