FYI, I live in a muhajir majority area and as two of my uncles are married in Urdu speaking families, I meet and interact with many urdu speaking ppl who express their opinion openly (without any lagi lipti), but I don’t come across anything supporting division on ethnic basis. You seem to have problem with Sindhis, but you must consider that ppl of Sindh (muahajirs as well as Sindhis) are nearer to each other as compared to 1980s because of growing intermarriages and attempt for division without proper public support and backing will cause major human tragedies.
Regarding reliance on official figures, I just say one can’t rely census data blindly, when our basic data collection is being handled by departments like NADRA and there are discrepancies and tampering starting from house count.
If the MQM could have established Jinnaphur, they would have.
They know if they try to seperate the capital of Sindh, millions of Sindhis, and people like Dr.Mirza, and Pir Pagara will be happy to send thousands of their gunmen to kill them.
This is a wet dream of many MQM extremists, which they know is not possible.
As for census figures, I also stated that they are unreliable as I think Urdu speakers were 60% at the time, not 49%. But that is the only official figures we have.
Even if the most transparent census is conducted under UN supervision, Urdu speakers will not be more than 55% of Karachi now (this is coming from a staunch Mohajir unlike many others who say that we are 80% or so) and Sindhis will be maximum 4% in Karachi. Similarly, Sindhis will not be more than 57% to 58% of Sindh aggregate.
So it is better to rely on the official census data. Or else petition the UN for a new census, which will be a breach of our already tattered national sovereignty.
If the MQM could have established Jinnaphur, they would have.
They know if they try to seperate the capital of Sindh, millions of Sindhis, and people like Dr.Mirza, and Pir Pagara will be happy to send thousands of their gunmen to kill them.
This is a wet dream of many MQM extremists, which they know is not possible.
They have tried already, and they failed.
Ah, the old Sindhi extremist thinking. Good that you are showing your real self.
As if Karachiites will happily open their chests for the dirty bullets of Sindhis. No sir, this is not 1992. Sindhis will be the worst hit by the mayhem that will ensue. Mind you, the worst hit!
Ok if for the time being we agree that Sindhis are 60% of Sindh, then try to live with this fact that they don't demand division and until they don't demand division is not possible as per Constitution of Pakistan.
Your argument would have been valid had that 60% population had a uniform representation across all areas. Fortunately or unfortunately, that is not the case as they are not even a significant minority in Karachi.
Also, Punjabis make 75% of their province but their province is on the verge of division. The same should happen to Sindh.
Hats off to your hatred for Sindhis and their language and not accepting their representation in Parliament.
Good that you have resorted to twisting the facts. And very clever to not mention the original hateful post in whose reply I used the word extremist. If someone says they will attack us with thousands of gunmen then you can't expect us to embrace them with open arms and offer our necks for slaughtering. Sorry sir, that will never happen.
I rest my case as I've already made very valid points and I don't want to argue with hate mongers who are threatening to carry out a genocide of Mohajirs. Just to state a fact, those who think they can subdue us are living in the lowest level of fool's paradise. They need to get registered at a facility for the mentally unstable.
Good that you have resorted to twisting the facts. And very clever to not mention the original hateful post in whose reply I used the word extremist. If someone says they will attack us with thousands of gunmen then you can't expect us to embrace them with open arms and offer our necks for slaughtering. Sorry sir, that will never happen.
I rest my case as I've already made very valid points and I don't want to argue with hate mongers who are threatening to carry out a genocide of Mohajirs. Just to state a fact, those who think they can subdue us are living in the lowest level of fool's paradise. They need to get registered at a facility for the mentally unstable.
Which facts you are talking about?
What do you think about your posts referring to past incidents between Sindhi-Muhajir. Were you promoting harmony and peace by referring to such incidents. Let me know about any major clashes between Sindhi-Muhajir during last 15 years. Garhe Murde ukhad ke, you can't divide Sindh.
What do you think about your posts referring to past incidents between Sindhi-Muhajir. Were you promoting harmony and peace by referring to such incidents. Let me know about any major clashes between Sindhi-Muhajir during last 15 years. Garhe Murde ukhad ke, you can't divide Sindh.
So you are happy with what #22 has said but are quick to launch an offensive when someone replies to hate mongering? Sorry sir, but this is called bigotry.
We can't forget the loss of life of thousands of people. If that means garhay murday ukharna then yes we will do that. Just ask the relatives of those died in the riots.
And you talked about the last 15 years. What about the last five days when Sindhi extremists set a bus on fire in Kemari and six people, including children, were burnt alive? What about the loss of life and property after Dec. 27, 2007 event? What about the attacks on settlers during the last week, as one poster mentioned in an earlier comment?
Sorry, but we will never accept any barrage of hate towards us and threats of carrying out a genocide. Tit for tat as the good old English saying goes. Don't expect us to offer our lives and properties for the marauders.
