I have been repeatedly told that parts of the Sikh faith were derived from Islam.
How true is this claim?
I tried to touch this topic in the past, but due to outrageous retorts from an un-conversant crowd, I seized my reply. If you would like to share something, please feel free.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/000849.html …that’s where I tried to prove about Nanak being Muslim, but our much-loved members presented him something as its gray, its large, its has a trunk and big ears and is the symbol of American democratic party but its not an Elephant…. Afsos hoa kay hum nay un ki dil-jo’ee ki… anyways, I have updated the image link over there, you can continue with the same or as you like..
but trust me the answer you are looking for is beyond the reach of this getto. Almost all Muslims very fanatical point him as a Hindu seed, while his actual followers call him a founder of an independent religion. Hindus somehow are also unable to accept him. Yet all three groups are empty at hands.
wa’salam
well, i would be interested in HOW did sikhism spread among hindus? i've seen some claim over and over and over again how liberal sikhism really is. Well with that kindof liberal thinking the only person sikh in the world would be the one who invented this religion himself.
Why were the followers of this faith... mostly punjabi only. was it the language barrier thus making it a strictly regional religion and not a global one. Did they use the same methods that are being used by christian missionaries today to convert low caste oppressed hindus, to convert low caste punjabies to sikhism? Did race play a factor in this..... that because other punjabies felt that sikhism was invented and preached by a punjabi they followed it blindly thus escaping from the brahman's never ending shoodar cult?
I also find it disturbing that sikhs made no efforts to convert folks from other states than punjab. did they think that the equality etc. they preach should only exist among shoodars and low castes of punjab? thats a flawed thinking by itself.
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited July 23, 2000).]
I am also interested in learning about Sikhism and Sikhs...all we have ever heard about them are jokes and horror of 1947..
is there a site on sikhism..?
Muzna ji, there was discussions going on on the topic in other threads also, so I did not answer your question earlier. Here an article on origin and virtues of Sikhism by an prominent author which may be a bit helpful to you understanding the issue.
The following is from the book:
Sikhs and Sikhism
A View with a Bias by I. J. SIngh
His email I beleive is [email protected]
I think it was the historian Toynbee who said that Vedantic and Judaic disciplines
- the two great religious systems of the world - met in northern India. Collided
would be more like it. Their confrontation spawned a new order - Sikhism - which
has some elements of each but in other matters, rejects both. Toynbee saw in
Sikhism a synthesis of the best of the two noble religious systems. Many Sikhs
look at their religion not as a philosophy of synthesis but as a new, revealed
religion with little debt to the existing traditions.
Clearly, religions or any philosophic systems for that matters do not arise in a
vacuum. A novel, fresh way of living must reflect on the old even if only to reject
it but in that process becomes influenced by what is rejected. Therefore in most
beliefs and practices, a pattern of continuity between the old and the new is
never very difficult to discern. That is no proof that the new is merely a
revamping and repackaging of the old, nor that it is a new superstructure
constructed entirely or primarily on the old substructure. Some historians spend
lifetimes counting bricks to see which ones or how many in the foundation of
Sikhism are from the old edifice, others expend their energy denying in toto the
existence of any old masonry in the new institution.
Even the most radical new design must derive in some part from the pre-existing
one even though in some fundamentally new ways. All new life emerges from the
old and revolutions do not occur in a void. In the final analysis, the proof of how
new is new rests with how revolutionized, changed, charged or new do the
believers feel. If both Hindus and Muslims lay claim to some features of Sikhism
(as they do), that is a compliment to the Sikhs and their dynamic, young religion.
Nobody wants to assert a kinship with one not admired. And such contentions do
not detract from the revolutionary or the revealed nature of Sikhism though
many Sikhs would like to disavow any connection to the old roots, whether
Semitic or Hindu Vedantic.
Like the semitic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - Sikhism is a religion
of the Book, Hinduism is not. Where Hinduism has a virtual army of gods and
goddesses, Sikhism is like Judaism - strictly monotheistic. The Judaic God is an
immanent God and an angry, wrathful, revengeful one. With Christianity came a
transformation and humanization of this God into a loving, forgiving father image.
Because of the plethora of gods and goddesses, the Hindu God is not so easily
defined but is probably transcendental in nature. The Sikh concept of God is one
who is both immanent and transcendental, righteously just but also merciful.
