Sikhism

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Xtreme,

You are forgetting that I have objections for the rules when they are forced on others, Islamic dress code is forced on women in many muslims coutries. I will have a big problem if I was told how to dress up.

I have a problem with words like Kaffir -non believer which denoted that my believe is not reconganized or muslim believes are better then non-muslims. Muslim God is better then other people's God and they are better then rest of us. Kaffirs is used in a derogatory way.

Idea of Kaffirs going to hell fire does not go very well with me....I just don't believe in it at all and it is cruel.

Nowhere in Sikhism it says that God will punish people who are not Sikhs or if you don't dress up certain way you would be punished or only people with turbans will go to heaven and rest will be punished.

I have posted rules regarding Sikhism and they are more important principles then anything else.

22

You are forgetting that I have objections for the rules when they are forced on others, Islamic dress code is forced on women in many muslims coutries. I will have a big problem if I was told how to dress up.

We have already discussed that there are dress codes in any walk of life. Some are different to others. In outer Mongolia, the natives might wear crocodile teeth as part of a religious ceremony, but that is their business. Why should it concern us? Worry about yourself, and then come and give us advice.

23

Xtreme,

You have only addressed part of my post....how about other aspects of the religion that effect non-muslims negatively.

Your example of tribal is out of context....you cannot compare tribal ritual with one of world's major religion.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 25, 2000).]

24

I’m sure everyone agrees to the fact that Mr.Xtreme HAS proved his point…over and over…
Here in USA (in Christians) there are AMISH-people. The women cover their heads, sleeves all the way to the hands, the men keep beards/ shave moustach…they still use horses and carriages…(no cars, tractors, washing-machine etc

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/wink.gif

They choose to live that way, it’s THEIR choice…
Like Mr.Xtreme has clearified again and again, one cannot scrutinize others faith and religion just due to PERSONAL-OPINIONS…
Live and let live…

25

Blandmunda007,

<>

I absolutely agree, therefore nobody should be refered to as 'Kaffirs' or non-believers and told that they would go to hell fire. All religions should be considered equal. No more wars based on religion, equal rights for minorities in all muslim countries.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 25, 2000).]

26

Idea of Kaffirs going to hell fire does not go very well with me…I just don’t believe in it at all and it is cruel.

Nowhere in Sikhism it says that God will punish people who are not Sikhs or if you don’t dress up certain way you would be punished or only people with turbans will go to heaven and rest will be punished.<<<<

rani, Islam also warns muslims and not just kafirs of hell fire. the dress code for women and men is PRESCRIBED for the muslims… not ENFORCED. there are plenty of muslims who do abide by them and they are better muslims than the ones who dont… just like the sikhs who abide by sikhism are considered more religious than the ones who dont.

as far as your claim that sikhism doesnt do this and that and Islam does this… well sikhism is not Islam. so the differences are expected. if there were no difference sikhism might have been atleast more popular in india… and not just punjab. so its just another regional religional with borrowed stuff from here and there.

all you have to say about sikhism is ones self examination. btw bhullah shah has written much better stuff on self consiousness and inner purity than anything you have ever seen in your life. so expand your horizons and read him… and you will know that we have been there done that too.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif

27

Mundyaa, Bullah has also written....Mullah maarda mayeiN ni mullah maarda:)

parh kitaabaN fazil hoyeoN, te naam rakha liya qazi.
pharh talwaar dilawar banneya, te naam rakha liya ghazi.
makkay ja ja hajj guzaaray te naam rakha liya haazi.
ajjay tooN Bulleya kujh nai khaTeya, je tooN yaar na keeta raazi.

I think on these forums all we are discussing politics and society as we see through our eyes. Religion and particularly God is not in our comprehension yet. May be some day we will realize that.

28

parh parh aalam faazal hoyon, kadi mun apnay wich varya hee nain

pujh pujh janda mandar maseeti, jhera ghar bheta onoun pharya hee nain

bhullah shah gal tayyon mukadi, jad mein noun dillon bhulayai

29

Rani, it seems that you are more scared of the hell defined by Islam then your own religion - otherwise do you care ?

Just curious

30

Zman,

How did you comeup with this conclusion....I don't believe in heaven or hell.

31

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Zman,

How did you comeup with this conclusion....I don't believe in heaven or hell.**
[/quote]

Then you are an athaest more by belief & sikh by chance of being born to a sikh family.

(Note from Admin: Please mind your language and refrain from personal attacks. Discuss the subject, not the participants.)

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited July 25, 2000).]

32

No wonder ZZ was promoting Kushwant Singh's views...he's an RSS supporter!

[quote]

The communists, the Sena and the RSS are the only ones who can discipline the nation. The RSS feels Sikhs are inseparable from Hindus. this is why despite Bhindranwale's followers having attacked the RSS office in Punjab, the RSS kept quiet and didn't allow differences to be created between Hindus and Sikhs. People are losing the respect they had for the BJP, but the respect and faith they had in the RSS remains. Sena has the capacity to acquire that status, I believe.
[/quote]

Khushwant Singh
(Published in Saamna on Jan 23, Thackeray's 71st b'day.)

Saamna is an RSS daily where Kushwant Singh is a regular writer.

Rani are you sure you are a sikh? Seeing as you posted this article originally I assume you are also an RSS supporterwhich is strange as RSS is a Hindutva organisation.

