better late than dead!
Dear MiniMe, what do you think we are, all haafiz-ay Quran here that we'll guess which aaya you are talking about, haiN?
Please provide a simple, plain (let me emphasize, 'simple, plain') translation of the aaya without accompanying Arabic text (just to save you some time, you see) so that we'd know what the heck are you talking about.
Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 10, 2002).]
For this ayat, we dont have to be Hufaz, its plain, simple translate that to any language the meaning would remain the same. Surat AL-Fatiha ayat 4.
I think it’s really something which comes down to a matter of choice if we keep religion out. One can be as pious as he wishes to be, but that does not mean that one wouldn’t stumble. Whether, it’s personal weakness, peer pressure, or just enjoying the buzz; you just drink, and then it becomes something customary on occasions.
More than anything, for me, it was something to grow out of. I can’t say that I am biased against those who drink, then I’ll be dissing many of my friends. But, when it comes to Muslims, then you are being hypocritical. If you choose to live with sense of controversy in your own beliefs, then it does become acceptable.
PS Roman: what a reminder you are, now my memories of getting bombed to conclusiveness are awaken
What I find hard to understand is, how people are able to stand the smell of alcohol. I, myself feel as though i'll puke just by passing near a pub, being near a drink is another matter.
I have a objection to the drinking crowd both in Pakistan and outside, you are essentially out of the loop if you refuse to drink, and I know people who have lost their jobs because of that, some in desperation went to the pub drinking a glass of orange juice, just to be "in", it's sad, in Pakistan it's as bad, a person who doesn't drink loses the chance to make "contacts"...
I've never touched the stuff, and religiosly, and morally I find no excuse for indulging. I would probably be less judgemental though if I didn't see desperate people using drinking as a tool to go higher up in their jobs!
During my younger rowdy animal house fraternity days, I was the only one not drinking. Once I had become a member, most of my fraternity brothers considered me to be an ultra-conservative weirdo but later they accepted me as is. I'd be lying if I said that the temptation wasn't there espicially at parties, and outings. I think what stopped me was how the people behaved after consuming too much alcohol.
It is indeed tough for those of us out in the west to avoid going to a pub/bar espicially after work. Some good solutions are to grab a soft-drink while your there or figure out a better way to socialize. I think if your co-workers friends insist upon a drink they are nothing more than dealers of intoxicants.
The eyelids of a Rajputs eyes are lowered only in death.
[quote]
Originally posted by Zakk:
** in Pakistan it's as bad, a person who doesn't drink loses the chance to make "contacts"...**
[/quote]
You must be moving in some really liberal circles in Pakistan. I know not all Pakistanis are teetotalarian, but the above statement is a bit of an overstatement.
I do know that if you don't drink tea, thats considered quite rude in some official circles.
[quote]
Originally posted by MiniMe:
For this ayat, we dont have to be Hufaz, its plain, simple translate that to any language the meaning would remain the same. Surat AL-Fatiha ayat 4.
[/quote]
MiniMe,
Allow me to point out to you that this is the second time you refered to an aaya, emphasizing how it changed the course of your life, without actually writing the text (wohi, the plain, simple one) of it. This is just too much suspense building up.
Unless you concede you're a blond bimbo, I refuse to be teased by you.
PS-
Abdullah, peace.
I myself don't drink...never have. But I have friends who do drink, and on occassions when we're all out to dinner a few of them will get some type of alcohol. They all know I don't drink. Sometimes they'll tease me about it...in fact, my 21st birthday is coming up in a few months and they've been teasing me all this year on how they're going to get me drunk and stuff. BUT the thing is it's all friendly teasing...they have never actually pressured me into drinking(or doing anything else I don't want to). If a person tries to pressure you into drinking or tries to make you feel inferior because you don't drink, then that person isn't a true friend to begin with.
BTW, a few of the posts gave the impression that every single person who consumes alcohol gets totally drunk and is a alcoholic. That's not true. Majority of the people do not get drunk after having 1 beer or 1 or 2 glasses of wine. Not to say that there aren't people who don't have a alcohol problem...just saying that it's not the majority.
I remember that after a particularly brutal final exam (and possibly the last of the series), I said as a joke to my friends that now we should go and celebrate this ass ripping by getting drunk. And there was this girl who was standing by or talking to one of my friends. She literally started tugging at my hand and was hell bent on making me regret having ever said those words.
