Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
errr, even we are getting at par with them in “failure” 
.. its not the religion, but its followers.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Agreed … however should we not blame Christianity then on the same par as they are saying Islam is flawed.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Afghanistan govt. might have asked the South Korean Christians to leave because of two reasons-
1) They would have overstayed and tried to become citizens- No one adores illiegal immigrants as much as the US govt. and political parties do here.
2) They might have started working in Afghanistan- snatching well-paid jobs from the locals.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Do you really read what is posted? Lets not get too creative and discuss what is in the news. Who in their right mind would leave South Korea and goto Afghanistan to overstay/illegal work?
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Huh?
Now correct me if I am wrong, but we have had linear succession of governments since the late 1700's. Word of the break up of the country has not yet reached me.
*What YOU meant to say is that YOU do not like the policies of my country.
*
Over the past few years I have given the reason for my optimism for our democracy. To me, a Democracy is like a sailboat in a strong storm. A sailboat is built with a keel, and heavy ballast. It is also boyancy. A strong wind may knock over the boat, but the combination of a long keel, and heavy ballast will eventually right the ship. Similarly, a democracy may at anytime be knocked over, or off course. Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, Free Press, Opposition Parties, Honest Judiciary, Rule of Law, Free Elections, Checks and Balances, a Constitution, and a Bill of Rights will eventually allow the people to take action to right the Republic. At any given moment however the current policies might be quite wrong. The core principals of the Democracy and the Institutions of the Democracy are a self righting mechanism.
This has nothing to do with my religion. There are more Catholics in this country than my religion. We are quite different.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
And exactly how has your religion proven to be any better? At anything?
Actually I think a religion is proven to NOT be a failure if it can work in the framework of a modern, enlightened society.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
hahahahahah man u crack me up
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Now correct me if I am wrong, but we have had linear succession of governments since the late 1700's. Word of the break up of the country has not yet reached me.
:) No I don't mean that.
I think a lot of laws are good here but Christianity lacks guidance for State level entities, which is why you see most Chrsitian majority countries establishing secular governmental systems. Whereas in Islam we do have State level laws as well, and to be a muslim you cannot pick and choose from a set of things from the religion. If you do then what you end up with is what you see today in Muslim dominant countries. Secularism does not mix with a country where as you said 99% of the population is muslim. It would bereft the very fabric of an Islamic state. Non-muslims like to see it such because it will help promote their interests not that it will promote Islam.
I cannot agree with a explanation like that. You are exposing the fallibility of the system. Democracy is bound to erode with the moral fabric and interests of a nation because it does not separate good from bad but gives emphasis on majority opinion with little regard to whether it is right or wrong from some elsese perspective because it serves the interest of those voting for it.
I did not mean to personally attack your religion, if that is how it sounded then I apologize however you should take more caution before you write things without understanding how it is viewed from the other side otherwise it leads to such a line of argumentation.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Actually I think a religion is proven to NOT be a failure if it can work in the framework of a modern, enlightened society.
Islam changed Arab barbarians into the most organized people, which none of the civilized systems of today have been able to achieve. As a resort western politics justs suggests to bomb and massacre the people into oblivion so they can implement their changes easily without resistance since it lacks the credibility needed to convince uncivilized people.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
The organization of barbarians 1400 years ago? And now that same group of people are at the bottom of the scale in almost every measurable category possible. Are you telling me that temporary or centuries-old achievements are 'proof' that the system you advocate is the best?
I hate to bring up something relevant - like recent history - but the US has led the democratization of the world from a handful of countries to over 150 in the past 100 years. Something that has NEVER been done. A majority of those have come through peaceful means and are now more organized than a desert nation of nomadic tribes ever was.
Along with this movement has come prosperity, medical and technological advancements, education and increased standards of living. This has been done in the modern world, where democratic and enlightened policies have been proven to be the successful model. Throwing out attendees to a peace festival just because they don't follow your religion are actions relegated to the failed policies of the past.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Ever heard term "astray"? Can we call Egyptian/Pakistani form of government as "Democratic"? Answer: No, even if you see them having a "president", minister, senate, assemblies etc.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Sir, you did not answer what I had said but just proposed your own assumtpion with a question.
Two world wars in the last 100 years and it has come through peaceful means. 150 countries did not even exist in the past 100 years. There are 192 registered countries with the UN, which was formed half a century ago.
