Signs of the messiah (part 2) the series of mujaddadeen

--------------- ** The promise: **

Abu huraira reports, prophet of allah, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, said that for this * ummah * Allah will keep appointing * mujaddadeen * on the start of each century.
( ** Abu daud ** volume 2, page 241)
( ** Mashkuaat ** page 36 )

--------------- ** The fulfillment: **

All * Ulema * agree upon the truth of this hadith, and the happenings that followed are a proof over it. thus no century has passed, on the start of which, a * mujaddad * did not appear.

--------------- ** The list of * mujaddadeen * : **

— 1st century: Umar ben abdul aziz
— 2nd century: Imam shaf’i - Imam ahmed ben hunbal
— 3rd century: Abu sharah - abul hassan ash’ari
— 4th century: Abu abaidulah of naishapur - qazi abubakr of baqlaan
— 5th century: Imam ghazaali
— 6th century: Sayyed abdul qader jailaani
— 7th cebtury: Imam ibne timia - khwaja moinuddeen chisti
— 8th century: hafiz ibne hijr - saleh ben umar
— 9th century: allama jalaludeen of sayyot
— 10th century: Imam mohammad taher of gujrat
— 11th century: Imam rabbani mujaddad aleph sani
— 12th century: shah wali ullah * muhaddath * of delhi
— 13th cebtury: sayyed ahmed barrailwi

( this list can be confirmed by sunni books namely

  • hajjajul karama * published in 1291 years * hijri * (page 135 to 139)
  • majmooatul fitawa * of allama abdul hayee ( volume 4 page 67 )

---------------- ** * Mujaddad of fourteenth century * **

The fourteenth century has passed long ago. There is only one person who claimed to be the * mujaddad * of the fouteenth century * hijri * and therefore there is no other choice but to believe in him. If one denies the only claimer of the fourteenth century, one denies prophet mohammad, and the clear and unconditional prophecy he had made.

Mirza ghulam ahmed of qadian, peace be upon him, claimed:

** when the thirteenth century ended, and the fourteenth century was about to be revealed, allah ta’ala informed me through an * ilhaam * that you are the * mujaddad * of this century.**

** Alas! this nation does not think, that if this trade is not from god, then why has it been induced just on the start of the century, and no one could tell me that you are a liar, and this other person is the truthful man. **

** Alas, such is the state of this people. These people did not honour the promise of allah and his prophet, and 17 years have passed to this century, yet their * mujaddad * is still hidden in some cave. **

-------------- ** No chance of denial: **

It must be noted that there is no chance of denial of the only claimer of the fourteenth century, because if he is denied, then one such other person should be produced, who is the real * mujaddad * of the fourteenth century, other than Mirza ghulam ahmed. This is practically impossible because no other person on the face of the earth claimed to be the * mujaddad * for the fourteenth century.

So one has absolutely no way of running away from the truth.

--- ** i qadeer wrote: **

*
Obviously the Ahmadis are scrambling to get more evidence or rather more miracles to prove their point. So far the only sign they have mentioned is of solar and lunar eclipse. Even this, as people will notice, is of dubious nature. They have misquoted the ayaats of the Quran and selectively chosen to misinterpret certain verses. I don't have to prove that they are mere fabricators and twisters of the worst kind. If they still have an ounce of sharam, they will stop quoting their Mirza whose personality has been exposed as a liar and a defamer of religious personalities. *

--- ** reply: **

I need not state who is scrambling to get what now. The result of the other discussion is obvious too. I just hope you will be more careful on making such remarks again.

Jewels,

Either you accept hadith or you don't. For every hadith a Qadiani quotes there are several which contradict it or supercede it. So context is important.

Sometimes you say only Qur'an is important and only this should be used for reference and hadith is uncertain. Then when you see a hadith that might be used to make a point in your favour you start quoting Hadith as in this thread. Make your minds up. If you accept this hadith then you also have to accept the finality of prohethood hadiths, amongst others which completely negate your Mirza's claims.

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited June 06, 1999).]

Dear extreme,

You have been nourishing the wrong notion that ahmedis reject * ahadith * . We however emphasize on the fact that Koran must be held supreme over hadith. We believe that * Hadith * is a undeniably a very important part of religion. You have got the idea of ahmedis completely rejecting hadith from the selected quotes from mirza sahab's writing, which the molvis have put forth to deceive godfearing religiously inclines people like you.

Mirza ghulam ahmed, while talking to such a scolar who rejects all * ahadith *, in his book, * testimony of the holy koran * says:

"So the objector, having heard from somewhere that most reports of Hadith are of the isolated type [ahad], has promptly concluded that all the accepted Islamic sources, except the Holy Quran, are unfounded and dubious, not being conclusive or certain at all. This belief, however, is a very great misconception, the first effect of which is to destroy one’s faith. For, if it is true that all the records of the Muslims, other than the Holy Quran, are just a collection of falsehood, lies, fabrication, conjectures and uncertainties, then very little would remain of Islam."

If now, from the above passage, a molvi quotes,
".... it is true that all the records of the Muslims, other than the Holy Quran, are just a collection of falsehood, lies, fabrication, conjectures and uncertainties..."

then it will completely change the meaning of the original text.

Therefore as we have already explained quite a few times, we believe in hadith and consider it an essential part of religion Our only emphasis is to hold the koran supreme over hadith, and in case of clash between koran and hadith, we should listen to koran rather than hadith. We explain the meaning of all such ahadith whoch you present, and have not rejected any, atleast in this forum.

