So what alternatives are there to terrorism?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

OK, I am sure that this will get really heated and degenerate into name calling but I would like to respectfully ask that emotions be put on hold and logic and some insight be foremost in your replies…

The average Joe Schmoe American (hereafter known as AJSA) knows little of the plight of palestinians. The Jewish people in America of course are in positions of power and influence so that most, if not all, of our senators, congresspeople, media moguls etc etc are Jewish…so Americans of course hear little of the Muslim side of things. We hear little also of the Jewish side but whatever is presented is Pro-Israel. Unfair? Absolutely. I spoke this weekend to a person very knowledgeable of history, foreign affairs etc and am really pretty horrified at what the Zionists have been able to get away with and am left wondering why the US of A is letting them get away with being so unfair.

So now I am thinking that OBL, while I abhor what he does, may not be so very wrong. He is actually waking up AJSA to the fact that they need to listen, understand that things are really really wrong. I would prefer to see a different mode of operation, ie., spending and spending on getting Muslims into positions of power in USA but of course that will take generations. In the meantime, all of this is going on…in Palestine, Iraq, etc etc.

So what to do to wake up AJSA? We are a very hard working people but have historically pretty much ignored foreign policy because we’re so busy taking care of our own back yard. Sad? Yes absolutely. But its the way of life here…people barely have time to take care of the basics and pay the bills…we have had “no need” to worry about foreign policy really. If it doesnt affect what we pay in taxes, doesnt affect our ability to feed and clothe and educate our children then it isnt important. Thats why we all were so very shocked at the events of 9/11.

Any ideas on how to promote the Muslim agenda in a more productive way???

2

Okay I will take a quick stab at this. Let's just ignore the Muslim countries out there and concentrate on Muslims here in the U.S. First of all there are many wealthy Muslims here in the U.S. as well. The problem I see is that we are not united. We still think of ourselves as Pakistanis, Arabs, Sunni, Shia, etc etc. You get the point.

The Jews on the other hand are very united as one people. There numbers are smaller than ours, but they speak with one voice (a sizeable majority of them for that matter).

If the Muslims could unite under one banner and invest under that banner, I am absolutely positive that the attitudes will change here in the U.S. Nothing is more precious to a U.S. representative or congressman to win in elections. If we speak with one voice and cast our ballots as such, change will come and quickly...

3

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xguru: *
Okay I will take a quick stab at this. Let's just ignore the Muslim countries out there and concentrate on Muslims here in the U.S. First of all there are many wealthy Muslims here in the U.S. as well. The problem I see is that we are not united. We still think of ourselves as Pakistanis, Arabs, Sunni, Shia, etc etc. You get the point.

The Jews on the other hand are very united as one people. There numbers are smaller than ours, but they speak with one voice (a sizeable majority of them for that matter).

If the Muslims could unite under one banner and invest under that banner, I am absolutely positive that the attitudes will change here in the U.S. Nothing is more precious to a U.S. representative or congressman to win in elections. If we speak with one voice and cast our ballots as such, change will come and quickly...
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but just ingoring the MUslims in other countries is the main fault factor, since exactly those outside have more problems in understanding that we are ONE and not Arab, Pakistani, Sunni or Shia.
Got my point?! So how do we deal with them?

Mama, the most important issue right now is that we need an halt on those claims and blames of everything is done by Muslims, they r bad! How do we stop the Media from that?! The very news I read is Islamic Fundamentalists...., Jihadi Extremists, Muslim terrorists.....hell and there is no end to it!
If Jews have made a "law" to keep others mouth shut when ppl talk about Jews and their religion, why isnt there a way to do the same for our religion?!
The first to handle would be the media and the media giants. We need to give them more about our religion and culture than just "JIHAD","SWORDS","KAFIR" etc etc etc.
There is much more about our Religion than just those words!

4

XGuru, You are absolutely right that Muslims need to unite under one banner and that will become a powerful voice. The issue that I see with that is as follows:
People with Jewish faith only have to worry about Israel. So it is easy for them to unite. Don’t get me wrong even though there are Jewish people from Africa, Russia etc, they all qualify for defacto Israeli citizenship, but thats besides the point. Point being that it is easy for them to have a jointed effort, specially after all the horrible things that have been done to Jews (spanish inquisition, holocaust), they dont ever want a repeat of that so they all unite for Israel. Nothing wrong with that. God bless them for that.

