Siachen Glacier (thread split)

You’d be scared of your neighbour too, if they were a state that spends many billions on building up armed forced that are far larger than needed for merely defending itself and that had initiated two invasions across your international border in the space of 6 years and 3 months.

A state that agreed to a line of control in Kashmir at Simla in 1972 to decrease tensions, and violated that same agreement through occupying the Siachin glazier in 1984 when it realised the glazier was undefended.

When your neighbour is a thug like this, you had damn well better be scared.

Yeah sure - so far Pakistan has agreed to all the treaties and has not violated a single clause, well I have news for you - Read this report from Janes :-

“In 1983 Pakistan claimed the area for itself and eight months later began moving troops to set up pickets and establish control. India, in response, airlifted troops to Siachen, occupying all ingress points to the glacier overlooking Pakistani territory. Ever since then the fight has settled down to daily exchanges of artillery fire and skirmishes between patrols.”
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/asia_pacific/news/jir/jir990607_1_n.shtml

This presents a different view.

*In the 1970s and early 1980s Pakistan permitted several mountaineering expeditions to climb high peaks on this glacier. This was to reinforce their claim on the area as these expeditions arrived on the glacier with a permit obtained from the Government of Pakistan. Operation Meghdoot [named after the divine cloud messenger in a Sanskrit play] was launched on 13 April 1984 when the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force went into the Glacier. Pakistan quickly responded with troop deployments. *

I dont think it presents a different view, It says the same thing, you just need to read it carefully, Let me highlight it for you :-

*In the 1970s and early 1980s Pakistan permitted several mountaineering expeditions to climb high peaks on this glacier. This was to reinforce their claim on the area as these expeditions arrived on the glacier with a permit obtained from the Government of Pakistan. Operation Meghdoot [named after the divine cloud messenger in a Sanskrit play] was launched on 13 April 1984 when the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force went into the Glacier. Pakistan quickly responded with troop deployments. *

Yes, sending expeditions of foreign mountain climbers really represents reinforcing your troops deployed there in 1983 :hehe:

The article says nothing that would suggest that Pakistani troops were present at Siachen prior to India seizing it by force of arms - a clear violation of the Simla Agreement’s clauses that “neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation” and that differences must be resolved through “bilateral negotiations”.

In fact, the article makes it clear that Pakistani troop movements were in response to India’s seizure.

The fact that India’s response to a couple of foreign civilians on top of Siachen with slips of paper was to mount a full-scale military occupation speaks volumes about the hostile intent of an India looking for any excuse to grab more and more land.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

You'd be scared of your neighbour too, if they were a state that spends many billions on building up armed forced that are far larger than needed for merely defending itself and that had initiated two invasions across your international border in the space of 6 years and 3 months.

[/QUOTE]

i infer that u r referring to 1965 and 1971 here. FYI, pakistan started the 1965 war. the war game article that zakk has posted mentions it so.
1947 was itself started by pakistan.
1999 also started by pakistan.
if we consider that india started 1971, even then the score is 3-1. pakistan starting 3 wars. so who is the war-monger?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Yes, sending expeditions of foreign mountain climbers really represents reinforcing your troops deployed there in 1983
[/QUOTE]

Troops or no Troops - It says that Pakistan claimed the Territory and they tried it by allowing permits to foreign nationals. Was Siachin in Pakistan Territory ?? Did they take Indian govt in confidence before allowing Visas/permits ??

[QUOTE]
The article says nothing that would suggest that Pakistani troops were present at Siachen prior to India seizing it by force of arms - a clear violation of the Simla Agreement's clauses that "neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation" and that differences must be resolved through "bilateral negotiations".
[/QUOTE]

I have already posted an article from JANES suggesting that "In 1983 Pakistan claimed the area for itself and eight months later began moving troops to set up pickets and establish control", which is a Clear violation of Shimla Agreement mentioned by you. Your article also supports that Pakistan indeed Re-inforced its claim to Siachen in 1983.

Here is an Interview of Indian Army Officer taken by Defence Journal, Please read it yourself and find out what actually happened :-

DJ: You are the man said to have started the Siachen episode. Can you clarify this?

A: In 1978, when I was DMO we got information about a foreign expedition from the Pakistan side visiting the Siachen Glacier. The Line of Control, terminates at NJ 9842. The Glaciers are not demarcated. We sent a patrol next year and it was confirmed that Japanese expeditions had visited the Siachen Glacier. So routine patrolling started. Similarly routine protest notes used to be exchanged. **The problem precipitated on 21st August 1983 when a protest note from Northern Sector Commander of Pakistan was handed over to his counterpart in Kargil stating that Line of Control joins with the Karakoram Pass, also that all the area West of this extended line belongs to Pakistan. When Army Headquarters saw this and also got information that Pakistan troops had occupied Bila Fond Pass, they ordered Northern Command to prevent the occupation of the Glacier area by Pakistan during the mountaineering season in 1984. **

DJ: What happened?

