Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
Yes Musharraf is a dictator and he should honourably resign IMO and give way to a democratically elected PM and President
True and the fact that Musharraf is a 100 times better than our democratically elected leaders.
Musharraf needs to create strong institutions which curb elected official powers, checks corruption and initiate strong reforms.
And after that he can step down. But right now the Job is still not done.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
I am surprised that the thread starter fails to appreciate that Pakistani military dictators and civilian rulers are miles better than some of these Arab and Persian dictators. Yes Zia hanged Bhutto but by and large Pakistani rulers be it civilian or military have n't, cannot and would not go to the same lengths of brutality and ordering summary punishments that you find in some of these middle-eastern and persian societies. You can openly talk against Musharraf in Pakistan (You might get house-arrested! but thats about it), something you won't be able to do in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria. Even Bhutto seems like an angel when you see some of the crimes committed by Khomeini (his was a blood revolution) and Saddam. In Iran for instance many teenagers are hanged even now for presumed adultery/rape crimes most of which is unproven because I cannot believe for a moment that there are 4 clear witnesses in each alleged adultery case (unless the guilty party are foolish or drunk enough to be doing it out in the open/in a public place!).
Musharraf is a dictator and he should do the honourable thing and resign and give way to a democratically elected PM and President. Yes our politicians have been a huge disappointment in the past and they may still make more mistakes but 'real' democracy is the only way forward and the military should really confine themselves to the barracks. Perhaps it's time to bring back the 8th amendment (introduced by Zia) whereby a civilian president can remove an elected PM (as happened in 1990, 1993 and 1996), not an ideal scenario but it atleast diminishes the likelihood of another military takeover.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
Lets be realistic and objective about couple of things here. Pakistani politicians are basically corrupt, opportunistic and have no principals. Graduate assemblies have done nothing but brought their Awara, Nalaiq and 3rd division pass offsprings in the assemblies. The politics of religion, baradrism, language and region is still being practiced. The officer class of the army has total disrespect for these clowns. Army is corrupt also to a greater extent but they are loyal, disciplined and organized. Just for these added qualities they will always be better for Pakistan in the short run. Democracy is surely there but there is no capacity among the public to make a mature and informed decision. And this democratic circus of the dancing clowns (some bearded) will continue without any material change.
Things have definitely improved economically under Mushy but Law and order is breaking down and has definitely gotten worse. Pakistan's international stature has improved but internally enlightened moderation has brought all the ills and sins out in the open. My biggest concern about Musharraff's support on war on terror is that he failed to strike a good deal for Pakistan. Pakistan is their number one ally on the war on terror and what do we have to show for? very little. We should have gotten all the F-16'S we had paid for and new and advanced spare parts for this support. We should have gotten badly needed cobra and chinook helicopters (after all there is a request to bomb waziristan every 2nd day). A nuclear deal on the lines of India would have shown some respect for this Ally on terror. *To sum it up Mush could and should have done a better job in looking after Pakistan's interest. *
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
The secrets out!!!
I went to Cadet College Petaro myself
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
hear!hear! I second that motion!!
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
damn....that was him?! Sorry Fraudz, I'll return your samosa money!
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
Good post nstar777.
Very clearly and well put. I highly agree internally Mush has created a lot of blunders which have perpetuated the hard to kill political traditions of our country, and we certainly had hoped for much better under him. We are let down.
And very well stated the reason why the Army inspite of its (by all means comparitively signifcantly lower level of) corruption, will always be a better option for Pakistan.
I do though feel that when we say Mush could have gotten a better deal, we often forget that who we're bargaining with isn't our size, and if it any point the US refuses to bargain and starts demanding things from us for 'nothing' in return, even then Pakistan or Musharraf or any other *brave *politician for that matter will not be able to do anyhting and will still have to perform as per US desire. So the best deal we could have gotten (in comparison with the deals granted to Afghanistan, Iraq or with those that Syria, Iran and Korea are threatened with) is the deal that we have; i.e. we atleast get something, and a bit of what we dare ask for, cause if they refuse and have their way with us for nthing, we will have to let them have their way for nothing too; all alternatives or better deal theories will evaporate with a shock of reality then.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
^^ I agree, I think as being USA's big Ally on War on Terrorism we should have gotten more military, economic aid from USA than what we have initially gotten.
I think the reason for this is however that USA invaded Iraq and now it tied up in that War and has paid little attention to Afghanistan.
I think Pakistan also cannot rely on the United States. USA is a very unreliable ally.
We need to finish constructing our Mega Gwadar Port Project and the money which it will generate we can use that to help our economy and purchase more arms.
The Chinese J-10 Fighter is already better than the F-16 USA was going to sell us so I think its better we get the Chinese to sell us those.
After all the Gwadar port is going to benefit China a lot so I think China can sell us some great fighting equipment.
