how does someone come to believe in something? you believe in cup because you sense it through the senses,use your previous information i.e you know that this is a item used to drink etc, judge the reality and use the mind, to come to the conclusion that it is a cup. so how do you prove that there is a creator. can you prove to someone that there is creator.if not please ask me to prove it to you.
b.k
Once Imaam Hanifa was going to munazara[kinda of debate] with the people who believed that there was no God. As he was going on his way, he decided to arrive there bit late. When he arrived there to the athiests, they asked him why was he late? He replied: As I was coming, I encountered a River and I had no means to cross it except a boat. But then suddenly woods started to appear from all sides and they started to shape like a boat and than I sat in the boat and I crossed the river.
The people were amazed and shocked about "how can it be?" How can woods come together suddenly and join to make a boat for someone...
He replied my debate is over, things just do not happen, there is ALWAYS someone to make them happen. There is always someone to create things. There is a creator of the earth and universe and what ever is in between.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited December 18, 2000).]
anyone else before i reply
b.k
You believe without proof for 3 reasons:
1) What a man said
2) What a man did
3) What a man was
examples from Christianity
1) Christ words were pure inspiration to his followers. The words he said made sense to them, and gave them a blissful feeling.
2) Christ went about doing good. He uplifted those who were cast away on society, and gave a new hope to those who had no hope.
3) He was an infinite marvel - selfless, in love with everyone whether or not they loved him, and had a glory to himself that those who knew him could feel.
Certain men inspire your faith. Whether Christ, Muhammed, Krishna, whatever, that inspiration is what can make you believe.
so you believe in what a man says, what a man does and what man was. Basically different groups of people are inspired by different things so it would mean that you would get people believing in different thoughts and emotions, therefore some contradcting each others thoughts, emotions etc so how would you know which one is the correct one. Because if people are inspired by Muhamammed (saw) they will believe in oneness of god but if others are inspired by Krishna they would believe in hundreds of gods.So which is correct, obviosly both can not be right, which is it? Question how do they HIndu's come to the conclsion that there god is the cow, rat etc is probally through blind following like believing without proof. Believing in something requires that you know it is 100% correct not that you have faith in it (hopeing it to be true, like a dream).
b.k
Astrofan believing in something without proof is like following the blind into the hole.
b.k
So what exactly are you trying to say?
We should all be atheist?
That you think (incorrectly) that Krishna told us to worship 100s of Gods?
That you do not understand the importance of myth and parable with regards to theology, ethics, and morality?
I believe in my father and mother. So are you saying I should not have faith in them?
P.S. - both can be right. To wit - read a little Vivekananda to understand.
how the hick can both be right only one team one wins a football match both can not win.
So you saying all that we need to do is have good ethics, morality. So therefore who defines these the human mind? Hitler belived that ethics was to kill all the Jews, Nation of Islam believe ethics are that the whiteman is the devil, the Hindu's believe that one type of class(clan, sect whatever) is more holier etc i could give endless examples what ethics, morals are according to different people obviously all of them can not be correct as they condracid each other. The human mind is weak and limited it can not come up with a fair system of life, it will be open to contricdication, disparity, be influeneced by the eniviroment etc. Man can not come up with a solution that agrees with man's nature and built upon the mind. So who does??????
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** how the hick can both be right only one team one wins a football match both can not win. **
[/quote]
Walk outside. Look at the sun. How big is it? about the size of a U.S. quarter coin. Is that right? Not quite - we know the sun is huge, many thousands of miles in diameter, and you'll see it's huge size if you were on Mercury. But is that original perception wrong? Again, not quite - it really is what you perceive, and it is a real perception. Two different views of the same object, both right, but from different levels.
PS - In a football game, you can always tie.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** So you saying all that we need to do is have good ethics, morality. **
[/quote]
yes. it's not really a hard concept to understand.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** So therefore who defines these the human mind? **
[/quote]
yes, the human mind defines ethics and morality. Even assuming the Koran lays down the only correct system of ethics and morality, it takes your human mind to process the information, and apply the teachings to your own life.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** Hitler belived that ethics was to kill all the Jews, ... i could give endless examples what ethics, morals are according to different people obviously all of them can not be correct as they condracid each other. **
[/quote]
Sure, the field of ethics and morality has not stopped being studied, being speculated upon, or being turned upside down. As civilization progresses, so do these academic fields. Have you read any philosophy - Kant, Descartes, or even Plato? Ethics for one man may be completely different from another, the challenge is to find the system that can apply to all people at all times in all situations. If you are so fixated on needing a single definition - you have one written in the Koran. Otherwise, do some of your own speculating, and try to come up with something that makes sense to you. Maybe some Bertrand Russell may do you some enlightening.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** The human mind is weak and limited it can not come up with a fair system of life, it will be open to contricdication, disparity, be influeneced by the eniviroment etc. **
[/quote]
The first part of this statement has nothing to do with the second. (1) The human mind is not weak or limited. Try thinking hard yourself, you may be surprised at how unlimited your potential really is. You really aren't doing too bad a job of it right now (just a bit incoherent, but keep trying) (2) Of course it will be influenced by environment - we are social creatures after all. But then, if a system of ethics and morals is not practical enough to be applied to an environment, the system is useless.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** Man can not come up with a solution that agrees with man's nature and built upon the mind. So who does?????? **
[/quote]
I guess at this point, I asking you what your answer to this question is. What do you feel is the "true" answer? What are you trying to get at? What point are you trying to argue with me? Should we just all give up the study of ethics and be hedonists?