Where theologians and their ilk love to write treatises, this very short treatment
will have to suffice even though it is equally unjust to the Judaic, Hindu or Sikh
views of God.
Part of the problem in our understanding lies in the fact that both Judaism and
Hinduism are ancient systems with their origins lost in antiquity. When it comes
to Hinduism the historical record is even murkier. The old, diffuse religions of
mythology prevailed not only in Greece, Norway, Rome or Egypt but similar
conceptualizations were also the underpinning of ancient Indian civilization. To
me, many of the gods and goddesses of Hinduism are not so different from the
heroic and some not so noble figures of Greek mythology, and should be similarly
interpreted. Certainly the stories about Echo, Narcissus, Hercules, Aphrodite etc
in Greek mythology have no literal reality. The stories in Hindu mythology about
Brahma, Indra, Shiva, Durga, Lakshmi, beginning of the world, even the
Ramayana and the Bhagvad Geeta are apocryphal and not meant to be literally
understood. In spite of India's astronomical population, there are perhaps more
gods and goddesses in Hindu mythology than people.
In Europe however, a new religion with a defined theology - Christianity -
unrelated to the native mythology and independent of it in origin took hold and
supplanted it. Pre-christian mythology surely influenced many Christian beliefs
and practices but it is easy to see that the two - Greek mythology and
Christianity - are distinct entities and remain so. Mythology served its purposes in
helping early man define his place in the universe. Later, the organized religion of
Christianity provided a clearer ethical framework, a more sophisticated system for
defining the nature of man and his inner reality in relation to society. In Hinduism
however, a radically different kind of development occurred. The Vedantic system
was superimposed on the existing mythology but did not displace and replace it.
Instead the religion of mythology became overlaid with a patina of highly
sophisticated Vedantic philosophy; the two become so inseparable that Hinduism
came to be defined through mythology. Mythology and philosophy
became so enmeshed in the common mind and daily practice that it became well
nigh impossible to identify the individual strands. That remains true even today.
At least two major religions - Buddhism and Sikhism - devoid of mythological
baggage did originate in India. Buddhism has been pretty much lost to its native
soil although it is widely extant in many neighboring countries. Sikhism has
endured because of its discrete theology, its proven ability to fight for survival
and its distinct symbols. Though under constant assault it may even be at the
threshold of a renaissance at this time.
Hinduism contends that God has taken human birth nine times and will once
again, sometime in the future. Christianity presents passionate arguments for
Christ as the son of God - begotten not made. The preamble to Sikhism defines
God as one who is free of birth and death. Worship only the one Immaculate, all
pervasive Creator, not the Gurus and not any holy book, say the Sikh Gurus.
And we are all sons and daughters of God. God is to be found neither on a
mountaintop by a recluse nor by the celibate clergyman in the service of the
Church. Marry, have a family and live a productive life of honest earnings and
share what you have, keeping your mind attuned to the infinite within you. God
the creator is revealed through his creation, not to live in harmony with it is a sin.
Ritual animal sacrifice is therefore, not right though Sikhs are not vegetarians by
any religious law. In referring to God as the male father figure, we are limited by
the paucity of language and thought in expressing ideas. God in the Sikh
view has no gender, race, lineage or form; He is free of all physical attributes that
man can conceive. Sikhs refer to God as father, mother, brother, sister and
friend. A god who is a he or she is a lesser god not worthy of worship.
God is to be remembered not for an hour in a temple or a church on a sunday
but must become an integral, internalized part of one's life, one who is never
forgotten even for a moment. By analogies from farming - "The body is the soil,
good deeds the plough," from trading or from ordinary habits of simple people
-"Make truth your prayer, faith your prayer mat" - the message of Sikhism was
simple yet direct: Truth is high, higher yet is truthful living. Therefore, Sikhs do
not speak of a sabbath, a holy day of atonement or remembrance, nor do they
ascribe special significance to any day of the week or month or any hour of the
day. Any chore no matter how mundane, performed with an awareness of the
Infinite within is sacred; even the most sacred task accomplished without that
perception is profane. Similarly a day, an hour, even a moment spent in God's
grace is sacred, else it's wasted. One cannot buy indulgences from God by asking
a holy man to perform prayers, rituals or ceremonies on one's behalf, no matter
how pious the priest or how expensive the ceremony.