Muslims on the other hand come from various countries in US. They have their own priorities and ethnic agendas that dont really qualify for a united Muslim front. In other words does a Pakistani really care about Palestinean? why should a Pakistani care about Chechnya? or why should a Nigerian muslim care about Kashmir, or what about an Indian muslim and a Pakistani muslim :bukbuk2: trying to settle the Kashmiri crisis?
So even if they were to unite I don’t see any common cause for them to unite on.
Maybe I am wrong. But this is a good post got me thinking :konfused:.

5

Power never takes a back step only in the face of more power...
Malxom X 1965

Terrorism can be successfully defeated with a plutonium or uranium rod..

6

So Mr Abdali, if I read your message right, you think that terrorists should be subdued with nuclear weapons???

Not constructive at all. Especially since the terrorists like to hide behind women and children :)

Thank you to the other responders....your type are the ones who give hope for peace on the planet...one day....

7

Not at all. We can think :ahaa:, chat :bukbuk2:, post ideas :smooth:, but there will never be peace on planet earth. Thats the nature of the beast. The two biggest arms exporters are U.S :kaboom: and Russia :rocketup:, I don’t think they would like to have peace so their weapons factories are closed, you think for one minute that Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin would like peace or Colt for that matter, nice try but :nono1:

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
So now I am thinking that OBL, while I abhor what he does, may not be so very wrong. He is actually waking up AJSA to the fact that they need to listen, understand that things are really really wrong. I would prefer to see a different mode of operation, ie., spending and spending on getting Muslims into positions of power in USA but of course that will take generations. In the meantime, all of this is going on....in Palestine, Iraq, etc etc.
[/QUOTE]

Its true that 9/11 woke alot of americans up to the fact that the world isnt as glory as they see on the box and its also true that 9/11 brought the conflict alot closer to home. However, the problem is the gov is already trying to churn it back into the protective bubble that everyone used to be in. 'Its ok, you guys got nothing to worry about, we'll sort out the big bad monster who wants to take away your freedom', whilst all the time trying to cover up the real reasons.

However, if we look at the reasoning that the gov spews quite regularly, (and the media is not far behind) the same old rehetoric, 'They hate our freedom', 'they hate our lifestyle and democracy', 'those terrorists wont be happy until they've taken over America' and so on, its quite obvious they are merely playing on our percieved fears. This fear factor may play a crucial part for the bush gov. Its probably one of the only ways he can drum up any major support, esp where ignorance about foriegn issues is quite common.

If anyone managed to get through the censorship in america and read the whole transcript from bin ladens tape, take a look closely at these 3 sentences, and you may find your long sought answer;

*He tries to appropriate the language of the Bush administration, dismissing Mr Bush's regular claims that al-Qaeda militants "hate freedom".

" We fought you because we are free and do not accept injustice," he says.

He adds: "Your security does not lie in the hands of Kerry, Bush, or al-Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security."

Bin Laden also says he first thought of attacking the US after seeing destroyed tower blocks in Lebanon following the Israeli invasion in 1982, which the US, he says, permitted.*

So you see, its got nothing to do with your (generic) lifestyle, your american dream, your freedom or your democracy and your blah this and that. Tell you the truth, I dont think he could give two hoots about any of that. The only reason he's ever got any support abroad, is because he stands for what alot of people believe in. They may whole heartily denounce his actions, but his stance against injustice and for freedom is something alot of foreigners (aswell as citizens) can relate to.

So until these issues are understood and addressed; this war on terror will remain totally futile and will only result in more bin ladens being produced, and then we're back to square one with more enemies than we started. These issue can only be furthered or brought to attention by US citizens; reaching out and educating the mass public could only be a start as its only the masses view that is crucial to the US goverment.

9

Did somebody say Lockheed Martin? They are our biggest contractors. I definitely don’t want them to shutdown. So keep fighting cuz I wanna keep my job. :smiley:

10

Agent Smith: If Kerry wins, expect a rollback on defence related contracts. Keep your resume updated :D

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
So Mr Abdali, if I read your message right, you think that terrorists should be subdued with nuclear weapons???