Have you actually studied high philosophy or read commentaries on the Koran or the Gita? Have you really found yourself limited by these (or other) systems of morality, or are you only passingly familiar with those canned examples you gave before?
QUOTE BY ASTROFAN
The first part of this statement has nothing to do with the second. (1) The human mind is not weak or limited. Try thinking hard yourself, you may be surprised at how unlimited your potential really is. You really aren't doing too bad a job of it right now (just a bit incoherent, but keep trying) (2) Of course it will be influenced by environment - we are social creatures after all. But then, if a system of ethics and morals is not practical enough to be applied to an environment, the system is useless.
REPLY
First how can you say that the mind is not limited ,e.g can you imagine a colour you never seen?, can you draw gas? you believe in God(i think you do) so what does he look like? can you define what unlimited is? can you really say something is unlimited? can the mind keep on growing phyisically and intellectually? can you see thought? did the mind come into existence by itself or was it created?
b.k
[This message has been edited by flikk (edited December 20, 2000).]
QOUTE BY ASTROFAN
yes, the human mind defines ethics and morality. Even assuming the Koran lays down the only correct system of ethics and morality, it takes your human mind to process the information, and apply the teachings to your own life.
REPLY
Basically this comes back to the point that the human mind is limited (speak to some kind of pyschologists etc) so it means that man's mind cannot come up with a just system. i agree with the point that the mind processes information but iam making the point that man cannot come up with a just sytem for whole of mankind, becuase man is liabale to mistakes and THE MIND IS WEAK AND LIMITED!!!!
b.k
whats this got to do with the topic ovisly
astrofan cant prove anything he is sayin never mind god
g.c.
can you imagine a colour you never seen?
Color is nothing more than the reflection of light off a surface. visible light falls in the electromagnetic wavelength range of 400-700nm. EM waves outside that range are unperceptable the human eye because the rhodopsin and associated proteins do not detect those. However, we get around this by building detectors that can measure any EM wave that can then be projected onto the visible spectrum (hello star trek tricorder). I don't need to imagine colors, I only need to comprehend what makes the colors up.
** can you draw gas? **
gas is made of moving molecules. With a small enough pen, I could draw the molecules that are moving about. Or I could draw Bromine gas, which is purple.
so what does he look like?
God has no form. Think of an abstract energy. However, the mind can make up a form (see any Hindu god for a sampling).
** can you define what unlimited is?**
infiniti
** can you really say something is unlimited?**
if it has the capacity to comprehend infiniti
** can the mind keep on growing phyisically and intellectually?**
yes
** can you see thought?**
vision is only one of the senses. You can "perceive" thought, which is what is important.
** did the mind come into existence by itself or was it created ?**
good question. we're here to speculate this. that's what the mind is for. Your Muslim friends here think it is all creation. I say it is all manifestation. So in essence, it was created as a necessary condition to nature.
it means that man's mind cannot come up with a just system
there are many just systems, and many that can apply to all of mankind. It's just that not everyone wants to live by a universally just system.
Again, what is your point to "should you believe without proof"?
*astrofan cant prove anything he is sayin *
ah, so if anything I say contradicts your belief system, it must automatically be wrong, huh? What's wrong - am I making you think to hard?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
Color is nothing more than the reflection of light off a surface. visible light falls in the electromagnetic wavelength range of 400-700nm. EM waves outside that range are unperceptable the human eye because the rhodopsin and associated proteins do not detect those. However, we get around this by building detectors that can measure any EM wave that can then be projected onto the visible spectrum (hello star trek tricorder). I don't need to imagine colors, I only need to comprehend what makes the colors up.
I think you should thinlk carefully of what you are writing , i asked you can you imagine a colour you never seen, only a to wit would not be able to answer this. i did not ask what colour is, and even you said that the mind is not able to detect the colours beyond the range. so therefore it is limited.
Let me put it to you a bit more simplier, if the oxygen stops going to the brain what happens, you die (the end of the brain). when you die, does the brain still think? so therefore if the brain has end it has a begining so it is limited. if it is not limited how come the brain stops growing, may be you brain is the size of the world.
you said that unlimited is infinite so what does it look like, if your god is energy then it can be destroyed, so therefore it is not the creator.
