Dear i qadeer.
at one side you argue, relating to the koran, that quoting out of context is foul. on the other hand, you quote mirza sahab, peace be upon him, out of context and are proud of it. what kind of hypocrite religion do you follow? no wonder you molvis are hypocrites!
You have agreed in a discussion that your ultimate motive in following the religion is to fulfill your sexual desires, while in my case, my motive is to get love and nearness of allah.
and this is the basic differece between me and you.
--- ** saying: **
* Who said that the word means eclipse anyway? *
--- ** reply: **
If this does not mean eclipse, then why did you not realize that before? it is just that you are finding ways to escape, as is said in the koranic verses i gave, ** "that is the day when men will cry 'wither to escape?' ** but Allah has made it clear, ** No indeed, not a refuge. Upon that day, the recourse shall be to thy lord. **
Well you did give the translation of yousaf ali anf shakir, but why did you forget to give the translation of ** pickthall **? he is also one of your beloved scholars, and his translation is also available online together with shakir and yousaf ali.
the reason is that pickthall translated it as "eclipse". And you wanted to hide it. Please tell me, who are you deceiving by doing this? you are not deceiving me, my brother, you are just deceiving yourself. because you deny me in the forum, by any fair or unfair means, but you will be questioned about it by allah. if you dont want to believe in me, then dont, but atleast make your approach positive.
if i am wrong, then it is your duty to tell me the right thing, and certainly allah will ask you if you did that or not. But now that i have caught you hiding a translation just because it goes against you, what impression have you made on my mind? do you think now i will be inclined to believe in you?
--- ** saying: **
* And the moon is buried in darkness.(75:8) translation by YousufAli
And the moon becomes dark,(75:8) By Shakir. *
--- ** reply: **
----> ** And the moon is eclipsed **
(al-Qiyamah 75:8) By Pichthall.
----> ** And the moon is eclipsed **
(al-Qiyamah 75:8) by molvi sher ali
----> ** And the moon is eclipsed **
(al-Qiyamah 75:8) by rashad khalifa
Undeniably the most authentic and unbiased translation by arthur j. arberry in 1955:
---->** And the moon is eclipsed ** ( the resurrection, 75:8 )
-------** supports for my translation **
1) ** prophet mohammad: **
- "For our mahdi there are two signs which have never occured since the creations of the heavens and the earth. A double eclipse in which the moon will be eclipsed on the first of the possible months of Ramadhan, and the the sun will be eclipsed in the middle of the possible months of Ramadhan." *
(Dar ul Qutni, Sunan, volume 1 page 188.)
2) ** bible: **
As told earlier, three of the most authentic gospels support my point:
1) (Matthew 24:29-30)
2) ( Mark 13:24 )
3) ( Luke 21:25 )
3) ** The mujaddad of 11th century :**
--> Hazrat mujaddad aleph sani, ( may allah's mercy be with him )
maktoobat-e-mujadda aleph sani volume 2, page 368.
note that a mujaddad is chosen by allah. as par his promise, and therefore his opinion is to be followed by all the muslims, including yousaf ali and shakir.
4) ** Authentic muslim books: **
--> iqtaraabul sa'at, page 106, 107
--> ahwaalul aakhirat, page 23
--> akmaaluddeen, page 368
--> bahaarul anwaar, volume 13 page 58
--> qaseeda-e-zahoor e mehdi page 41
--> hikmat-e-baalegha, page 409
after such strong evidences, it belong to a god fearing man to believe.
--- ** saying: **
- These ayaats clearly refer to the events of Qiyamah as the surah is aptly known. *
--- ** ayaats **
Pickthall:
* On that day man is told the tale of that which he hath sent before and left behind. Oh, but man is a telling witness against himself, Although he tender his excuses.*
Yousaf ali:
* That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back. Nay, man will be evidence against himself. Even though he were to put up his excuses. *
Rashad Khalifa:
* The human being will be informed, on that day, of everything he did to advance himself, and everything he did to regress himself.*
Iqadeer:
* Man shall say on that day: Whither to fly to? By no means! there shall be no place of refuge! With your Lord alone shall on that day be the place of rest. Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off Nay! man is evidence against himself, Though he puts forth his excuses.*
--- ** reply: **
Now that the fact is established that "Khasoof" only means lunar eclipse, it will be easier for one to understand that these verses relate to the signs of the qayamat, and not the qayamat itself, because in order for an eclipse to take place, the solar system must be functioning.
The verses explained above Say that human beings will be told of the deeds they have done, which they shouldnt have been doing, and the deeds they should have done but didnt do. They will be told of the righteous deeds, which they will ** send forth ** to be rewarded for in the life after death, and those deeds, which they will ** leave behind, ** or ** put back ** in this world, and will have no benefit of those deeds in the life after death.
We frequently here in our traditional language, that those who love money are advised, "wealth will be left behind, only good deeds will be sent forth."
This meaning, as you will agree, is in exact accordance with the proverb of the language.
The verses that tell us that we will be told of the good and the bad things support the coming of the prophet in the last times, as a sign of the qayamat.
Be it jesus or mirza ghulam ahmed, someone HAS TO come, as is promissed by the koran, and these sings MUST BE REVEALED, as is promissed by the koran.