Not constructive at all. Especially since the terrorists like to hide behind women and children :)

Thank you to the other responders....your type are the ones who give hope for peace on the planet...one day....
[/QUOTE]

Please do your home work...

12

so mr abdali, what homework is it that you are referring to? I will read whatever you point me to....

You, however, have still not replied to the question asked....you think that terrorists should be controlled thru nuclear attack? Lets be constructive here.....

Mr Agent Smith, lol!! Thats pretty funny! but sadly, its also true too...

13

Foreign Policy is applied at countries not Faith or Religion. Since there many Muslim countries that have different gripes with the World (US in general) to lump FP together and apply it wouldn’t make make sense nor would it work.

Either all muslim countries and their MAtoos :maulvidis need to get together :bukbuk2: and come up with a wish list as to what the hell do they really want OR try for that dead whacha-me-call-it thingy “Ummah”.

All Muslim Countries Coming together
Islamic summit conference is one such place, however the current regimes are corrupt :fraudia: and are not really the true representative governments for their people, furthermore they are sycophants and play right into the hands of US. Hence the punjabi mahavara
“Jithe de Kothi uthay aan kalothi” OR for English speaking people the saying “round and round we go”

** Ummah**
That is an interesting concept but in the 21st century with countries and their populace being nationalistic, I dont see it working either and to have a virtual Ummah may unite Muslims but wont solve the demographic problems that Muslims in their respective countries have with US.

More to follow

14

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
so mr abdali, what homework is it that you are referring to? I will read whatever you point me to....

You, however, have still not replied to the question asked....you think that terrorists should be controlled thru nuclear attack? Lets be constructive here.....

Mr Agent Smith, lol!! Thats pretty funny! but sadly, its also true too...
[/QUOTE]

Start with google and figure out who killed millions of innocent civilians in NK and Vietnam.. may be Heroshima / Nagasaki can jog your memory!!!

Also try to find out why it is so easy to lobe a missile at some Pharm factory in Sudan but terrorist wet their pants at the sight of kims rod...

That is what you call the wrath of plutonium rod, one which Iraq never had and Iran is well on its way to get one.

See if pictures help.

[thumb=E]sack6846_9028376.JPG[/thumb]

Hallelujah

15

For the first time in his tragic existence, OBL actually made some decent points and it was good to see him admit that 9/11 was his doing and why he did it (Palestine, Lebanon). Of course he is a killer of children and women but he has not only started a world war, he has also started a civil war among Muslims.

16

"So what alternatives are there to terrorism?"

The advent of democracy in the US.