The basis for all these advancement came before any of the democratic reforms and it has nothing to do with democracy. The muslim era has produced its fair share of scientists as well whose works forged the way for all the modern scientists Sir. History goes back more than a 100 years which you are lamenting about.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
I agree, Democracy is more than an 'election'. I would never call current Egypt or Pakistan government 'democratic'
As far as "astray", that only proves the point that USResident should not be accusing others of having a systm that "shows the failure of your religion to even plug into your daily lives and principles on which your country is run" since he doesn't have one good example today to point to himself.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
^ I already replied to him on that one :)
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
I think a lot of laws are good here but Christianity lacks guidance for State level entities, which is why you see most Chrsitian majority countries establishing secular governmental systems.
Democracy, and Secularism were borne out of the same type of treatment of minority religions that is rampant in Muslim countries today. The immigrants to the colonies were horribly persecuted in their home countries, and they fled to the United States to freely pursue their religions.
Christians persecuted then, and Islam is persecuting in precisely the same fashion today. Research the flight of minorities from Muslim countries. It is a horrible situation. While you tell yourself that Islam is a system for Social Administration, embodied in the Religion, it is failing horribly. Muslim frequently comfort each other by claiming that minority religions are well treated in Muslim countries. Nothing could be further from the truth. Minorities cannot hold offices, build new churches, recruit new members, and are frequently tormented through the abuse of blasphemy laws. Never mind the occasional machine gunning or grenade lobbed into their midst.
My first question upon coming to Gupshup was for someone to show me the most enlightened ideal of Muslim existance. The only Muslim country that I personally consider even close to an ideal is Dubai. It is tolerant, moderate, hardworking, and forward thinking. I could certainly tolerate the peaceful coexistance with Muslims in this world if Islamic leaders were all as forward thinking and moderate as Dubai. Now of course, Dubai treats visting laborers like slaves, there is very little political freedom etc. etc. but I think we could all live with plenty of compromise in our personal beliefs in the name of peace.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
No, I countered your ridiculous comment that the unification of the Arabs 1400 years ago represents the most organized people ever and somehow tranlsates into how that system is adaptable or relevant to today.
[quote]
Two world wars in the last 100 years and it has come through peaceful means. 150 countries did not even exist in the past 100 years. There are 192 registered countries with the UN, which was formed half a century ago.
[/quote]
Wrong. 147 of the world's 192 nations have some form of democracy today, compared to just a handful in 1900. A majority have come through peaceful means.
[quote]
The basis for all these advancement came before any of the democratic reforms and it has nothing to do with democracy. The muslim era has produced its fair share of scientists as well whose works forged the way for all the modern scientists Sir. History goes back more than a 100 years which you are lamenting about.
[/quote]
And the Muslim advancements were based on Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese, etc etc before them. So what? That's ancient history. No one suggests the Greeks will rule the world again. It only shows that their systems were not meant for the long run and are not applicable to today's world.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
As far as "astray", that only proves the point that USResident should not be accusing others of having a systm that "shows the failure of your religion to even plug into your daily lives and principles on which your country is run" since he doesn't have one good example today to point to himself.
And you may be right that I lack an example in todays modern world because the values of todays modern world do not agree with many Islamic principles. When did anyone on this forum ever admit to having a true Islamic state as it existed when Islam was in its infancy. However show me something in example from the Islamic period of our Prophet SAW that would not have worked in todays modern world.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Burden is on you to show something that would. If it wasn't working 100 or 200 years ago when values were a lot closer to prophet times than today's why would it?
If the values of todays modern world do not agree with many Islamic principles now, why would we think it is going to change in the future? SA is an example of a modern day country that tries to mimic original "Islamic values" but is anything but a shining example.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Can you pelase give me some examples supporting this.
Re: South Korean Christians ordered out of Afghanistan
Not really, they had developed into "Kingdom" by then.
[quote]
If the values of todays modern world do not agree with many Islamic principles now, why would we think it is going to change in the future? SA is an example of a modern day country that tries to mimic original "Islamic values" but is anything but a shining example.
[/quote]
Only if you knew what they really do :), they are just like any other "dictatorship", they use Islam as their political tool to keep public silent, I really don't take them as what they are made out to be.