It took both of my friends to convince her that I was only joking about the drinking. Gora people take their drinking a bit too seriously.
There was prohibition in USA once .Even few c.c. of alcohol could land you into jail like they do with drugs now.
When somthing is prohibited like in Islam it erradicates it from the ROOT.Someone mildly put it that little beer is not going to make you drunk or lose your consciousness…agreed But Tell that to the Narcotics Cop who can ruin your future if you have in posession even 1 gm. of illegal drug. In matters of laws we dont argue like that …“what harm can come with 1gm angel dust ..it wont even touch you..” BUT cops dont argue with you like that .THIS IS THE LAW & YOU HAVE EVEN TRACE OF IT YOU ARE BUSTED YOU HAVE RECORD& ALL THE SOCIAL CONSEQUENCESES ASSOCIATED WITH IT .
THATS WHY IN ISLAM IT IS HARAM TO TOUCH …to tal prohibition not like rationalization of quantity or benefits or impracticality etc.etc.Would a cop listento your EXCUSES …NEVER etc.etc.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smash.gif
[This message has been edited by Azad Munna (edited June 10, 2002).]
My “Marhoom” Nana used to say… “Teach ur child a extremly good education, manners, rules, religion in the age of 3 to 10, then leave em, no matter where ever they go in life, no matter what circumtances they face, they might fllow with some bad in teenage but when they are mature again, they will come back on the right path”
i dont know how much this thing would be true… maybe its the same case with u, i dont know.
but still i think what u did is wonderful i m proud of u.
i could find the ayahs on alcohol forbidding it if anyone would want them,
Sugar, spice 'n all things nice
Anything addictive is bad for you. People take their alcohol differently and so-called 'social drinking' is most likely to elevate to dependency on alcohol. Some of my friends cannot go out or have fun unless they drink and that is just sad. They are alcoholics in the making. I often wonder about the state of their livers.
No Faisal, most of myf riends from the middle class, don't drink and can't even dream of touching the stuff. But it is a fact if you want to get things done in Pakistan using booze as a means of breaking the ice for your sifarish is a common practice.
Zakk,
Any society that requires sifarish for anything will obviously have other ills attached to it.
[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
** Unless you concede you're a blond bimbo,
B]
[/quote]
you just wish ....
In Italy it is rare to see somone drunk - wine is consumed at the table and excesses are frowned upon. It is not rare to meet Italians who don't drink and have no trouble refusing a drink in social circles. That's not to say that alcoholism doesn't exist, but it's not seen very easily.
When I went to UK for studies it was the first time I saw drunkenness - the results were disgusting and frightening. At university some students would compete to see who could drink the most - wasteful in all ways. I saw people who risked choking on their vomit, although it only happened twice. I saw accidents due to drinking too much. Not nice, and entirely avoidable. Until this time I had not understood how dangerous driving could be.
We make it clear to our friends that we don't drink and that we don't think of alcohol as a suitable accompaniment to a meal. When friends to bring a bottle of wine or champagne we thank them and ask gently if they wouldn't mind giving it to someone who would enjoy it rather than to us. People are often actually surprised that we don't contemplate alcohol as part of our menu.
As a nice drink in a social situation (but I hate pubs) a glass of icy sparkling mineral water with some lime juice squeezed into it is fabulous - and refreshing.
But because I have seen people who can drink socially and in a responsible fashion, I do not condemn them. It is part of the culture of this country. Fine for them, not for me.
This so called culture drinking can be seen here in Austria too, I havent really seen deadly drunken guys on the streets, I guess they stay in pubs or something. Yes drinking wine is part of "tisch culture" table culture. Red wine and white wine, women prefere more the sweet ones are taken with meals to give fine taste just like kissing the hands of females performed by men to show respect, its shows that you are cultivated here, I am NOT encouraging anyone to drinking but just showing how alcohol drinking differs from parts to parts. Drinking 1/8 glas of wine each day they say prevents from heart disease, don't know how true this really is. I have also seen those who drink without ever ending its pathetic to see what they are doing to themselves. when this one co-workers comes in the moring to work without sleep and been in the pub all night, we all don't show any understanding for him, all know that he is damaging his lever and health, but I guess its his business so we all don't bud inside.
[This message has been edited by SaadiaB (edited June 11, 2002).]