17

I thought about your post in great detail. The subject “Alternatives to Terrorism” and what you write under the guise of “Alternatives to Terrorism” about educating AJSA are two different things.
Alternatives to Terrorism are modification of Foreign Policy (FP) towards Mid-East (ME) and South Asia (see my earlier post on FP being applied at countries and not religion) I have lumped Muslim countries into two regions for simplicity sake.
Modification of U.S foreign Policy is easier said than done. U.S FP towards Russia is different than lets say for argument sake FP applied at Philippines. The reason I use these two countries is because Russia has Chechnya to deal with and, Philippines has Abu-Sayaf group :maulvidis, MILF group :soldier: fighting each other but unite themselves :2guns: when Philippines and U.S Special Operations conduct anti-terrorism ops. Chechnya and Moro (Philippines) insurgency are both supported by OBL (financed by him, and his Arab afghan fighters are training local militia and participating), both are Islamic insurgencies and both are demanding separate states, one from Russia and the other from Philippines. U.S cannot ask Russia to just hand over Chechnya. Similarly U.S Military is operating in Philippines on the request of Philippine Govt. So for OBL and his gang to generalize that Muslims are being killed by lack of U.S intervention or interest in Russia, OR U.S special Ops :soldier: killing Islamic insurgents :maulvidis in Philippines is good to rally Muslim supporters specially after Friday Prayers. If Terrorists think that U.S will just give into their demands they are sadly mistaken. Furthermore OBL is a terrorist maybe a freedom fighter and a hero to some but in the eyes of the west he is a terrorist. OBL is not the combined voice of all Muslims, and I can’t picture OBL coming to Washington DC to sit with Bush/Kerry to discuss FP and trade relations, similarly Bush/Kerry are not going to a cave in Khowst Afghanistan to negotiate FP anytime soon or ever.
Lets move to Kashmir and how US deals with India and Pakistan. This is a long never-ending problem because what Pakistan wants, India is not willing and vice versa, there cannot be a compromise from either two nations. There are many solutions that can be applied but due to the stubbornness of the countries involved the efforts are subdued. U.S policy (speaking in general terms) towards India is based on Economic (out sourcing IT and other jobs) factors, whereas U.S policy towards Pakistan is based on the war on terror.
Then you have insurgencies in Algeria (Armed Islamic Group), Indonesia (Aceh movement being fought by GAM), Uigher Chinese, Kosovo (pretty much done), and Iraq (we chose this one).
They all have a common cause (they all want Islamic govts and Islamic laws imposed) but we have seen in the past that when Taliban was in power it was brutal and repressive to the people. While there was relative peace and theft and other crimes were at a all time low, it was partly due to fear of getting caught and actually drives Rumsfeld’s point home when he said at the fall of Baghdad, “people steal when they are free.” :).
This brings me to Israel and Palestine, where U.S policy is unfair towards Palestinians (but to give credit to U.S they did broker a peace treaty that Arafat rejected) so it’s not that U.S doesn’t try.
So why all this anti U.S FP bashing (and I myself am a culprit have posted berating US policies). Islam binds us Muslims together more so than our Christian counterparts. And when the Muslims see what is going on in all these countries and they see that the current regimes are just mere puppets of U.S gov’t they get mad :mad2:.
So for now I have only highlighted issues surrounding FP in the next post I will try to come up with alternatives.

Educating AJSA can be accomplished by making Political-Science (pol-sci) a mandatory subject in High School / College (just like English 101/102). I don’t know whether this will have any affect or not, but IMHO it will be a good start and serve as a foundation, now whether a hay seed (going to high school) in Topeka Kansas or Ohio really comprehends pol-sci or not is up to him and his educators. This also helps AJSA not only with FP but also in understanding globalization, issues that surround it and making our Citizens more aware of the rest of the world and not just the world that we have been living in i.e. U.S.

18

Mr Verison, your insight and thoughtfulness are much appreciated and if there were more people like you on the planet then I think peace may truly have a chance...

You are quite right, if we educate our children to read, care about and understand the foreign policies of the country they live in, perhaps an end will come to the unfairness. Because no matter WHAT your religion, if you are a decent person then you can recognize and want to correct unfairness....which is really quite obvious when looking at the state of things and the reality in the Muslim world esp Palestine.

As far as Mr Abdali, if the majority of the population is like you, then there is no hope for peace. You care not about the question I asked, obviously, since you have ignored it completely. You have merely spit out the history of wrongs done by the US os A while ignoring completely the question of how to proceed in a PRODUCTIVE manner....We can start going into spanish inquisition, American Indians, Hiroshima, Slavery of the Blacks, the "Industrial Revolution" etc etc to re-hash all the wrongs done by so-called americans but that is QUITE a different thread....and not one I was interested in persuing here. Rather, I was looking to persue constructive ways/possibilities of moving ahead rather than backwards. The wrongs that have been done are DONE. Now how to get to a "better place"? Or perhaps you'd rather just bitch and moan for the next millenia or two about how evil the americans are. Not as productive you see? You may be soothing your hormones but really, you are accomplishing nothing productive. Better to try making the world a better place perhaps....

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xguru: *
The Jews on the other hand are very united as one people. There numbers are smaller than ours, but they speak with one voice (a sizeable majority of them for that matter).
[/QUOTE]

^
Agree.

Many scholars credit Judiaism for the survival of the Jewish people through millenia.

Through the diaspora and 20th century holocaust.

Their traditions remain constant and what unites them.

Even though there exists some disagreement over religious doctrine..they are not divided. Perhaps concentrating on similarities rather than divisions the important factor.