So you are happy with what #22 has said but are quick to launch an offensive when someone replies to hate mongering? Sorry sir, but this is called bigotry.
We can't forget the loss of life of thousands of people. If that means garhay murday ukharna then yes we will do that. Just ask the relatives of those died in the riots.
And you talked about the last 15 years. What about the last five days when Sindhi extremists set a bus on fire in Kemari and six people, including children, were burnt alive? What about the loss of life and property after Dec. 27, 2007 event? What about the attacks on settlers during the last week, as one poster mentioned in an earlier comment?
Sorry, but we will never accept any barrage of hate towards us and threats of carrying out a genocide. Tit for tat as the good old English saying goes. Don't expect us to offer our lives and properties for the marauders.
So you want to say during clashes between Sindhi-Muhajir in 1980s there was no loss of life of Sindhis? Taali dono hathon se bajti hai mere dost!
You can't prove your agenda about clash between Sindhi-Muhajir by referring to Kemari incident. Talking of December 27, 2007, it was not only Muhajirs which were affected by riots. Government offices, banks, shops, vehicles, etc were also set on fire in small towns of Sindh where there is hardly any Muhajir community.
So you want to say during clashes between Sindhi-Muhajir in 1980s there was no loss of life of Sindhis? Taali dono hathon se bajti hai mere dost!
You can't prove your agenda about clash between Sindhi-Muhajir by referring to Kemari incident. Talking of December 27, 2007, it was not only Muhajirs which were affected by riots. Government offices, banks, shops, vehicles, etc were also set on fire in small towns of Sindh where there is hardly any Muhajir community.
It is waste of time to discuss with this person. In another thread he hates mqm to the core of his heart and wants division of of Sindh according to muhajir Vs Sindh. Ignore this racist.
So you want to say during clashes between Sindhi-Muhajir in 1980s there was no loss of life of Sindhis? Taali dono hathon se bajti hai mere dost!
You can't prove your agenda about clash between Sindhi-Muhajir by referring to Kemari incident. Talking of December 27, 2007, it was not only Muhajirs which were affected by riots. Government offices, banks, shops, vehicles, etc were also set on fire in small towns of Sindh where there is hardly any Muhajir community.
I must say what a blind following to a rotten agenda such as Sindhism can make a person.
You have still not mentioned your response to #22. Kemari incident was perpetrated by Sindhis and mostly Mohajirs were burnt. What else can anyone call it? And they also killed people in Urdu speaking areas such as Nazimabad and Liaquatabad during that so-called peaceful yet unsuccessful strike.
As I've stated earlier, I don't want to argue with empty headed people who like to see thousands of gunmen attack Urdu speakers and carry out a genocide but get furious if the affected party retaliates.
I rest my case and I won't reply to your insane comments.
It is waste of time to discuss with this person. In another thread he hates mqm to the core of his heart and wants division of of Sindh according to muhajir Vs Sindh. Ignore this racist.
Yeah, talking about one's rights is called racism. But it is ok to threaten Mohajirs with genocide. Sindhis truly suffer from a high form of bigotry. I also rest my case as I don't want to argue with potential murderers with genocidal tendencies. May Sindh be divided soon. Amen!
It is waste of time to discuss with this person. In another thread he hates mqm to the core of his heart and wants division of of Sindh according to muhajir Vs Sindh. Ignore this racist.
I am against the division of any province as it opens up a pandoras box of provincialism, ethno-nationalism. However if Punjab is indeed divided, then the people of Sindh have every right to ask for the division of their province, if they so choose.
An inefficient governance will remain inefficient, if there are fifteen provinces or four provinces..
Perceptions of injustice
Babar Sattar
Saturday, August 20, 2011
The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad.
There is an emotive debate raging across Pakistan on the pros and cons of reorganising the territorial boundaries of Punjab. In this context a few basic issues need to be addressed at the outset. One, the Constitution of Pakistan is an organic document that doesn’t treat discussions about reorganisation of existing provincial boundaries as sacrilegious. Having said that, the mechanism provided by our Constitution (as opposed to constitutions of other states such as India) to redefine territorial boundaries has been made hard enough to ensure that any such change is the product of consensus at the federal and provincial level.
Pursuant to Article 238(4) of the Constitution, the boundary of a province can only be redrawn through a constitutional amendment ie with a two-thirds parliamentary majority at the federal level. And such amendment can only be sent to the president for assent after it has been approved by a two-thirds majority of the assembly of the province whose boundary is to be altered.
What this means is that unless the government and the opposition in the centre, as well as the relevant province, agree there can be no redrawing of provincial borders. The PPP knows this. And this is what suggests that its announcement to carve a Seraiki province out of Punjab is merely electioneering gimmickry aimed at stealing additional votes in southern Punjab. Stirring up separatist passions in Punjab without making any serious effort to engage political parties across the isle in a serious discussion over how to address the concerns of minority communities within Punjab and other provinces might seem typical Zardari-ingenuity at first, but is actually dangerous. Will pro-autonomy groups within other provinces not seek the redress of their concerns while the subject is open? Even for the maestro of deviousness, it might not be possible to shield other provinces from the flames of separatism being ignited in Punjab.
