Pakistan need to focus less on Kashmir and more on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_392000/392619.stm
I don't usually follow URLs given on any sort of forum but I decided to read this one because it was about "women", that too about the "sorry state of Muslim women".
Yes, it is indeed a pity that Muslim girls have to go thru such disasterous marriages. But you see, not only Muslim girls, but also girls all over the world are in a sorry state. So just to pick out the "Muslim girls" isn't fair.
Everywhere in the world, there's oppression of women in their own ways. I don't know why these foriegn channels don't show the true state of their own women? I don't know why they r so insistent on giving a bad impression to our religion and country. Problems are everywhere but Muslims are especially highlighted which is certainly not fair. No matter how much they say "this is not against Islam", it still somehow gives a bad impression of Islam to the readers and viewers..human psychology.
The only solution to this miserable state of Muslim women is proper religious education. By religious education, many people start thinking of mullah with a maula-bakhsh. That's wrong actually.
Religious education....PROPER religious education should be made a part of Islamic families. It is the duty of the parents to give such education to their children and there is no way a girl can be forced into a marriage against her will.
And lemme tell u something else..our "government" will never care about these girls. They r far too busy with their corruption.
There are plenty of XXX rated sites where you can follow the sorry state of non-muslim women. What do you think about that Gr_Brush?
ok
Its just a propoganda about Pakistan and islam, if they do samething in india im sure things will be words, you should concentrate on your own women and childern half of your population is born with marriage which we al call bastards and some dont even know who the father is and some dont even know who the paretns are, Ahmad sadat said this WHITE WOMEN ARE FOR FUCKING AND THROWING OVER!!! at least we dont have that kinda filth in our society!!! what ever we are poor or unindustrilized, and in UK girls get pregnangt when they are 12 shit they should not even take thire head out and talk to us of our problems which are normal in this kinda society!!! Look at your selves first before confronting us with our problems, straighten your self first before you come to people who are here to strighten you guys up!!!
till next time K_I_S_S
Jaawan
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited July 14, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited July 14, 1999).]
Jaawan,
Are you suggesting that Taliban like mentality will solve the problems dealing with women folk ?? In fact Talibanis and all other fundo muslims have routinely abused and raped muslims women! That same website details out the crimes committed by talibanis.
Reagan,
hmmmn...
To accuse someone of rape is a serious accusation.
You write...
"...ALL OTHER FUNDO MUSLIMS have routinely abused and raped muslims women!"
Having made such a heavy statement you will no doubt be able to qualify it..could you kindly do so...because I'm totally bewildered!
Kindly also expand upon who ALL OTHER FUNDO MUSLIMS are that you are so casually accusing of these atrocities...
[This message has been edited by Sakinah (edited July 16, 1999).]
The Islaamic system, by virtue of its divine orgins, allows women to do the one thing other systems do not...BE A WOMAN!
The secular laws that promote so-called equal rights are made by MEN for MEN.
And Allah Knows best.
[This message has been edited by Sakinah (edited July 16, 1999).]
Sakinah,
The equality in the islamic system you talk about only exist in Koran (theory). No Islamic country practices the equality you are talking about. In fact the gender bias is the greatest in islamic countries as
compared to most democartic countries.
I have to go now. I will continue on later..
Sakinah: Please elaborate on
[quote]
The secular laws that promote so-called equal rights are made by MEN for MEN.
[/quote]
Sakinah,
I think the Quran has been interpreted by men for men, although it was written by Allah for everyone. The system may be very good, but it has not been implemented as it was intended.
Zara
I hope everyone is well.
Reagan...I agreee that the practise of Islaam falls short of the theory...I anticipate an answer to the question I posed earlier!
Roman...male and female are different both physically and emotionally and I would happily accept proof that indicates otherwise(!). For a woman to be "successful" (in the general sense) within the framework set out by secular society she either needs to be become like a man or lose her dignity (or both or perhaps more!).
Zaraatif,
I agree...but not entirely...yes, Islaam has been (mis)interpreted and manipulated to suit greedy ends and has therefore not been implemented as intended...further, however, I believe that we need to look at the way it was implemented and understood when it was revealed, by those (both male and FEMALE) whom it was revealed to in order to understand what was indeed intended by it.
And Allah Knows best.
Sakinah:
[quote]
...male and female are different both physically and emotionally...
[/quote]
There is no doubt about it. There both are just different, and one is not better or worse than the other.
[quote]
For a woman to be "successful" (in the general sense) within the framework set out by secular society she either needs to be become like a man or lose her dignity (or both or perhaps more!).