And Pakistan who will already by prodcuing JF-17 fighters.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
Another point I'd like to mention here is about how often the issue of Mush employing the notorious and corrupt figures back into key positions;
Before the 2002 elections a far lesser number of these crooks were in key offices, but back then every one wanted elections; so this is a price for want for democracy in an ailing system. A pastry on a dirty platter can cause food poisoning. So could Musharraf have filled the Parliament with over 200 new faces with clean hands and pure hearts like he had attempted to during the initial months following 12 Oct 1999? But everyone hated the small yet effective team; the int'l world as well as local politicians wanted restoration of democracy and his team was labelled "imported". SO had he a choice but to use the bad eggs for the omlette he was being forced to cook in holding the 2002 elections to return to democracy by foreign as well as local pressure? Could he have raised new politicians suddenly to run a system that is so frail and dirty? He was bound to try and tame the old players under his discilplining COAS baton-which ever so essential and more reqd now than ever. But that is where he has definitely slacked; the baton seldom appears and the disciplining has been indisciplined hence little improvements. This is where he needs to tighten the grip first. More will be looked after later. And then we can move to what system suits us better and who should be where etc. Let's smooth out what we have right now first. The surgery has to be performed with all organs running. The main aim is to improve Pakistan, by whichever hands. Right now it's Mush's Fauji hands. Provided sincerity to Pakistan comes first and self last. In that all should be measured equally, uniform or no uniform. Pakistan's soldiers take this oath and some prove it in battle. Shouldnt politcians also take an oath while entering this profession of politics?
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
What I despise most about army rule is ex-generals being appointed as heads of nearly all civilian organisations like WAPDA, CDA, PCB, PIA, CBR etc. And please do away with this notion that all officer-class army personnel are educated. Not every general ((Tikka Khan and Musa Khan (Bhutto used to make jokes about him) to name a few) were among some of the dumbest generals we have had)) can carry themselves off as well as the late General Asif Nawaz or Musharraf who was fortunate enough to have been educated at good schools abroad when his father was in the foreign service. Also not all politicians are illiterate. We have some very polished well-educated (oxbridge-educated) people in politics (Fakhr e Imam, Mushahid Hussain, Mehboob ul Haq, Khurshid Kasuri etc. to name a few).
Also this view that there is less corruption under army rule is without any real basis. If the recent transparency international report is anything to go by then this present government is more corrupt than Nawaz and Benazir. Under military rule even the most junior officers (major, Lt. col etc. they are just 17 or 18 grade officers) enjoy huge perks like plots, free medical help, cars etc.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
I will say it again, what have YOU done to remove Musharraf from this seat? Please, don't tell me you tried to explode a bomb or something, but something like street movement, protests etc? Also, when you tell us about what you have done to remove, also enlighten us who you think will take over and how he/she will be the next best thing for Pakistan since sliced bread.
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
The Question remains if Musharraf leaves, who is gonna come and fill that void?
Imran Khan?
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
^ That is correct, the question remains. However, there is a solution, conditional to sincerity of Musharraf and rest of the gang. I was hopeful just like rest of Pakistanis when Musharraf took over and started ‘cleaning up’ the mess, but it lasted only for few months and he turned out to be the same sh!t he was cleaning up. Even now it is possible to ensure a better democracy in future by not indulging in corrupt behavior like past governments i.e. horse trading, including well known past corrupt elements in govt, enforcement of law etc.
But then again as they say “is hammam mai sab hee nangay hayn” 
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
oh a patarian. many ppk from your institution go into civil services. I know a few myself. My bro in law went there but he chose a different path and became a doc.
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
so basically we should have a one term limit on PM, and at the end of the term they are hanged, tahst what u are saying?
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
^ 
I guess thats what would happen.
But seriously what I mean is that President/PM/MNAs/MPAs should be accountable when in power, there should be division of power in more than 2 institutions, judiciary should be independent of govt influences, no MPA/MNA/PM/President who has criminal history etc.
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
Exactly! well said :k:
Re: Shouldn't Musharaf be hanged.....
[quote=Captain1]
^ That is correct, the question remains. However, there is a solution, conditional to sincerity of Musharraf and rest of the gang. I was hopeful just like rest of Pakistanis when Musharraf took over and started 'cleaning up' the mess, but it lasted only for few months and he turned out to be the same sh!t he was cleaning up.
I agree Captain 1 and this Sh!t is piling up
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
I repeat that to understand the tactics of Musharraf you need a democratic upbringing and culture. Since you lack these very badly you cannot scrutinize his tactics since the Kargil invasion, later capturing power and till date.
Yes, Musharraf has done everything in the interests of India and the West. At the same time he never forgot that his audience was always the people of Pakistan. So far he has ramained succeesful in making fool of his audience from any stage wherever he has been.
Re Musharraf as the best seller…yes. This book must be considered as the best one political comedy of 21 century by a President.
Frankly Haris bhai do you really think that best seller Musharraf’ book is a genious one.
I think people always need to relax and laugh a little.
Re: Shouldn’t Musharaf be hanged…
Yaar, you so called “democratic” upbringing hasnt done much for your perception of reality in Kashmir or other places for that matter, so how valuable is your so called democratic upbringing? Your Democracy and your universal “understanding” of the political and social stage seems to end at the bordrs of Kashmir.
And isnt it a shame that despite the fact that Musharaf is the least democratic person on the entire Subcontinent, Indians with their big heads and their vaunted democratic institutions are still fooled as you put it, by no less then general in a suit!
And im sure you would consider the book a joke, considering it reveals the truth about Indian incompetace, particularly during the Kargil episode.
Honestly, if anyone is politically savy, its the Pakistanis not the Indians… Indians are drones, programed to think what the govt wants them too, while Pakistanis are unbiased by the govt or any other group.