Two, any time that the limits of one administrative unit of a federation are redefined, the legal impact of such change affects all federating units. Any such amendment in the Constitution of Pakistan will require consequential amendments in other provisions as well. The articles providing for representation of provinces within the National Assembly and the Senate will need to be revisited. A new NFC award might be required: distribution of resources satisfactory for a united Punjab as the biggest province might not be acceptable to its smaller successor units. Thus assuming that super-majority consensus can be miraculously generated at the federal and Punjab levels for the creation of a Seraiki province, a constitutional amendment bill proposing the division of Punjab alone will still impact the rights of all provinces and must be the product of a serious constitutional debate.
Three, the reasons for dividing up territories and creating states and provinces etc are seldom administrative and almost always political. The argument then that redistribution of provincial boundaries is welcome so long as it is undertaken on administrative grounds in nothing but gibberish. In any diverse society each citizen is born with multiple identities: nationality, religion, language, ethnicity, tribe/clan, gender, class etc. Which of these identities shape the socio-political consciousness of a citizen (or a group that he/she associates with) is a product of politics and not administrative needs or convenience. Thus it is the political programme of a group or community within a territorial unit that inspires the demand for division or autonomy and is backed by the conviction that such change will result in greater self-governance, empowerment and justice for such group or community.
It is hard to draw a meaningful distinction between the perception of injustice and of being disempowered and disenfranchised entertained by an individual, group or community and the reality of it. Belief is not always backed by empirical evidence or verifiable facts but still remains possibly the most potent trigger for action. Allegations of bias and grievances rooted in the sense of being treated unfairly and unjustly cannot be dispelled by simply rejecting them. If a group of people view themselves as a community or sub-community, in view of their history or ethnic, linguistic or religious identity, who is to say whether such self-conceived sense of identity is true or false? If such group or community believes it is being treated unfairly and political and administrative structures of the state are rendering it politically impotent, who is to decide that such resentment merits no attention? If a community views itself as a minority and struggles for greater political empowerment, who is to rule whether such struggle is legitimate or not?
If a citizen group conceives of itself as a distinct political community, forms a sizable population within a substantial territory that is geographically congruous, and wishes to collectively decide its own matters, there is no reason in principle to deny it the right to greater autonomy. Also notwithstanding the political interests of Punjab’s ruling elite, the division of Punjab might actually be good for the average Punjabi. Currently, he is the object of hostility and suspicion and held responsible for deprivations of fellow citizens across other provinces, largely due to the size of Punjab. Probably once there are a few Punjabs of the same size and influence as the remaining provinces will others realise that the Punjabi is as disempowered and destitute as the rest of his brethren, and the cause of distress of the average Pakistani cannot be removed by continuing to divide Pakistan up into smaller and smaller administrative units.
Will one, twelve or sixteen new provinces change the fact that our political parties are autocracies? Territorial subdivision will not bolster political autonomy or self-governance for it will still be the handful of individuals heading the political parties of Pakistan who will decide who gets to run in elections and represent ordinary people in each constituency. Till such time that political parties – the gatekeepers of our democracy – remain undemocratic themselves, a sense of political empowerment will remain a forlorn hope. Will redrawing the internal map of Pakistan change the fact that our politics is driven by patronage and not policy?
The object of being voted into power for all political parties is to secure access to the resources of the state and then use/abuse state power and distribute resources amongst its voters and supporters to strengthen the personalised system of patronage of party leaders.
Given that in our country the purpose of politics is not to devise policies that affect all citizens but to control power and resources for the benefit of a few, the vast majority of the citizens will always feel disempowered irrespective of which political party is in office. In any constitutional democracy basic citizen rights are guaranteed by the constitution and upheld by state institutions.
In Pakistan, the ordinary citizen needs personal access to local, regional or national elites to secure even his most fundamental rights. You need such personal access to register an FIR or avoid police harassment, to be heard fairly by a magistrate, to register a property deed and to find a job. This reality doesn’t change whether you are North Punjabi, South Punjabi, Pushtun, Hazarawal, Sindhi or Baloch. How will your personal fate be any different in a smaller province if the horse that you bet on lost the election?
So long as our system of governance and basic state institutions remain dysfunctional and every ruling party believes that its sole responsibility is to its supporters and not the entire citizenry, any party that forms government with simple majority support in elections, where not even half the population votes, will rule over a populace that feels largely disempowered. The debate over the creation of more provinces is just a fight over the distribution of spoils between competing elites and bears no relevance to the ordinary Pakistani.
Sindhi-speaking themselves sowed the idea of the division of the province by introducing rural and urban quota in 70s. No other province in Pakistan has
such a division.