Finally what is all this leading to? well to make this short for the time being. That all creation is limited and dependent on something, that being is the CREATOR. man can not come up with just system of life, the one who created us knows us inside out so it is He who knows the best system.
PS WHERE ARE THESE SO CALLED JUST SYSTEMS YOU MENTIONED
b.k
*I think you should thinlk carefully of what you are writing , i asked you can you imagine a colour you never seen, only a to wit would not be able to answer this. *
simple question - if I said I would be able to imagine a color I have never seen (say ultraviolet which actually shows up as a bright white to the naked eye), would you believe me? I can imagine all sorts of things. Slashdot had an article on tetrachromats two weeks ago (as opposed the normal trichromats). Makes for interesting reading. Besides, you didn't get the gist of my answer - by asking if I could imagine a color, you were asking the wrong question. Color is a projection of EM waves, limited by our sensory perceptions. By instead detecting EM waves, we move beyond the limits that the colors of the visible spectrum impose.
when you die, does the brain still think?
no. but then, you are assuming the mind is limited to the functioning of the brain. Even if I take everything in your posts as true, you have yet to dispute advaita, wherein Atman is Brahman, and our minds are only clouded from seeing that the infinite God is part and parcel of our being.
if it is not limited how come the brain stops growing, may be you brain is the size of the world.
oh come on - you know the size of the brain does not define it's capacity. The ability to comtemplate infiniti does not itself require infinite resources.
if your god is energy then it can be destroyed
dude, energy cannot be destroyed (first law of thermodynamics). But then, God is not simply energy, since he is unmanifest.
*That all creation is limited and dependent on something, that being is the CREATOR. *
ah, so you should believe without proof. Finally, you answer your question.
PS WHERE ARE THESE SO CALLED JUST SYSTEMS YOU MENTIONED
WELL SINCE YOU'VE TAKEN UP YELLING, I'LL YELL BACK. LET US START WITH THE BOY SCOUT OATH OF :
TRUSTWORTHY
LOYAL
HELPFUL
FRIENDLY
COURTEOUS
KIND
OBEDIENT
CHEERFUL
THRIFTY
BRAVE
CLEAN &
REVERENT
THAT MAKES FOR A JUST SYSTEM. BUT CLEARLY, THAT'S NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU. SO LET'S DELVE DEEPER - STARTING WITH IMMANUEL KANT, AND HIS SIMPLE FORMULATION OF THE "CATEGORICAL IMPERATIVE" - "Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law" WHICH CAN BE RESTATED AS "So act as to treat humanity, whether in your own person or in another, always as an end, and never as only a means." NAMELY "men can only ask themselves whether what they are proposing to do has the formal character of law--the character, namely, of being the same for all persons similarly circumstanced." THIS IS A JUST SYSTEM, WHICH ENCOMPASSES THE GOLDEN RULE - "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU".
OR IS THIS SYSTEM NOT JUST?
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited December 21, 2000).]
i say the mind is limitted.
[quote]
Originally posted by flikk:
** i.e you know that this is a item used to drink etc, judge the reality and use the mind, to come to the conclusion that it is a cup. so how do you prove that there is a creator. can you prove to someone that there is creator.if not please ask me to prove it to you.
**
[/quote]
So when you see a cup, what comes in your mind? That this cup is an accidental creation of nature? That something happened; sun raises melted the plastic, created an accidental design which formed a shape of cup which you use to drink coffee/tea? How funny! right? So my dear friend, when you we see something, the obvious thing that comes in our mind that there must be some creator who built this thing. For example, when you see a computer, do u think that its a miraculous incident of nature? Ofcourse NO. There are big companies like DELL, IBM etc who have thousands of employees who work together and build this small piece.
So now question arises, all these people/animals/plants are these accidentally created by nature? Take a look at an smallest being like bacteria. See how complex it is. It knows how to survive in unfriendly atmosphere etc. Now if you look at human beings, see how complex this being is. Each part of our body is so complex that years have passed but still scientist find more and more knowledge about functionality of brain and still believe that they dont know 99% of it.
So it is absurd to believe that no one is behind the creation of man/universe/anything.
I hope this answers ur question.
[quote]
Originally posted by clubber lang:
i say the mind is limitted.
[/quote]
That comes as no surprise.
Well I read in book that mathematically, the probabilty of accidential creation of a part of a living cell is 100000000000000000000000 to 1. U can now imagine what would be the probabilty of the accidental creation of a single cell, or for that matter, a human being.
I think this provides a clear proof of the existence of a creator.
what if humans die off like dinosaurs
would they come back from extinction?
or humans race will never die off?
if there is no humans on this earth
still god will be there for non-human life like bacteria or other organisms?