A literal interpretation of mythology can be risky and Guru Nanak offered a
surprisingly modern view of creation when he spoke of the void before creation,
and of many galaxies and universes - without end and innumerable. He clearly
refuted as nonsense any claims to knowing exactly what hour, day or year the
world began or when it would end.
Perhaps the most visible point of divergence of Sikhism from Judaic philosophy
lies in the concept of original sin which is not found in the Sikh view. Sikhs believe
that human life is special - a rare opportunity to serve both man and God. The
human body is the mansion of God, a temple to be maintained well and healthy.
There is no room for mortification of the flesh, whether by fasting or otherwise.
The sin lies not in living comfortably or well but in not using one's blessings in
service to others, for that is the way to find God. To leave the world a little better
is a duty; not to try, a sin. Sikhism asserts that the kingdom of heaven is open
to all irrespective of caste, creed, sex or ethnic origin. Sexism and racism of any
sort thus become failures in the practice of Sikh teaching. Those who are at one
with God and Guru are the chosen people, not those of any particular caste,
creed or ethnicity. Between man and God no middlemen exist, no brokers are
necessary. This also means that the authority and
the role of the clergy are limited - defined by the scholarship and the persona of
the man, not by canon.
In biology hybridization is known to produce a more spirited stock. This is true of
horses as it is of people and I suspect, equally valid for philosophies. Whether it
was the Aryans from the Caucasus, the hordes of Alexander the Great or the
innumerable invasions through the Khyber Pass, Punjab was the fertile field for
such mixtures of both people and ideas. The Punjabi stock therefore, turned out
more vigorous, energetic and outgoing. So is their new ideology of Sikhism - a
religion of joy, not suffering. When Christianity was young many Jews accepted
Jesus as the promised Messiah but remained Jews - for Jesus. Now 2000 years
later, the movement is not as strong but still exists. Sikhism is only 500 years
old and if you count from the time that Guru Gobind Singh gave it the present
form, about 300 years young. Three centuries are barely a drop in the bucket of
human history. It is hardly surprising that some followers have one leg in the
boat of Hinduism and another in Sikhism. There are many Hindus who
never formally accepted Sikhism - Sindhis, for instance - yet the only scriptures
they read are Sikh, the only house of worship they know is Sikh. Others attend
both Hindu and Sikh or Muslim and Sikh services. Christianized Muslims (Morisos)
of Africa come to mind as a parallel.
Almost from their inception Sikhs have had to fight and die for their religion. It is
no wonder that some followers practiced Sikhism at home but remained most
reluctant to be so identified publicly. Under similar duress, the Marrano Jews
remained Jews at home but outside, adopted the rituals and the lifestyles of
Christians. One intriguing historical curiosity that I often saw as a child is worth
noting. Since Sikhs were always fighting for survival, many Punjabi Hindu families
would dedicate one son to Sikhism. By making one child a Sikh, they
acknowledged their debt to and respect for the Sikh way of life, while at the same
time they confessed the inability of the entire family to walk that perilous path.
If Sikhism brought the idea of eventual justice - Karma - from Hinduism, it freed
the doctrine of its overtones of sexism and shackles of the caste system.
Curiously, Islam found no place for music in worship; Hinduism on the other
hand, not only exalted the development of music to a fine art but even mandated
dancing girls and vestal virgins. Sikhism like Christianity recognized the ability of
music to move people to a spiritual high minus, of course, the dancing girls. In
Hinduism congregational worship is unimportant; much more significant - even to
the exclusion of everything else - is private meditation. Judaism with its two
children - Christianity and Islam - emphasized much more the social aspect of
man's obligation and congregational worship became supreme. Sikhism
recognizes the worth of both. Private meditation is important for it allows man to
discover the truth within. Congregational worship is necessary for it defines man
in terms of the universe outside of him. In the Sikh view, the mystical
presence of God pervades a congregation in mindful prayer; such a congregation
remains in Sikh doctrine the supreme source of all temporal authority.