[/quote]
What do you mean by become like a man? What are specific examples of what you mean by it?
Does it mean that by becoming a Football player, a Construction worker, a Judge, a Mailroom peon, an Executive, a Cashier at McDonalds, and so forth, a woman becomes like a man? And looses her dignity? Is that the implication of your quote or there is something else?
Reagon, First off all talaban is not PURE islam that was in times of mohammad. I was talking much more about ISLAM of QURAN and HADITH, the way the Mohammad and his followers lived thire lives. Whats right and whats wrong, thats it but please dont ingnore the other things in the post they are to think about!!
Jaawan
K_I_S_S
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited July 16, 1999).]
Roman,
I hope you are well.
About males and females you wrote,
"...There both are just different, and one is not better or worse than the other."
Agreed.
You then asked,
"What do you mean by become like a man?"
In actions, in expectations, in roles, in behaviour, in appearance, in mannerisms...the list goes on...
You then asked...
"What are specific examples of what you mean by it?"
Go back to my original post and put the statements I have made into this context. I am speaking about the way the laws (which are based on what is morally acceptable, ideals etc.) and policies of secular society are tailored to suit the male psyche. And its my view (based on my own experience of this way of life) that until a woman is prepared to adopt an attitude, play the roles etc. and even look like her male counterparts she will have a hard time getting anywhere, even at the survival level. This is reinforced by the economics for example, which for say, in a family with young children necessitate that both perents need to go out to work to pay the bills...whose educating, nurturing and developing the minds of the children? I believe this is primarily the role of the mother. Why, because she is emotionally and physically more suited for this. And the laws made by men cannot (and in my view do not) fully understand the intricacies of the female psyche. I am not saying that mothers that go out to work are bad mothers, FAR FROM IT what I am saying is that the ideals and subsequent laws of this society encourage this set up. If a woman, for example wishes to fulfil her DUTY as a wife and mother this is frowned upon.
This is also reinforced by the media, the political system, the culture, the norms etc. etc.
Further and in general, what is also frowned upon are attributes like shyness, modesty, humility etc. (which are by no means just characteristic of women) but make it harder for women.
I myself have experienced such attitudes amongst what would be regarded as the cream in the UK...the very people responsible for making and implementing laws...having worked with these MEN...I concluded one thing...I feel sorry for their wives!! It's a man's world because people like this are running the show.
And finally you asked,
"Does it mean that by becoming a Football player, a Construction worker, a Judge, a Mailroom peon, an Executive, a Cashier at McDonalds, and so forth, a woman becomes like a man? And looses her dignity? Is that the implication of your quote or there is something else?"
If a woman chooses to take on your definition of "success" and aim for such jobs (and why is success judged by jobs anyway??) that's her choice. Your question only reinforces my point that these are the ideals promoted by secular society...and remember I'm talking about what the society expects of a woman not what she chooses to do.
And no, a woman does not lose her dignity by getting a job.
Why can a woman, who is true to herself and follows her natural instincts, not be a successful WOMAN if she wishes to stay at home, out of the gaze of strange men and bring up her children? (more of a statement than a question!).
I hope this has answered your questions and clarified my view.
(By the way, how do I post in bold and do fancy quote lines etc. etc.?)!!
Sakinha: On the Gupshup main page, where it lists all the available forums, there is a link under the heading faq. Follow the link and it will take you to the document, which in details, explains doing the fancy stuff. I think it explains better than a crash course I might be able to provide.
Now coming back to your response.
I am speaking about the way the laws (which are based on what is morally acceptable, ideals etc.) and policies of secular society are tailored to suit the male psyche
Now bear with me, you specifically mentioned way the laws and policies of secular society are tailored… so it will only be pertinent to compare the way the laws and policies of Islamic/religious societies are tailored. I will point out to the plight of women in societies like Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. Those are not secular societies and given your rationale, since these societies exist in contrast to secular societies, The ways that these religious societies’ laws and policies are tailored should show improved and “successful” life conditions of women.
And its my view (based on my own experience of this way of life) that until a woman is prepared to adopt an attitude, play the roles etc. and even look like her male counterparts she will have a hard time getting anywhere, even at the survival level
Would you think, as a woman, you would have a better quality of life and success (however you define it) if, theoretically speaking, you were to live in any one of the countries above? My guess is that you would still have to go through every single item in your quote above, except for the “even look like her male counterparts” part. For that part, the phrase “look like the way her male counterpart want her to” would hold true.