A: What General Jahan Dad Khan has mentioned in his book “Pakistan Leadership Challenges” is absolutely true. You may like to quote him. It so happened that we chose our D day as 13 April 1984 and preempted Pakistan occupying the area. Your troops were in vigorous contact with us after April.

Quote

*When the SSG company got across Bilafond Pass (in 1983), the helicopter pilot reported an Indian location one thousand yards ahead in the Siachen Area. After seeing our helicopter, the Indian troops, comprising Ladakh Scouts, left their location in a great hurry abandoning all their rations and tentage. The SSG company stayed in this area for ten days but was ordered to withdraw in the first week of September 1983 as it had started snowing and the company did not have equipment for survival in the winter season under thirty to forty feet of snow, which is the normal snow range.

The withdrawal of the SSG company was followed by many meetings in the GHQ to decide our plan of action for the summer of 1984 when the Indians were bound to come in greater numbers. Also taken into consideration was the fact that whoever succeeded in occupying the passes first would be able to hold them as it was impossible to dislodge them from these positions due to the terrain and the conditions. As Corps Commander, I gave the following assessment to the GHQ:

Next year (1984), India is most likely to pre-empt the occupation of the main passes of Baltoro Ridge with two-battalion strength for occupation and a third battalion as reserve. It would need another brigade to provide them with logistic support. Maximum helicopter force will have to be utilized for logistic support. Their air force will be available for air cover and also air drop of supplies/equipment.

We will need a brigade group with a battalion plus to occupy these passes and the rest of the force to provide relief and logistic support. We would also need maximum porter force to carry supplies and ammunition from Goma to the glacier position. All our helicopters force, both Aloutte and Puma, will have to be mobilized for recce and logistic cover. The PAF has to stand-by to provide air cover. I had also cautioned GHQ that this operation will be very costly in logistic support. Our Military Intelligence must be alerted to keep us informed of all enemy movements beyond Leh to forestall their occupation of the glacier area.

A meeting was held in December 1983, in the GHQ Operation Room under the chairmanship of President General Ziaul Haq. After listening to the 10 Corps Plan, the COAS thought that the operation on both sides would be on a limited scale, involving not more than a brigade on the Indian side and a battalion on Pakistan’s side. The COAS had obviously underestimated the quantum of force required by both sides. He had also under-estimated the logistic problem of this operation as presented to him by the logistic staff of the GHQ. In this meeting it was decided to incorporate the PAF in this operation and Maj Gen Pir Dad Khan (Commander of the Northern Areas) was given the task of pre-empting occupation of the passes, reaching there not before May 1984, as weather conditions before that period would not allow the use of helicopters and the PAF. This decision was to be approved by Defence Coordination Committee (DCC) attended by Chairman Joint Staffs Committee and all service chiefs. So preparatory work was started on the procurement of high altitude equipment and clothing, improvement of roads and tracks, recruitment of porters etc. All these preparations were to be completed by April 1984.

I handed over command of the 10 Corps to Lieutenant-General Zahid Ali Akbar Khan on 31st March 1984 after completing my tenure of four years. I gave him a detailed briefing about this operational plan and particularly stressed the importance of Intelligence keeping a watch on Indian moves beyond Leh. However, I learned later that when our troops approached the Baltoro Ridge passes during the third week of May 1984, the Indians were already in occupation of Gyong Pass in the south, strategically important because it could interfere with the enemy’s line of logistic support. As it was impossible to dislodge the Indians, we had no option but to occupy the next highest feature opposite them. This was a great setback for Pakistan, although all plans, including the timing of troop movement, had been laid down at the highest level. We had obviously failed to appreciate the timing of the Indian move and our intelligence agencies had failed to detect the movement of a brigade-size force in this area. It was learnt that the Indians had moved up their troops from Leh in the second half of April 1984.