The essence of a Sikh life could be summarized as having three important, like
the legs of a stable stool: a life of honest work, honestly spent; sharing the
rewards of such a life with fellow men; and both of those activities to be
accomplished with a mind centered on the infinite within. Nobody would deny the
worth of the first two commandments, many such as the prominent writer
Khushwant fail to acknowledge that if man were more cognizant of the Infinite
within, he would be more aware of his place within the creation and more in tune
with the fundamental unity of all of God's creation. All creation, human and
otherwise, would then be less subject to man's puffed up sense of self. That
third leg of the stool, an essential element of Sikh teaching, allows Man to look
beyond the self at human life as a rare opportunity to enrich his environment
including his fellow creatures.
There are other ways in which Sikhism departs from both the Judaic and Hindu
traditions and which stem from the enhanced place of the lay follower in Sikhism.
For instance the concept seen in Christianity of the clergy as shepherds leading a
flock, or the primary role of the Brahmin as the essential middleman are
anathema to Sikhs. Since a middleman or broker is not recognized, the power
and authority of the clergy is necessarily curtailed. The scriptures are available to
all - laity or clergy, men or women, high of birth or otherwise. Parenthetically I
should add that Hindu scriptures are not available to the lower castes and may
not be read by women. Also, the Council of Narbonne in 1229 forbade the
possession of any part of the Bible by laymen; this was not corrected until
centuries later. In Sikhism no one may deny another the right to attend or
perform any aspect of any Sikh service and it need not be only in a gurudwara
but can be anywhere, even a house; no approval from any clergy for any religious
service is necessary. It is worth noting that, because Sikhism is so young, the
compilation, authenticity and authorship of the Sikh scriptures are clearly and
simply established. Such a claim is not easily made by many of the older religious
systems.
It seems to me that when man finds himself in conflict with his environment as he
inevitably must, the Judeo-Christian and the Hindu-Vedantic traditions provide
him diametrically opposite ways of dealing with it. The primarily western
Judeo-Christian outlook exemplified by the North-American lifestyle says: "The
world is not as it should be and I am going to change the outer reality to be
consonant with what I want it to be. I am going to master nature, recast it into
my own view and make a difference even if I die trying." Frequently both things
happen. Technological revolutions are unleashed, and we change the world
around us to what we want it to be. But the price we pay is spiritual, and
horrendous. Just look at the disintegration of the individual, dissolution of the
family and collapse of society; otherwise our
psychiatrists and lawyers would not be so busy. On the other hand in a similar
conflict with the environment the Asian approach epitomized by the
Hindu-Vedantic attitude is dramatically different. It says in effect: "The external
world is not as it should be. But there is a universe within the self which is infinite
and far more beautiful. I am going to close my eyes, turn inward and be at
peace." The desired result is achieved but at what cost? One can exist for 2000
years in filth, amidst injustice, yet the mind is at peace and all is right with the
world. Progress can become unnecessary, if not impossible or undesirable.
Clearly, both attitudes are wanting. Sikhism directs that one be at peace within
and at the same time be externally directed so as to make a difference. Vedantic
Hinduism regards the body as a prison for the soul, this results in a curious
unwordliness or other wordliness in Hinduism. Sikhism regards the body as the
temple of God who is to be discovered by serving and living with fellow
humans. Hindu mythology would tell us this world is unreal, a dream, not a
tangible reality - Sikhism would agree only so that one may remain detached from
this world, and as long as one remembers that this world is also true and it is by
truthful living in this world that one will find the God within each of us. Be like the
lotus that may exist in a cesspool yet remains unblemished but serves others by
its fragrance.
I.J. Singh
June 5, 1992
Comparative religious study is always a hard stuff. One ends up proving to be equally ignorant of all religions.
Ullu, I agree with your statement. Saying this religion was derived from that or it is offshoot of this and that are very ignorant statements.
What an article! Author says, Buddhism has no mythology. What are Jatak Kathas? Sikhism has no mythology! What is role of Dharma Raj and what Chitra and Gupta stand for, albeit a part of Hindu mythology, they are there in Gurubani. Author has some 'Hindu opinion of god' as if vedantis and sankhya followers have same version of god, what about Hindu philosophies that dont have god explicitly. Author does not bother about this diversity in Hinduism and is perhaps unaware. Then he goes on to give idea of god in Sikhism. I am not finding link to the beutiful Hymn by Shankaracharya, reading which one would start questioning the difference at least told by the author.
