The recent question in some parts of the Sunni world about whether or not one should regard Hizbollah vs Israel as jihad is an interesting reminder of how politically divided a front Muslims present, and it isnt clear to me whether viewing the conflict in context of sects is wrong (although i feel it is, but i cant prove that).
the wahabies arent alone in this. Most shias did not support the taliban against the US. While there are important differences, shias for instance had a perception (whether correct or not) that taliban slaughtered shias while in govt and there was a considerable increase in shia killings when taliban hid in Karachi, whereas Hizbullah is almost a nationalistic uprising and includes sunnies and christians in its ranks. In that war it was the case of american proxy war through other Muslims against Muslims, as opposed to a direct jewish state vs muslim war.
However, you can be sure that pretty much the most significant reason for not emotionally supporting taliban was that the blood filled enmity between wahabies/wahabi-ish people (im not sure if taliban were strictly salafies) and shias.
Likewise now we’re seeing battle lines drawn along sect lines. Jordanian, egyptian and saudi govts are encouraging the conflict to be seen as shia nations profiting on Sunni arab misery (not true, lebanon is dominantly shia). We have this thread where its being argued whether and to what extent one should support shia hizbollah, the parallel being drawn by one poster between the heroic Muhammad bin Qasim and presumably heroic Olmert, or at most the lukewarm enemy of my enemy is my enemy-ish friend for now. Not that that is the dominant salafi view that I’ve encountered, they seem evenly divided about this.
But is it idealistic to blur sectarian lines? After all, the politics of sect are happening, and there is hardly anyone fighting for a Muslim cause beyond sects. And if you throw your support behind ideals that have no physical representation in the war, ie “we are all Muslims” “we shouldnt see sects” we will inevitably see that nobody involved in the fight is representing that opinion.
So just so our views are consistent with reality, are we actually right in rooting for shias and deobandi and barelvi? Sure jump on the Muslim bandwagon when it comes, until then should we ask “what kind of Muslim?” before we support them against a jew? After all that Muslim might well turn around and shoot you when hes done with the jew
I think that its very likely and maybe not as much because of belief system, but because of the hunger for power. the belief system will then be used an excuse or a rallying cry just as religion right now is the rallying cry for some of these groups.
Ravage, I just want to know in your opinion when is war considered to be a jihad?
On a side note, there are deep differences among the Israelis as well, especially the orthodox Jews vs. liberal ones in terms of making Israel a Jewish state vs. a secular Jewish nation. These differences become apparent when there is no itefada, so please don’t think it’s only Muslims who have a hard time trying to get over differences.
I think that its very likely and maybe not as much because of belief system, but because of the hunger for power. the belief system will then be used an excuse or a rallying cry just as religion right now is the rallying cry for some of these groups.
pir sahab nawazish but your post isnt exactly clear to me. what distinction are you making between belief system and religion, i thought the terms were substitutable.
Ravage, I just want to know in your opinion when is war considered to be a jihad?
IMO there is defensive and offensive jihad. war is defensive jihad if it is waged in order to defend a Muslim country. for offensive jihad you have more conditions, but Im not aware of anywhere where Muslims are actually fighting to gain foreign territory so we can leave that aside for now.
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On a side note, there are deep differences among the Israelis as well, especially the orthodox Jews vs. liberal ones in terms of making Israel a Jewish state vs. a secular Jewish nation. These differences become apparent when there is no itefada, so please don’t think it’s only Muslims who have a hard time trying to get over differences.
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Theres the key problem. With the exception of a very small minority, Israeli sectarianism is generally subdued during times of war, furthermore, there is also a physical representation of the perspective that "secular or religious state, we must 'protect' Israel". this is absent amongst Muslims, at present no non-sect based "muslim" group is in operation that is fighting for "muslim" causes whether shia or sunni, therefore a notion that transcends sects has no physical representation.
this thread isnt about lamenting sectarian issues in the Muslim world. Sects are a reality and politics of sects also a reality. Is it idealistic to argue that we should overlook this reality when throwing our emotional support somewhere?
primary difference would be in who can rule and how he can come into power.
well.. sunnies you would know well enough, the ideal is the governance of the four caliphs, election of a leader by a committe of elders etc.
with shias its slightly different, traditionally shia clerics were quietists (maybe because they were mostly out of power) and there was an implicit seperation of faqih (cleric) and state, and the state could be democratic or kingship or whatever, just allow people to live by fiqh and clerics would be fine. like iraq for example, with sistani being a quietist cleric. with khomaini in iran came the philosophy that the faqih can also be ruler, and so in a significant part of the shia world (iran), governance is now via democratically elected rulers bounded in their powers by a powerful clergy.
On a side note, there are deep differences among the Israelis as well, especially the orthodox Jews vs. liberal ones in terms of making Israel a Jewish state vs. a secular Jewish nation. These differences become apparent when there is no itefada, so please don’t think it’s only Muslims who have a hard time trying to get over differences.
But both are about having an existent Israel so there internal differences should not matter to us.
I would not necessary blame sects for our demise. There is politics involved; it will be an American-Israeli dream if Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other Muslim countries openly criticize Israeli action and American support for it. They will say, see terrorists…! Saudi Arabia is providing financial aid to Lebanon, $1.5 Billion so far and probably more to come later. Jordan supplied medical supplies to Lebanon. Therefore, it is not like Shia or Lebanese left behind by us. It is not as if we are not praying for them.
I think Muslims are united, I would not say Sunni necessarily are scared of a Shia government; if they are they would be in the same way if any Sunni extremist takes over the country. It is all about representation in this world and for Muslims countries; they need leaders who can play that delicate role of working with the west and at the same time be “the great Muslim leader”. It is impossible these days when you have Americans supporting Israel enthusiastically and at the same time carrying out its “Campaign against Terror”.