The last part of the verses you gave talk about those people who will be trying to find excuses, yet in the heart of their hearts, they know what they are.
I humbly advise you not to be one of them. please realize the truth, and ask allah to reveal his signs to show the truth.
--- ** Saying: **
- I knew there would be some discrepancy in your translation so I looked it up and guess what?. It was misworded again. Therefore I am quoting the real translation that changes the meaning of the verse altogether. *
--- ** verse: **
- ** I qadeer: **
Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the apostles before thee: ** that ** thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty. *
** The original arabic verse with word to word translation: **
maa yuqaalu * ---- naught is said
laka * ---- to you
illa * ---- other than, except, save
kad keela lirrusul * ---- was said to all the prophets
min kablik * ---- before you
** this follows a * toy * sign, this explaining that this part of the verse has ended, and a new subject is started. after * toy * sign there is no THAT which i qadeer have written. I qadeer has tried to prove that the second part of the verse is the one which is said to the prophets, but this is wrong. because the allah has used the * toy * sign, which tells us that the previous subject has ended, and a new subject is being addressed.**
- inna * ---- no doubt,
- rabbaka * ---- your god,
- la zoo * ---- is the owner of
- maghfiratin * ---- forgiveness
- wa la zoo * ---- and is the owner of
- eqaabin aleem * --- painful punishment
the end!
---- ** supportive translations: **
while i qadeer have used yousaf ali's translation, the only one supporting him, and left out others, i felt a need to add this:
--> ** Pickthall **
- Naught is said unto thee (Muhammad) save what was said unto the messengers before thee. Lo! thy Lord is owner of forgiveness, and owner (also) of dire punishment.*
( the full stop supports two different subjects being adresses, contrary to word "THAT" used by i qadeer.)
--> ** Shakir: **
- Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles before you;
surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution. *
( here too a semi colon is used, differentiating between two different subjects. )
---> ** Sher ali : **
Sher ali has clearly stated that the first part is about the sayings of unbelievers and the second part about god's reward to them.hence:
- Nothing is said in opposition to thee but what was said to the Messengers before thee. Thy Lord is indeed, the Master of great forgiveness; and also the master of painful chastisement.*
---> ** Rashad khalifa **
* What is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers. Your Lord possesses forgiveness, and He also possesses painful retribution.*
Here too, a full stop seperates the two subjects from each other and make my point clear.
---> ** arthur j. arberry **
- Naught is said to thee but what was said to the messengers before thee. Surely thy lord is the lord of forgiveness, and of painful retribution. *
This also shows a ful stop rather than ** THAT ** or speech marks, thus keeping from each other, two different subjects.
--- ** reply **
have the ahmedis bribed all these translators? have the ahmedis bribed allah to put the arabic * toy * sign ? ( i take rufuge of allah from saying that )
Now that i have the upper hand until you reply, i can easily accuse ** YOU ** of twisting the holy koran. but i will not. Please understand that religion is not an "either right or wrong" matter. People have a lot of different opinions, and we have to chose the one which seems comparatively more acceptable. yet we should not say all others are "twisting" the meaning of the koran.
i have shown you that just as your point has been supported by a renowned scholar ** yousaf ali ** this point is exactly opposed by another renouned scholar ** sher ali **. only one of them can be possibly right, because they have opposing views. yet it will be absolutely wrong and shameful to say that either of them is twisting the meaning of the holy koran.
Nobody twists the meaning of the holy koran. Different people have different veiws, and a good muslim should learn to respect ALL the views, whether he accepts them or not.
So please, on my humble request, rethink about your accusation of me "twisting" the meaning of the holu koran, as i have shown to you that many a sunni muslim scholar hold the same opinion as me, and a different opinion to you and yousaf ali. yet all of us are trying to search, and must respect other persons opinion.
another thing which has been cleared out is the fact that ** who blindly follows the mullah *. uptill now you have been accusing me of doing that, yet it has been revealed that you are the one doing that. You looked at yousaf ali's translation, and plainly refused mine, * without checking the original verse ** from the koran.
If you has seen the context, you would have known that in the previous verses, allah talks about those who deny the koran, and in this verse, he tells that these are the same lame excuses of denial, which were presented to the prophets before you.
but it is very depressing for me, to see that you have increased in your hate and prejudice to such an extent that you are just not willing to accept that you could be wrong too.
such allegations have been made by you, as following the mullah, and twisting the meaning of koran, yet hide ot or accept it, in the heart of your hearts, you know that i always study the koran myself, and bring up strong evidences from the koran, while you are only there to deny the verses and find excuses to disbelieve in them. i bring out what i study, and you blindly deny it.
In all this discussion, count the number of verses i have brought forth to prove my point, and count the number of translations i have gone thru, see the detailed explanations i have made, and look at the proper translations for words that i have proposed thru reasoning rather than just because a scholar said so.
and then look at the same things done by you. then think again, is it me who is following the mullah, or is it you?
anyone going thru this discussion can asily figure out, keeping into consideration, another fact, that uptil now, onlu YOUR scholars have been quoted, and not mine!
If you dont want to believe my scholars, than dont. but atleast believe in yours!
[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited June 03, 1999).]