There is very little in philosophy that Sikhism derives from Islam or Judaism or whatever. Reading 'Jap ji' itself will tell you how heavily medieveal Vaishnavite concepts rule in it. 'Karma', 'Reincarnation' name it! This is only recent politically inspired game to show that Sikhs have some fundamentally different philosophy.
Thanks Chann-ji,
That's quite enlightening.
ullu,
Remaining true to your nick?
ZZ, may be you should read the sub title of the article again..."A view with a bias by IJ Singh".
I didn't say I agree with everything in the article but you sure came to your favourite "politically inspired game" of proving that Sikhs are Hindus. Author has clearly stated in the beginning that there is nothing created in void, everything new is based in one way or the other on what was before it. So is true about sikhism. Who knows on what previous beliefs the Hindu philosophies of karma and incarnation were based on. I am sure it was not like there was nothing and then one fine day Hinduism was created by God.
[quote]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
ZZ, may be you should read the sub title of the article again..."A view with a bias by IJ Singh".
I didn't say I agree with everything in the article but you sure came to your favourite "politically inspired game" of proving that Sikhs are Hindus. Author has clearly stated in the beginning that there is nothing created in void, everything new is based in one way or the other on what was before it. So is true about sikhism. Who knows on what previous beliefs the Hindu philosophies of karma and incarnation were based on. I am sure it was not like there was nothing and then one fine day Hinduism was created by God.
[/quote]
I am not so worried about bias, everyone has his own. The point is ignorance and when u attempt a scholarly article as author has done, one better know what he is talking. As far as my political game is concerned, I have give certain pointers which emphasise my points. Not much political, since there are only handful of sikhs on the forum. You could try to refute it. That will at least lead you to reading gurubani which perhaps u have not read. (Last time when I posted parts of gurubani, ur reaction was 'is that there' and then I gave u the page numbers. take care.
yeah author should have contacted the famous scholar on Sikhism and Sikhs Mr ZZ:) before writing this article.
Does that also mean that you being a Hindu remember every verse along with its page number in Ramayan and Geeta? Or it is only Sikh scriptures that you pick and chose to use in support of your political views?
well, chanmahi, although, i am not much of a scholar in anything, if this bloke is a scholar, so am i.
Ek Omkar (One God)
Sat Nam (True Name)
Karta Purakh (Creater)
Nir Bhau (Fearless)
Nir Vair (Foeless)
Akaal Murat (Immortal)
Ajuni (Unborn)
Sai Bhang (Self Creater)
Gur Parsad (Greatest Teacher)
Jap (Reciete)
Ad Sach (True begining)
Jugad sach (True end)
Hai Bhi Sach (Is True)
Nanak (Says Nanak)
Hosi Bhi Sach (Will be true)
[quote]
Originally posted by Banta Singh:
*Ek Omkar (One God)
Sat Nam (True Name)
Karta Purakh (Creater)
Nir Bhau (Fearless)
Nir Vair (Foeless)
Akaal Murat (Immortal)
Ajuni (Unborn)
Sai Bhang (Self Creater)
Gur Parsad (Greatest Teacher)
Jap (Reciete)
Ad Sach (True begining)
Jugad sach (True end)
Hai Bhi Sach (Is True)
Nanak (Says Nanak)
Hosi Bhi Sach (Will be true) *
[/quote]
Thats Allah , prophet and holy book much as in Islam....so there are resemblances..
Banta Singh--- are you saying, that there is a connection between Islam and Sikhism?
My friend
There is a connection between all the religions. All routes lead to the same destination, 'God'. They all teach us peace and love and be good to each other.
It may seem strange to some when they learn about hindus worshiping 35 million Gods but infact even the Hindus only worship only one God. All the 35m Gods are reincarnations of 'Vishnu' (The Creator)
So the connection between all the religions of the world is that we are all created by the same 'God' and will be treated in the same way regardless of our faiths.
The Sikh religion emerged during the early 16th century in the state of Punjab in North India. The founder of this faith was Guru Nanak, who from his childhood was attracted to both Hindu and Muslim saints. Born a Hindu, but also inspired by the teachings of Islam, he began to preach the message of unity of both religions. According to him, the basic teachings of both faiths were essentially the same. Nanak attracted many followers and came to be known as a Guru or a teacher. His disciples came together to form a new religious tradition called Sikhism.