This is reinforced by the economics for example, which for say, in a family with young children necessitate that both parents need to go out to work to pay the bills
In the societies I mentioned above, men hold majority of the financial assets, freedom of spending, and decision making based on them while women stay at home. That still have not shown in those societies a better education level, nurturing and development of the children’ minds. Again, I am only using your rationale to find out if the education level/literacy rate and development of minds of the children or the people are better than the ones in secular societies you are talking about. Now, whether or not there are other factors behind these differences in level of education etc., since you singled out only one factor as a criterion of judgement, I am making the same factor mine criteria as well.
If a woman, for example wishes to fulfil her DUTY as a wife and mother this is frowned upon.
If a woman, for example wishes to fulfil her DUTY and prerogative as an individual to go out, have a career of her own in above societies, it is frowned upon. I will be coming back to this point later as well.
This is also reinforced by the media, the political system, the culture, the norms etc. etc.
Vice versa
I feel sorry for their wives!!
I do too for women in above societies
It's a man's world because people like this are running the show.
Vice versa. However, we have to see which society gives more freedom to women.
If a woman chooses to take on your definition of "success" and aim for such jobs (and why is success judged by jobs anyway??)
No, I did not define “success” in terms of what you interpret above. I actually asked a question if by “being successful” you meant that women are having different careers of their choice. The question was purely intended to know what is your definition of success for women. My definition of “success” for women would be their freedom of choice whether they want to become a clerk or a household wife and stay home. Swap the gender and the same definition of “success” would apply to men as well.
Your question only reinforces my point that these are the ideals promoted by secular society...and remember I'm talking about what the society expects of a woman not what she chooses to do
For the second part, “and remember I'm talking about what the society expects of a woman not what she chooses to do” Same holds true in the societies based on religion.
For the first part, I think now I will make that point which I mentioned somewhere above. The concept of Feminism is promoted by the secular societies you mentioned, not by the religious societies. Equality of sexes and gender is more prominent in secular ideologies. It’s a process of gradual improvement. If women are frowned upon not showing certain attributes that they are expected in secular societies, then at the same time, they are also given the freedom and opportunity (generally speaking) to fight back such attitude. However, this is not the case in religious societies. Men get a punch right back in the forms of being called “sexist”, sexual harassment, and bashing over using “he” instead of “he or she” when they are referring to a third person in conversation. That’s women’s triumph, and it should be that way.
I think I don’t need to mention that there is no Utopia. There are going to be gray areas whether it’s a secular society or a religious one. However, we need to see which one is more gray than the other. And more importantly, which one is striving to make that gray area closer to the white and farther from the dark area.
Paradox and trade-offs are inevitable in human life and social systems. It’s a never ending debate when it comes to measuring which one is better and which criteria of objectivity is to employ for such measurement.
It’s a man’s world wherever you will go on planet earth. However, one needs to see which system, or society is striving more to get away from it, specially when comparing different socities and the way the laws and policies of those society are tailored.
Roman,
Thanks for the info on improving the appearance of my posts!
What in essence I am talking about are the ideals and aspirations that are promoted by these societies.
My own view and in summary the point I am trying to make is that it is unfair for people to point the finger at Islaam and call it oppressive whilst supporting and advocating a system, which from someone else's point of view is 'guilty' of the same.
The point that is so often missed is that there is NO compulsion in Islaam, if you choose to be a Muslim you are accepting what comes with it.
If you happen to live in a society which CLAIMS to be governed by Islaam, and those in power abuse Islaam to maintain the status quo, then you are a victim of your situation.
But I have chosen Islaam over other ideologies, and as a woman, I beleive it encourages me to be a woman and be at peace with my choices. No-one can tell me Islaam is oppresive and abuses women because this does not hold true to me.
I've nothing more to add.
Thanx.
Reagon Islam has a very speacial place for a women, you will knwo it when you read the proper books of islam like QURAN and HADITH then you ll see what is right and what is wrong. Coming to conclusion about a major ethnical group on what part of that group does is a major example of stupidity!! please DON't believe your media(its control by jews) they will always tell whats against muslims and is humiliating to muslims so do some research before you come here and accuse muslims of things that are not in our religion!!!By the way Islam has no race EVERYONE IS equal!!!
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited July 17, 1999).]
Jawaan,
All religions preach equality and tolerance. Not just islam.
For the info if you don't know.
Islam have started from very first human being of this earth, and was comlpeted at our beloved prophet SAW. So all so called religions are phases of Islam at different times, and now Islam is completed and is for all human beings ang Jinns till doomesday.