Signs of Mahdi

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

rosedreams,

Mahdi is same for everyone. He is not just for Ahmadis or any particular group. Surely enough, people who will accept him will call themselves someone other than those who reject him and ofcourse those who will accept him will remain Muslim. But Mahdi is one for all Muslims and everyone else.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

For more information on the occurrence of solar and lunar eclipse, please visit Eclipses Online: Solar and Lunar Eclipses past, present & future and search for years 1894 and 1895. Year 1894, 2 eclipse, solar and lunar, in the month of ramadan, seen in the eastern part of the globe. Next year, 1895, again 2 eclipse, solar and lunar, in the month of ramadan.. this time it was seen in the western part of the globe! See it yourself. Go on to that site and search it yourself.

Do you still insist it was a zaeef hadith ?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

@Mr.Popat

I’m not here to discuss the difference of you and me here. If I were to quote your Ullamas.. they believe there are verses in Quran which cancel out some verses of Quran. Now, please dont let me do that. Baat nikli to door talak jaae gi.

You are inadvertently showing the differences between 90% of Muslims and ‘you lot’.

What a threat!!! :sadaf:A mouse roared and thinks it is a lion. :hbk: Go ahead spew out all that you want. Please don’t let my pleas stop you.

@Mr.Popat

This is exactly what I expected from you. I dont care how many muhadith call it a zaeef hadith or how many muhadith call it whatever. I’m not their follower. You should not be either. Fact of the matter is that this hadith is written in the book.. and it HAS happened!. Now, you call it zaeef, fabricated.. or any thing else. That’s irrelevant now. When a certain thing has occurred, then you have NO option and no choice but to believe it as it is!

Of course you shouldn’t expect anything else from me but what I stated.

We all know whom you follow

It is NOT me who saying that the hadith in question is fabricated – You don’t read, do you?

It is the most eminent scholars of unchallenged repute throughout the centuries who have deemed it a fabricated hadith.

Have you ever heard the saying that ‘one swallow doesn’t make a summer’?

There are literally hundreds of ahadith with regards to Hz. Mahdi (ra) and Messiah (Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum). There is no mention of Mr. Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chiragh Bibi.

@Mr.Popat

What I found rather amazing from your side is that you jumped in and started calling it fabricated :). OK. Call it whatever. It’s mentioned as a hadith. When this actually happened, then all the muhadith who said its fabricated stand wrong in calling it fabricated. Period. .

What Muslims find amazing is that your hero had the gall to throw the noble words of the blessed Prophet (saw) in to waste paper bin and yet has to rely of fabricated hadith of justify his false claims. Sheer pathetic.

Surprise! Surprise! The hadith of ‘Lunar & Solar Eclipses in Ramadan’ is very weak and has no legs to stand.

*Qur’an does not mention eclipses. However, numerous Ahadith mentioned eclipses, e.g.,

Narrated Al Mughira bin Shuba (Sahih Al-Bokhari)

The sun eclipsed in the lifetime of Allah’s Apostle on the day when (his son) Ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of Ibrahim. Allah’s Apostle said, “The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of someone. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah.”

Narrated Abu Masud, also Ibn Umar (Sahih Al-Bokhari)

The Prophet said, “The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death of someone from the people but they are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. When you see them stand up and pray.”

Some people, basically Qadianis (Ahmadiyya), mention another Hadith: “Amr bin Shimr narrates from Jabir who told him that Muhammad bin Ali said that for our Mehdi, two signs are given which never occurred in the past from the creation of the heavens and the earth. One is that a lunar eclipse will occur on the first night of Ramadan and the second sign is that a solar eclipse will occur in the middle of Ramadan and these signs had never happened from the creation of the heavens and the earth (Dar Qutni).”

ATTENTION:

1. The 3rd narration mentioned above is definitely not the saying of the Messenger (SAW), as the narrator clearly assigns it as the saying of Imam Muhammad Baqir bin Ali which was written in the book of Dar Qutni. Attributing this to Imam Muhammad Baqir is also wrong as the first narrator mentioned was Muhammad bin Ali not Imam Baqir. There were several narrators by the name Muhammad bin Ali and there is no proof or reason to believe that this person is Imam Baqir. Moreover, Imam Baqir was born 47 years after the death of the Messenger (SAW), and for a narration to be a Hadith, it must have chains of narration going back to the Messenger (SAW). This narration clearly does not go back to Messenger (SAW).

2. “According to its authenticity, this saying attributed to Imam Baqir is extremely weak, outcast, and rejected. Looking at the chain of narration, the second narrator is Amr bin Shimr who has been labeled (in Meezanul-E’tidaal P262) as the big liar, a narrator of weak and fabricated Ahadith, a non-believer of Hadith, a person who uses abusive words for the companions of the Messenger (SAW), the Sahabah (Razi-Allahu unhum ajmaeen), and according to Ilm-ul-Hadith, his narration is not written as Hadith.”