After the occupation of these positions by both sides, opposite each other, the border became active. Both sides started inducting heavy weapons, including artillery guns, rocket launchers, and anti-aircraft missiles. Fire duels, patrol clashes, and engagement of helicopters through anti-aircraft guns became a daily affair. Both sides also brought up more troops to counter each other. Since then there has been no substantial change in the relative position of both sides. It was in the winter of 1984 that the Pakistani troops first experienced operating at that altitude. But the troops were provided high altitude equipment and there was no abnormal loss of life due to weather conditions. Pakistan was also able to induce French Lama helicopters to make up for our disadvantage vis-a-vis the Indians. *

Unquote

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/june/interview.htm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *

*When the SSG company got across Bilafond Pass (in 1983), the helicopter pilot reported an Indian location one thousand yards ahead in the Siachen Area. After seeing our helicopter, the Indian troops, comprising Ladakh Scouts, left their location in a great hurry abandoning all their rations and tentage. The SSG company stayed in this area for ten days but was ordered to withdraw in the first week of September 1983 as it had started snowing and the company did not have equipment for survival in the winter season under thirty to forty feet of snow, which is the normal snow range. *
[/QUOTE]

:D

Thank you!!!!

You have just proven my point!!!!

You've demonstrated that in 1983, a Pakistani reconnaisance group identified an Indian military force occupying part of the Siachin area and managed to scare them away!!!!!

:wave: Asif(K)

Confused

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *

Troops or no Troops - It says that Pakistan claimed the Territory and they tried it by allowing permits to foreign nationals. Was Siachin in Pakistan Territory ?? Did they take Indian govt in confidence before allowing Visas/permits ??

I have already posted an article from JANES suggesting that "In 1983 Pakistan claimed the area for itself and eight months later began moving troops to set up pickets and establish control", which is a Clear violation of Shimla Agreement mentioned by you. Your article also supports that Pakistan indeed Re-inforced its claim to Siachen in 1983.
[/QUOTE]

Please don't talk of issues beyond your comprehension. They seem to confuse you.

I knew you would pick that one out, old habits of selective reading die very hard :hehe:.

Anyways - What was Pakistan doing at ‘Bila Fond Pass’ ?? Pakistan had already captured it. Do you even know where is it located and where LOC ends, Let me know If you want me to post a Map for you ? Bila Fond pass is one of the passes in Siachen.

“When Army Headquarters saw this and also got information that Pakistan troops had occupied Bila Fond Pass, they ordered Northern Command to prevent the occupation of the Glacier area by Pakistan during the mountaineering season in 1984.”

It was a Clear Violation of Shimla Agreement by Pakistan in 1983.

.....

who is in the right?

http://www.forisb.org/issues.html

http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/Links/about/papers/SAND98-0505-2/image/1.0-1.jpg

:k:

Just what use is all this discussion about things that happened decades ago? Everyone knows Pakistan wants Kashmir and India won't give up. In practical terms, there's very liitle India can do to stop Pakistan making these claims and even less that Pakistan can do to make India change their stance.

That along with the nuclrear capability is in effect a full STALEMATE.

The only sensible things to do then is to leave that stale and stalemated matter out of all equations and focus on trade and other bilateral ties that may at least let both the countries develop some and most importantly, bring some much needed peace in J&K.

That's why I am so hopeful that the current clamp down of terror outfits in Pakistan and the peace offer from Vajpayee are great steps in the right direction and should succeed!

On average, one Pakistani soldier is killed every fourth day, while one Indian soldier is killed every other day. Over 1,300 Pakistani soldiers have died on Siachen between 1984 and 1999. According to Indian estimates, this operation had cost India over Rs. 50 billion and almost 2,000 personnel casualties till 1997. Almost all of the casualties on both sides have been due to extreme weather conditions


Salam ,
I wanna say tht i hav copied the Above matter frm a Site
n it conveys the Concept of Wasting Lifes n Money 2
The Better way iz tht Both governmentz Should do Negotiationz
4 de Whole Dispute n they should divide there Areas n After de Division none of de Both countriez Try 2 Play up tht Matter Again
Bcoz THE WAR SUX n PEACE alwayz RULES .

n i Really Appreciate the Steps taken By Vajpayee 4 Peace in the Area
N the Mankind says JEO AUR JEENAY DOO

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IceLander007: *
Just what use is all this discussion about things that happened decades ago? Everyone knows Pakistan wants Kashmir and India won't give up. In practical terms, there's very liitle India can do to stop Pakistan making these claims and even less that Pakistan can do to make India change their stance.

That along with the nuclrear capability is in effect a full STALEMATE.

The only sensible things to do then is to leave that stale and stalemated matter out of all equations and focus on trade and other bilateral ties that may at least let both the countries develop some and most importantly, bring some much needed peace in J&K.

That's why I am so hopeful that the current clamp down of terror outfits in Pakistan and the peace offer from Vajpayee are great steps in the right direction and should succeed!
[/QUOTE]

Disarm and de-terrorize your own hindu terrorists first.