**
whether or not WE believe in hadith does not matter in this question.
you claim that YOU believe in hadith, yet it is seen that you are negating this hadith by not believing in the 14th mujaddad!
The original case is clear now. Everyone can see that the ahmedis are accepting the hadith and mr extreme is ignoring it.
If you believe in it, produce your fourteenth mujaddad! you have nowhere to run now! you are COMPLETELY pointless now!
**

You try to dodge me by ignoring the original point about ** mujaddadeen ** and talking about whether or not we believe in hadith! i have been a player of kabaddi when i was very young! so when you can not dodge me! if you want to move on, mard ki tarah mujhay gira kar aagay niklain! ither uther say bhaagnay ki koshish na kerain!

you have been claiming that you believe in hadith! if you do, bring the fourteenth mujaddad! absolutely nowhere to run!!

[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited June 06, 1999).]

this is the easiest discussion possible! no need of discussing translations and arabic words! all you people have to know is, name the fourteenth mujaddad and you win this discussion! otherwise we will believe in the only claimer! no other choice!!

Dear Jewels
I had resolved not to participate in this useless debate, whether Mirza was a prophet or not. However, you seem quite bent upon dragging me forcibly in this argument. Being rational, I have concluded that it will always be my word against yours, my interpretation of Quran against yours, therefore to you unto your religion and to me unto mine.

--- ** saying: **
to you unto your religion and to me unto mine.

--- ** reply: **

subhaanallah!!!!! look who's talking, and which verse he's pointing out!!!!

my brother, why did you not mention this verse when you were making false allegations against the ahmedis? i had to go for examz, and behind me, you people posted such false and such derogatory stuff which is not suitable for a person who believes in the above mentioned verse!!

when you were there on the allegating side, you had forgot this verse??
now that you are pointless, aap ko yeh verse yaad aa gayee hai??

theres no way to run away my friend! ** YOU ASKED FOR THE SIGNS OF MESSIAH! ** now you get them!! you had developed the wrong notion that we do not have a strong case. this was because i was not here to reply to extreme!!

--- ** saying **
However, you seem quite bent upon dragging me forcibly in this argument.

--- ** reply **

look who's talking! my dear fellow seeker of truth, it was a provocative message by you that asked me to present before you, signs of the messiah! i have just talked about two signs, out of a series of tens and hundreds!!

Upon seeing the first sign, you wrote another provocative message as i have posted it in my second post of this thread!

Where was this verse when you were provocating me? why did you only remember it when you are pintless enough?? this is a forum intended for religious discussion, and discussions arise thru difference of opinion. the points of only those writers are taken true, who prove them thru reasoning.

if you think it is pointless to discuss religion, why are you here in this forum? to eatch a movie?? and why did yu actually made sick comments on ahmedis? us waqt koran majeed ki aayat kahaan thee???

--- ** saying: **
Being rational, I have concluded that it will always be my word against yours, my interpretation of Quran against yours

--- ** reply: **

mere pyare bhai, meree interpretation abhi aap nay sunni kahaan hai! aap to nafrat main itnay sakht hain, kay koi na koi tareeqa jhutlaanay ka sochtay rehtay hain!

**
uptil now, all explanations, all translations, and all refernces used in the discussions are authentic SUNNI resources! **

aap meri baat nahee mantay to na maanay, magar please apnay hi scholars ki baat to maan lain!

Dear Jewels,
It seems like you did not get my point. The reason I don't want to argue with you is that there is no reason in your arguments.
Whenever I try to point any thing from sunni sources you negate it by providing an Ahmadi explanation which I am sorry to say is simply not acceptable to me. Whether you like it or not, whether you consider it my avoiding this subject or not, I am through with you.

I have already apologize to all Ahmadis for the harsh words I may have said out of emotions but as far as this debate is concerned I consider it a dead horse. If you concede it to be defeat on my behalf, so be it. I believe in what my heart tells me and there is no room in my heart for Ahmadism. Yes this is a religious forum and what I am doing here is none of your business any way. I think that by making a concilliatory gesture towards you I have signalled that I am not interested in maintaining this debate and if you have the least amount of civility, you would refrain from making derogatory statements directed towards me.

dear iqadeer,
now you seem xtremely tired(like mr.xtreme!) and want to leave. well, besmirching one's repute is not always as easy as eating a lollypop! jewels of significance has given a very logical debate
covering both quran and hadith. it is unfair
to say that he always gives an ahmadi opinion. if something is rational and "valid"
why don't you accept it open-heartedly. if mirza sahib was a nabi, you will definately be asked about him on the judgementday.
see ya soon buddy(with an optimistic approach!)

Tempest101 : I have no doubt that you are another Qadiani logging in as another nick.

I have already suggested this to jewels, Stand on your feet, it builds character. You'll are a strange breed.......

Later on
Zman

Dear zman,

well, i do not blame you of such comments! when someone fails to defend his point thru logic and authenticity, he is ofcourse to revert to such comments :)

we dont mind that :)

Say: "produce your logic, is you speak truely"
( chapter 27, the ant, verse 65 )

what point ?
I was referring to how iqadeer cornered you. Its so typical of you fellows to not respond to posts when you'll have been unmasked. I have known some real decent people from your religion and [snipped].

Later on
Zman

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 10, 1999).]

it is evident from the above thread as to who runs away and who's cornered whom :)

public can see :)