These are the words of Allamah Shamsuddin Dhahbi (Rahmatullah Alayhe) who was an expert of the Funn-e-Rijaal, art of Men Narrators. Thus, it is clear that this narrator is absolutely not reliable nor trustworthy. So, to present this narration as a Hadith of Rasool (SAW) is not only a great false accusation and a lie but according to Hadith-e-Sahih (agreed upon Hadith, which says, “Whoever lies upon me deliberately and knowingly should know that he has made his abode in Jahannam”), it is making an abode in the Hell fire.

The third narrator is Jabir. There were several narrators by this name, and which Jabir is mentioned here is unknown; someone by this name was known to be a person of unknown parentage or lineage. One among the persons with the name Jabir was Jabir Ja’fi, who was described by Imam Abu-Hanifah (Rahmatullah Alayhe) as “among the liars that I met, no one was bigger liar than Jabir Ja’fi.” Remember, that Imam Abu-Hanifah, Imam Baqir, Jabir Ja’fai, and Amr bin Shimr were all born after 47 to 80 years after the death of the Messenger (SAW).

None of the narrators mentioned that they heard this from Sahabah or Rasool (SAW), and the authenticity of these narrators is extremely questionable. Now you can tell, how can such narration be labelled as Hadith, and how can it be worth any discussion and argument. *

Sun & Moon Eclipses

Shame on faith that relies of fabricated ahadith to justify its truthfulness

[psyah]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Do people not think that the reason why the hadith talking about Isa (AS) and Mahdi (RA) being interpretable as one in the same being is deemed weak is because it conflicts with many other Hadith. So by accepting this one 'that is in the book', many more have to be rejected 'that are in the book'.. This creates a bigger problem.

This may still be a correct Hadith as stated earlier, but it's meaning may be obscure ... Such that it means 'no one is perfect except The Masih' ... Which requires ta'wil to be understood, whilst being in sync with the other Hadith on the same subject.

Either way obscure or weak ... It does not qualify as being enough to alter the 'aqeedah of Islam ... That is of finality of prophethood ... It presents greater problems to accept it with the meaning that Isa (AS) is another person and not the same Isa (AS) ...

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Ibn Sadique :

You have not answered my question. Has the lunar and solar eclipse occurred at a time of someone who claimed to be the Imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah(AS) ?

Again, I tell you, we muslims are NOT followers of muhaditheen. They have divided ahadith into different categories to the best of their knowledge. They were NOT divinely guided to know which is for sure a fabricated one or not. Rest assured, this hadith has been there for centuries and centuries, in fact, I can provide you quotes from your ullamas when they asked for lunar and solar eclipse as a sign.

You have no answer to this. I know this for a fact. You are not the only one, so its ok. When a certain hadith comes to its fulfillment, only people whose hearts are sealed will do whatever it takes to reject the one sent by God. I have no enmity against you, but learn to admit this event has in fact happened and was a great heavenly sign. Rate that hadith whatever. It is not going to change the fact.

1) this hadith has been there in tradition since a very very long time.
2) scholars have written in their books as a sign of the coming of Mahdi
3) people like you rate it as fabricated >> why ? because this event has actually occurred.
4) >> a true Muslim will not shut his eyes when he knows it has happened. The hadith comes to its fulfillment gracefully.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Do people not think that the reason why the hadith talking about Isa (AS) and Mahdi (RA) being interpretable as one in the same being is deemed weak is because it conflicts with many other Hadith. So by accepting this one 'that is in the book', many more have to be rejected 'that are in the book'.. This creates a bigger problem.

This may still be a correct Hadith as stated earlier, but it's meaning may be obscure ... Such that it means 'no one is perfect except The Masih' ... Which requires ta'wil to be understood, whilst being in sync with the other Hadith on the same subject.

Either way obscure or weak ... It does not qualify as being enough to alter the 'aqeedah of Islam ... That is of finality of prophethood ... It presents greater problems to accept it with the meaning that Isa (AS) is another person and not the same Isa (AS) ...

Glad to see you have acknowledged the hadith. Your taawil does not make sense. You are now translating Mahdi to suit your need. Are you saying the Mahdi will not be perfect ? That is the problem. Since the hadith is valid, you are now turning to a different side and starting to do taawil of it.

'There is no Mahdi but Masih' . Masih will be Mahdi and Mahdi will be Masih. There's no rocket science in there.

You keep emphasizing about 'aqeedah of Islam'. No sir! This is the aqeedah which your scholars have made up. Do not associate it with Islam please. If you consider Masih and Mahdi to be 2 different people and both to be khalifah, then do you know there is a hadith in which we are told that if there are 2 Khalifas, you should kill the 2nd khalifah. Do you know about that ? Does that mean you will kill Isa (as) nauzubillah ?

There are some ahadith which you are mentioning which contradicts the hadith i mentioned.. some of them have contradiction in within those hadith. If you quote them, I will show you where the contradictions are.

There is no one individual who will be called Mahdi. You forgot to mention how in your belief, Mahdi will not claim to be Mahdi, but rather people will force him to become Mahdi.. please do mention how does that even make sense?

Beside that, Masih, even in your belief will come as a Hakm adal, meaning, He a.s has the full authority to tell Muslims which hadith stands corrected, which does not. In your belief, this is his mission as well.. to clear all the misinterpretations and where Muslims differ in. So, this was predicted already. There has got to be people who would reject Massiah because all the stories which were told to you were not fulfilled in the same way you have always been told..

[bao_bihari]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Thread is not going in right direction, thank to minorites. :)

Popat , do you think mehdi has arrived or not? If yes what were the qualities of that mehdi? How can you place him over and above other religious persons, what are his mujadidiyat works?

I am asking this because this will inshallah settle this discussion . If he has not arrived, on what bases do you think you can interpret these ahadith differently from muhaditheen? Remember some one claiming mehidyat had named mujadideen of last 14 centuaries and name of many muhaditheen is in it. :) Better watch out

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Thread is not going in right direction, thank to minorites. :)

Popat , do you think mehdi has arrived or not? If yes what were the qualities of that mehdi? How can you place him over and above other religious persons, what are his mujadidiyat works?

I am asking this because this will inshallah settle this discussion . If he has not arrived, on what bases do you think you can interpret these ahadith differently from muhaditheen? Remember some one claiming mehidyat had named mujadideen of last 14 centuaries and name of many muhaditheen is in it. :) Better watch out

Salam,
I'm trying to keep this thread as much in topic as possible. Question by the OP was about the signs of Mahdi. I quoted a hadith of solar and lunar eclipse as a sign of Imam Mahdi. This is the discussion that's happening right now.

As far as my take on Mahdi goes, most if not all knows I am an Ahmadi. My take is that he a.s has come and prophecies are fulfilled in the personality of Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as). Mahdi in its literal meaning means the guided one. All prophets are Mahdi. It's naive to think the Messiah will not be a Mahdi. He (as) has to be a Mahdi in order to fulfill his duties. Messiah has to be a Mahdi first in order to be Messiah.

May I ask from you, what is the reason of Imam Mahdi (as) ? If Jesus a.s can do everything, why do you need Imam Mahdi ?

[bao_bihari]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

^ Popat, kindly elaborate further why you think he was mehdi. What majadidiyat he did that made him over and above others.

Please dont go through literal meanings , other wise hajj mean intent, so i can do hajj in my country, jihad means struglle so i can do jihad by vaccinating my kids. :)

Sorry for giving an off topic example. Carry on answer what i need to know more about you, i will inshallah then answer yours. See your concepts are odd man out here so we need to know about yours first.

Mods-Please dont close the disscusion, edit if you see any deviations from rules.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

@Mr.Popat

.

…

Thankyou for a thought provoking reply. I agree with you. Silence is best .

i am bohat hi farigh at office today

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

There's nothing wrong with having different belief than yours. You can call it odd, and i will cal yours odd. That's really not going to get us anywhere.
Let's try it again. Your examples were good, but it brings complications. Otherwise messenger means someone who delivers message, or Islam means submission. I have quoted a hadith to which psyah had to do taawil on. "There is no Mahdi but Isa a.s ". Since I believe Mahdi and Messiah are one and same person, I can tell you the work he did. But first, we need to agree if he is one or 2 diff people. Before that, there is no need to further talk about it. One sign of Mahdi i have stated earlier, if you agree to that then we can move ahead and then talk about if he is one person or 2 different people.

PS: i mistakenly copy/pasted my own reply again. Sorry about that.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

There's nothing wrong with having different belief than yours. You can call it odd, and i will cal yours odd. That's really not going to get us anywhere.

Let's try it again. Your examples were good, but it brings complications. Otherwise messenger means someone who delivers message, or Islam means submission. I have quoted a hadith to which psyah had to do taawil on. "There is no Mahdi but Isa a.s ". Since I believe Mahdi and Messiah are one and same person, I can tell you the work he did. But first, we need to agree if he is one or 2 diff people. Before that, there is no need to further talk about it. One sign of Mahdi i have stated earlier, if you agree to that then we can move ahead and then talk about if he is one person or 2 different people.

Agreed on first point.

You can carry your discussion on that with brother psyah and Ibn saddique. They are more knowledgable on that. I have a different approach.once i agree that the person making this new claim that majority have not claimed in the past desrves that position and for that i should first know the credentials of that person . See this is where our discussion reaches to point of no return, a dead end. If we are to really find the haq then why not enlighten us with the personality.Why keep us in dark if mehdi is here. Tell us more about him , his mujadidiyat inshallah then it will be much easier to reach the truth.

Sorry if my odd man out example offended you. Maazrat dost. :)

[Ma_Mooli]

Signs of Mahdi

I think we need another thread. This one has been hijacked.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

Agreed on first point.

You can carry your discussion on that with brother psyah and Ibn saddique. They are more knowledgable on that. I have a different approach.once i agree that the person making this new claim that majority have not claimed in the past desrves that position and for that i should first know the credentials of that person . See this is where our discussion reaches to point of no return, a dead end. If we are to really find the haq then why not enlighten us with the personality.Why keep us in dark if mehdi is here. Tell us more about him , his mujadidiyat inshallah then it will be much easier to reach the truth.

Sorry if my odd man out example offended you. Maazrat dost. :)

I'm not offended by anything you or anyone say. It's not the first time and certainly not the last. We're used to it. But thanks for not being harsh though :)
I sincerely believe my faith to be in perfect accordance to Islam. I won't purposely believe on something I believe is wrong.

I will discuss everything you wish. But it will bring no result whatsoever. If you were a CEO of a company, you would only ask your HR dept to search for the right candidate if there is vacancy, or else you wont bother no matter what qualification anyone has. Same goes for this one. We must first agree on one thing first. See if there is vacancy available.. and then we can see if the person we believe is the right candidate according to Quran and ahadith and if he even make sense... before this, there will be no point.

Mahdi this or Mahdi that. Rest assured, he will be rejected. Then another question is.. which sect of Islam will he be coming from? He will be rejected by His own people, let alone other sects of Islam. Those who will follow him will have a different jamaat. That is how it has always been. Muhammad PBUH is still being rejected.. and we think Mahdi and Isa (as) will unite Muslims ? No. It will make a new jamaat and people will enter in it from different groups, tribes and sects, eventually making everyone to come under the flag of Muhammad PBUH.

Anyway, long reply again. Sorry about that. Maazrat accepted brother. Do keep me in prayers. :)

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

I think we need another thread. This one has been hijacked.

no Ma Mooli, sign of Mahdi >> solar and lunar eclipse in the month of ramadan as stated in the hadith. It's still in topic.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

I'm not offended by anything you or anyone say. It's not the first time and certainly not the last. We're used to it. But thanks for not being harsh though :) I sincerely believe my faith to be in perfect accordance to Islam. I won't purposely believe on something I believe is wrong.

I will discuss everything you wish. But it will bring no result whatsoever. If you were a CEO of a company, you would only ask your HR dept to search for the right candidate if there is vacancy, or else you wont bother no matter what qualification anyone has. Same goes for this one. We must first agree on one thing first. See if there is vacancy available.. and then we can see if the person we believe is the right candidate according to Quran and ahadith and if he even make sense... before this, there will be no point.

Mahdi this or Mahdi that. Rest assured, he will be rejected. Then another question is.. which sect of Islam will he be coming from? He will be rejected by His own people, let alone other sects of Islam. Those who will follow him will have a different jamaat. That is how it has always been. Muhammad PBUH is still being rejected.. and we think Mahdi and Isa (as) will unite Muslims ? No. It will make a new jamaat and people will enter in it from different groups, tribes and sects, eventually making everyone to come under the flag of Muhammad PBUH.

Anyway, long reply again. Sorry about that. Maazrat accepted brother. Do keep me in prayers. :)

But if some one claims that he is already an employee, what will you do. See you are not hiring but the point is you need to justify if the person is employee or not. One approach is if the position wa svacant, what qualities were needed for that position and then decided whether he is right person or not. Other view is decide if he is right person or not.

Ok carry on with your discussion, do let me know if you feel like discussing this thing.

May ALLAH join us all in Jannat with afiyat and maqbooliyat.

[Ma_Mooli]

[quote="Ma_Mooli, post:2, topic:275808"]

I think we need another thread. This one has been hijacked.

no Ma Mooli, sign of Mahdi >> solar and lunar eclipse in the month of ramadan as stated in the hadith. It's still in topic.
[/QUOTE]

There are alot more signs than solar and lunar eclipse. But you are discussing wether the mahdi and massih are the same or not. Thats a different topic entirely.

[hareem01]

Re: Signs of Mahdi

@Ma_Mooli

I think we need another thread. This one has been hijacked.

And what makes you think another thread won’t get hijacked.

Anyway, there’s no problem in hearing different views.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Signs of Mahdi