33

Rani : that just proves my point. If you dont believe in heaven or hell then why all this fuss when someone calls you Kafir(a person to burned in hell). This is kinda recursive, you are opposed to the word but do not believe what the meaning of the word is. I'm confused........

34

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
<>
All I would say is that u never fail to amaze me.
I am not promoting anyone. All I said was that website article u quoted was junk. To give an example of scholars of Sikhism, I mentioned Khushwant Singh. There are others, some of them are not Sikhs as well.
As far as Khushwant Singh praising RSS for not letting the communal divide happen between Hindus and Sikhs, whom u expect him to praise in stead, so called secular congress??

35

Zman,

Words such as 'Kaffir' are used to dehumanizing people, it is a put down - in other words it says my God is better then your God. This is even taken further by saying Kaffirs will burn in hell fire (even God hates them) therefore followers are justified in hating them.

Concept of live and let live cannot come in play if one group insists on name calling and spearding hatred towards others.

36

Kafir is just an arabic term for 'non moslem'
Rani who is not new to bashing hating & vilifying islam & moslem on indo link,what do you think Sikhs call us .Dont they call us 'non sikh'& dont keep us on there gurudwara mailing lists.SHOULD I COMPLAIN FOUL THAT SIKHS DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ME JUST B/C IM NOT SIKH,no i dont as so should you Rani not complain when Moslem call you non moslem just we are called 'non hindu ' by hindus.
There million of indian prefering to live in guf countries where they are KAFIR,but they prefer to stay there than there own hindu country india??

Why Rani you call in indo forum moslemgirl gutter,insecure & when we talk about islam u call it propoganda & ask to take it to moslem forum when you yuorself enjoy so much attention on sikhism here,.Be thankful to moslem for being generous & yo unlike ther sikhs narow minded,jelous,mean.cranky whining .

37

Nowhere in Sikh scriptures anybody is called non-believers, or that non-believers will go to hell. Lots of muslims live in Land of Satan (US) what has that to do with this argument. I personaly will not live in non-secular country.

You should talk with the administration of the forum if you don't want non-muslims to post here. I will leave if they want me to, I am not dying to come here.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 26, 2000).]

38

Nowhere in Sikh scriptures anybody is called non-believers, or that non-believers will go to hell. Lots of muslims live in Land of Satan (US) what has that to do with this argument. I personaly will not live in non-secular country.

You should talk with the administration of the forum if you don’t want non-muslims to post here. I will leave if they want me to, I am not dying to come here.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 26, 2000).]**
[/QUOTE]

RANI,DO WE CALL YOUR POST ABOUT SIKISM& RULES IN SIKHS PROPOGANDA HERE??

We expect of all,who enjoy attention of moslems about 80 posts in one thread & and 40 posts in this thread,not act mean when some moslem poast painstakenly(u know it is an effort to do so )you call it gutter,take it to moslem forum,your propoganda wont work on us.Of al atleast should not have said this when no other hindu said it.You could ignore the post that any member has right to do,

No i dont intend to make you go ,nor should there be policy by admin. here. Ithink islam is much too resilient to need protection against nascent sikh off shoot.I would think less of islam if it couldnt withstand crticism from likes of you.All im asking is reciprocal behaviour on part of you and islam bashing ppl. like you to be civil,patient,respectful,of other religion in your cas Islam.thats it.

What do you care what you are called by moslems.Label is not important. Im non sikh agreed. I dont comply with kara kacha kes,kangan & kirpan.I will be less than sikh in your gurudwara whatever you want to call me is not important Similarly in the moslem world non observent of islamic rules are considered non moslem or any other name.Whats the big deal ‘kafir’ hell,its implied in all religion non believers are out of away from that religion.It doesnt matter what any one says.
Lots moslem live in non moslem majority govt. they dont expect shariat law govt. either.Whats that got to do with your argument.If you live in moslem majority country & if majority of ppl.of that country want shariat law ,RANI JI IT IS CALLED DEMOCRACY ,SUCH IS THE NATURE OF THE SYSTEM .

Yes yu can live or leave ,its everybodies choice but you cant question the will of majority in democracy,be it pakistan,afghanistan,iran,libya,syria, AS FOR THE MONARCHY RAJA IN INDIA LIKE HARI SINGH OF KASHMIR DID WHATEVER HE WANTED SO WILL SAUDI & GULF & BRUNEI & OTHER MOSLEM MONARCHY.
So where is your genuine grip with whom or for what ? i know u wish all moslem dissapear from the earth as u follow anear sheikh & aru Shouries philosophy BUT THAT AINT GONE HAPPEN.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/redface.gif

):< )

39

Yes yu can live or leave ,its everybodies choice but you cant question the will of majority in democracy,be it pakistan,afghanistan,iran,libya,syria<<

Since when afghanistan, iran, libya, Pakistan are democracies they are religious theocracies. In democracies rights of minorities are protected. To make distiction between people and preach that non-believers will come to a bad end because they don't follow muslim path is wrong. As I have already said there is no such thing as non-believers everybody believes in something.

This discussion is not going anywhere therefore I think I will rest my case.

40

In democracies rights of minorities are protected. To make distiction between people and preach that non-believers will come to a bad end because they don’t follow muslim path is wrong. As I have already said there is no such thing as non-believers everybody believes in something.<<<

yup, the rights of kashmiries, christians, dalits and sikhs are protected. maybe they should have levelled golden temple when they had a chance so you would know what democracy really is like they did to babri mosque. Maybe the chrisitans could share a thing or two about that with you rani.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif