Should Pakistan impose "PURDAH" on its female residents?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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ooooo k..some of us need to calm down a bit.

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now anchal auntie, u needn’t quote everything i say to prove your point

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I see where you’re coming from…

Now when you talk about other ‘mega huge problems’, can i assume you’re relating to poverty,child labour and other such issues? (if not, plz do define these mega huge problems) Those are considered political problems because if we were to follow teh true religion of Islam, we wouldn’t have such problems arising day by day. For example, if followed the procedure of equality, we would instantly have a large percentage of the population employed instead of having some quota system present in the gov’t. So, as i’ve stated earlier..women adn their respect is one of the huge mega issues of ISLAM.

As far as ‘FORCE’ is concerned, if you have recently paid a visit to the country esp karachi, you should know that today, the only way to recover the religion is FORCE. We have the rich females wearing skirts and tops with no one telling them to stop (as stated earlier in the posts) adn we all know kay ‘kharbooza kharboozay ko dekh kar rang pakarta hai’…the middle class ( i hate to use these terms.) girls automatically become affected and then the trend of sleevless qameez’s and ankle high shalwar becomes ‘in’.
SO, if we were to force teh female residents into something of benefit for the RELIGION and themSELVES, i think we might get somewhere…i see Saudi Arabia functioning properly (without BAGHAWAT)and I ALSO SEE THE PAKISTANI FEMALES LIVING THERE FUNCTIONING PROPERLY WITH SUCH LAWS(without BAGHAWAT AGAIN)…(plz read my post in response to jannu’s post about saudi arabia)

We cannot TEACH the men until we set an example by ourselves!!! You cannot control a man’s eyes if you have some tight-as- shirt on with a rope like duppatta around your neck!

**You know this is rather amusing
so you visit mamoo ka ghar for bout 2 months and you consider yourself an expert in wht goes around in pakistan?I suggest go back to pakistan and live day to day with the average Pakistani women and experience what they experience and feel what they feel and then start suggesting what is right and what is wrong **
Auntie, EXPERIENCE doesnt take years to be BORN! it can happen in just mere seconds…and I am telling you from my experince the difference b/w both situations…have you given it a try?

**I dont understand …
in order to gain confidence you needed a burqah?umm so next time i go to give some test all i need is my burqah and that will provide me with the confidence ?
Self confidence comes from within not from clothes …Hiding behind a burqah you are denying to confront the problem but rather being supressed by it **

Plz auntie, look at in an optimistic way,don’t try to bend the sight Islam has provided you with…where did the test and burqah come in?..that’s just criticizing what we are told…THe burqah or a covering of teh female body is there to keep you ‘clean’ from teh eyes of the non-mehrams…WHat do you mean, hiding behind a burqah?..are you implying that the burqah is there for those of us who cant face the problems? No, it is not there for such reasons…It is there for our benefit…Islam is there for our benefit.

PSS:no one said niqab was mandatory,its hijab thats mandatory…hijab literally means covering…
Originally posted by Hinna:
**Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: “They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms…”. . Surah Al-Ahzab (34:59) states: “O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested.” **

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Funky desi,,,,,RESEARCH has to be done before making implication on a mass crowd....preferrably the talibans....as you might know..many sites today have false info on them regarding Islam adn its followers..
Originally posted by FunkyDesi:
Anchal I agree w/ u- 100% ob this! Arguing w/ thm is like banging your head against a wall. They most probably are pakka Jamaatis' who evn back home used to literally harrass us students- men & women included!It used to irk me & my frnds evn more when they wud try to force their same over zealous fanatic views on evryone - all in t/ name of Islam! My husband & his frnds, who went to a diffrnt uni ib a diffrnt city had t/ same experiences & thyr just normal well balanced ppl meaning not too westrnized nor too narrowminded.GFQ: I could say t/ same for your source of refernces that thyr extremely biased!! But hey I have bettr things to do. You wanna bury your head in t/ sand regarding WOMEN'S issues in our culutre & society & blame evrything on "if only women wud wear burqah/naqaab" thn that's your problm. You're not t/ first, nor will be t/ last to think like that!!

Im not sure it would be right to criticize some group of ppl who want to spread teh knowledge they obtained from the quran or the hadiths...(let me assure you, im not one of them, yet i would prefer to be one)...YOu being a female should worry about the consequences set upon you by the religion...i mean,,,how hard is it to cover yourself???????

ISLAM IS A VERY SIMPLE RELIGION!!! IT TEACHES US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIVES ON EARTH SO THAT WE CAN OBTAIN THE BEST OF OUR AFTERLIFE AFTER JUDGEMENT DAY!!!

Some ppl try to make Islam narrow and hard to follow......that is wrong.......Islam is just a guideline for us to follow........we shouldn't make additions/subtractions for we dont' know what is right and wrong beyond the Holy Book and the Prophet's Hadiths...

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most men don't respect women in pakistan. i was in pakistan in december, and went back there after 6 yrs. before i was too young to notice how women are treated in everyday life there. i'm talking about when they are in public. i was surprised to see this.

its like, they've never seen women before. the fact that 'rich girls' wear what they want, is no excuse.

education is important, and thats the only thing that can change things..

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[quote]
Originally posted by Anchal:
**Sweetie pardon my ignorance but isnt religion supposed to be for both men and omen equally Women are expected to follow the religion but men arent?

The religion teaches men to lower their gaze in the presence of namehram women.
Does a average Pakistani Male practice this ?
**
[/quote]

Quran recognizes the sexual nature of human beings. Men are sexually excited visually and women are not. I understand what you are saying. Negating what I said earlier on education as the answer, I would say that, atleast in Pakistan, it is common Islamic knowledge not to look at nomehrum women. So, education here is not the answer. The environment is become polluted and the answer as X_COMMIE said might just be in violent revolution (I am just thinking out loud here! ).

The effort has to be made by both the men and women with the larger burden falling on women. Women, if they get into a situation, will not and can not protect themselves. If you get my drift. Once a situation arises, there are some very visual signals that promote certain impulsive behaviors from those who get excited by the flip of a switch. Why the segregation of sexes in many places? Mind wanders, eyes wander, heart rates rise, blood pressures rise, thought take place. level of self-control is different in everyone.

A local White Christian reporter once did a story on this topic for a local newspaper. She went to a mall all dressed up like a barbie. She scoped the mall to find a group of men standing and talking. She found one after a while. The report started to walk towards them and went past them. She may have walked about 25-45 feet when she turned around to look behind her. All the men in the group were looking at her.

The next day, she said, she went with a mid-calf skirt, head-scarf, very light makeup and just a whiff of perfume. she repeated the procedure at the mall. This time she did not find anyone looking at her. The reporter's name is Sherma Kay Bass and she did the report for the Ft. Worth Star Tele-gram (or it might have been for the Dallas Morning News) about two years ago.

I rememeber the article vividly since it make me think of what the post is about. Like some here, Sherma said that it is more of women's responsibility to cover herself more. It falls on the mothers to teach their daughters about this practice.

But in our culture/religion, it also falls on the fathers to teach their daughters. It is not difficult in the West. Surely there are some problems but nothing that problematic. Time is making it easier and easier, with CAIR also providing an helping hand with the Muslim donations.

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smiles So amnesty international is biased?
Funkydesi, rawa.org deliberately posts up misleading information, especially in regards to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, and the taliban. Just an example of this is the explanatory paragraph just above where they list the ‘restrictions’ imposed on women by the taliban, wherein it likens the taliban government to the rabbani regime among others…while in reality the taliban emerged to oppose the indecency, treachery, and inhumanity exercised by these regimes.

rueful smile where did that come from? Where did i say that women wearing burqa/niqaab would solve all our problems? Where did i state or imply that issues regarding women in our culture/society have no importance to me? Me doth think you take too much upon thyself.

Since you are so concerned about my views regarding religion and culture, let me clarify them for you. I am someone who believes that if you follow islam, no distinction can be made between religion and culture. There are many instances in pakistan, afghanistan and throughtout the world where women of our culture are abused and oppressed in the ‘name’ of religion i am in no way denying those situations, those are facts. But you cannot blame them on Islam or Islamic Shariah, which is what the Talibans are enforcing in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The Shariah contains instructions for every aspect of life; aiming towards the success and welfare of mankind in this life and the hereafter. We’ve all seen the headlines, the news stories, the statistics, and we all know the usual calamities and fates that befall many women in our culture. But you cannot liken these practices with islam. These practices are not the result of Islam, they arise from the prevalent cultures of those regions. Dominant, it could almost be said, to the culture of Islam, despite the fact that the people of those regions may profess a belief in Islam. For Islam and Islamic culture are one and the same, one who pursues Islam will maintain an Islamic attitude towards life and thus develop an ‘Islamic culture’, by that i mean that whatever there is in his/her own culture that is unfavourable in Islam will be discarded, and that which is permissible will be retained, thus the development of Islamic culture.

Alright lecture over, i’m out. Fee AmaanAllah

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[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:

Now when you talk about other 'mega huge problems', can i assume you're relating to poverty,child labour and other such issues?

[/quote]

Aaah the ignorant ones
laughz
no sweetie those are not 'the' problems ..

quote

[/quote]

I am referring to Prostitution that is unislamic
i am referring to the existence of Heera Mandi that is Unislamic
i am referring to the spread of AIDS through these unislamic activities

[quote]

For example, if followed the procedure of equality, we would instantly have a large percentage of the population employed instead of having some quota system present in the gov't.
[/quote]

Child you are so so very ignorant of whats happening in the world
Quota System ...forget it
what bout rishwat khoori ...isnt that unislamic
how bout safarish ?

[quote]

So, as i've stated earlier..women adn their respect is one of the huge mega issues of ISLAM.
[/quote]

Women should be respected agreed
wearing a piece of cloth wont earn em respect
In order to respect women, men need to start treating them as women and not as some piece of meat to feast on

[quote]
As far as 'FORCE' is concerned, if you have recently paid a visit to the country esp karachi, you should know that today, the only way to recover the religion is FORCE.
[/quote]

You wanto discuss religion in karachi
There is no religion in karach
There are the jamatis ....the cause of all the danga fasad
their women have nothing better to do then arrange dars where they sit for four hours nibbling on finger foods and drinking tea
they collect chanda which goes in their pockets

then there are the hari pagri walay
they can be found outside sabzi mandi after the hours just having fun in the name of religion

Then there are those who are the quiet ones ...they dont go to mosques cause they fear to be gunned down while offering prayers by some members of these religious sects

Ever seen namazis lying on the janamaz bleeding to death?
No you just went to the beach came back and consider yourself an expert in whats happening in the country

Seen the only brother of nine sisters shot down cause he was a Shia ?
No cause you were too busy eating icecreams and pizzas

[quote]

adn we all know kay 'kharbooza kharboozay ko dekh kar rang pakarta hai'...the middle class ( i hate to use these terms.) girls automatically become affected and then the trend of sleevless qameez's and ankle high shalwar becomes 'in'.
[/quote]

Sweetie either you are very ignorant or you are acting to be one
Tell me so if in your school girls wear tank tops ad shorts would you be wanting to wear em too?

[quote]

SO, if we were to force teh female residents into something of benefit for the RELIGION and themSELVES, i think we might get somewhere....
[/quote]

Where?

[quote]

.i see Saudi Arabia functioning properly (without BAGHAWAT)and I ALSO SEE THE PAKISTANI FEMALES LIVING THERE FUNCTIONING PROPERLY WITH SUCH LAWS(without BAGHAWAT AGAIN)....(plz read my post in response to jannu's post about saudi arabia)

[/quote]

Ever had the opportunity to interact with a average Saudi woman?
ever asked her how she feels under all those thick clothes in the heat of the dessert?
ever heard her views on her way of life trapped in the house not allowed to work, go out, drive, not have a say ?
ever ever ever had the chance to ?

[quote]

We cannot TEACH the men until we set an example by ourselves!!! You cannot control a man's eyes if you have some tight-as- shirt on with a rope like duppatta around your neck!

[/quote]

Sweetie where have you seen a average pakistani woman wearing a tight shirt with a rope like duppatta?
I have had the opportunirty to live in many cities of pakistan from the north to the south ....
never seen such women wearing such attire walking the streets

[quote]

Auntie, EXPERIENCE doesnt take years to be BORN! it can happen in just mere seconds....and I am telling you from my experince the difference b/w both situations....have you given it a try?
[/quote]

No you are wrong
wearing a burqah would in no way provide you with any guarantee tht you wouldnt be harrassed in public by men

My final thought
Nothing can be forced onto anybody

If a individual forces his body onto another individual its regarded as invading the body of a person and known as rape

If a individual forces their beliefs onto another individual it is also invading the beliefs of a person

Nothing can be acheived by force
the outcome is only Hate

No woman should fear Men
A modestly dressed woman has the right to walk outside without being harrassed by men

The problem here is no the dress of a woman
Its the mentality of men
Some ignoarant fella mentioned that Men cant help it cause its in their hormones

That is a sad reply and a very stupid way of covering up the narrow minded mentality of such men

I say grow up !!!!

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Anchal

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**I am referring to Prostitution that is unislamic i am referring to the existence of Heera Mandi that is Unislamici am referring to the spread of AIDS through these unislamic activities **
auntie dear, first of all,pakistan is one of the lowest ranked countries for aids or prostitution percentages…Yet we would be first few to be ranked for corruption, poverty, child labour..etc.

**
Child you are so so very ignorant of whats happening in the world Quota System …forget it what bout rishwat khoori …isnt that unislamic how bout safarish ?**
yes…rishwat is haram…and therefore should be eliminated…and btw,i dont think im ignorant if at this age

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,im thinking about such problems…

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**Women should be respected agreed
wearing a piece of cloth wont earn em respect In order to respect women, men need to start treating them as women and not as some piece of meat to feast on **
Can you then imply that the hadiths of the prophet were wrong?..the cloth gives us nothing for our benefit? c’mon..we are not in the status to twist & turn the sunnah.

**Ever seen namazis lying on the janamaz bleeding to death?No you just went to the beach came back and consider yourself an expert in whats happening in the country Seen the only brother of nine sisters shot down cause he was a Shia ?No cause you were too busy eating icecreams and pizzas **
No, not in reality…i’ve seen pictures..and no i did not plan a picnic right after i heard the death of close relatives in the mosques…I never said i was an expert on the country’s political situation…my recent visit to the country taught me that one cannot have ‘fun’ when in the back of his/her mind knows that a murder might be taking place on the next street…sigh

Sweetie either you are very ignorant or you are acting to be one
Tell me so if in your school girls wear tank tops ad shorts would you be wanting to wear em too?
no auntie, personally i wont,but so far..even the girl next to me at the moment reflects my views of the ‘fitting in’.

**Sweetie where have you seen a average pakistani woman wearing a tight shirt with a rope like duppatta?
I have had the opportunirty to live in many cities of pakistan from the north to the south …
never seen such women wearing such attire walking the streets **
oh man, u really need to pay another visit down there…i just came back a month ago…u dont want to know lady…its worse than you can imagine…and im talking majority…not minority…

**No you are wrong
wearing a burqah would in no way provide you with any guarantee tht you wouldnt be harrassed in public by men **
I never gave you a guarantee…but wouldnt a female want self satisfaction?

TELL ME, WOULD YOU FEEL BETTER WEARING REGULAR CLOTHES (SHALWAR QAMEEZ) OR A COVERING OVER YOUR BODY SO THE MAN STANDING NEXT TO YOU IN LINE DOESNT NOTICE YOUR STANDARD 32-26-32 (didnt wanna use that..but oh well)??? WOULDNT YOU HAVE A BETTER SELF SATISFACTION KNOWING THAT YOU’RE FOLLOWING THE RELIGION THAT IS RIGHT???

**No woman should fear Men
A modestly dressed woman has the right to walk outside without being harrassed by men **
Get real auntie

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

, that aint happenin anytime soon…and YOU AND I know it aint…so why don’t we as females try to protect ourselves from the harrasment by atleast GIVING SOMETHING (SUNNAH) A TRY?

**The problem here is no the dress of a woman
Its the mentality of men
**
hmm…so now you’re telling me to question the SUNNAH??? If it was just the change of mentality for the male gender…the sunnah about women covering themselves would have never came about!!! SO basically,a female can walk out with nothing on and yet the male shouldn’t look because he needs to change his mentality??? ugh…plz…

[This message has been edited by X_Communist (edited November 13, 2000).]

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GFQ: Boy are you misgiuded!
Me - "concerned" about YOUR views reagrding religion & culture!! Plssss! get a grip "MODERATOR" lIKE i said earlier you're not t/ first , nor will b- t/ last w/ these ideas (aap jaisay kaii Jamaatii paray hain Pakistan main & irritate t/ hell out of evrybody by continually harassing both men & women!!) & pls don't preach me on what Islam is or not. I'm not sum gora who you can feed whatevr you want to!!

Again: "How easy to praise TALIBANs on thr views on women while living in t/ West"!

X COMMIE : That was digusting by t/ way !! & it's ppl like yourself who'll still oggle a woman evn in a burqa & whisper obscenities like " Burqay kay peechay kiya hay???" Also, if you wanna join Jamaatiis' who's stopping you, go ahead!!

I have lived in Pakistan prtty much all my life. Also,have you ever evn "bothered " to ask a Saudi womean how she feels & what truly her status is back thr?? NOt having any1 trust you or be allowed to drive or evn allowed to work unless you're a doc or a teacher, evn thn it's a hassle!! Why dont you guys get our facts straight b-4 trying to lecture us !!
T/ list cud go on , but not worth it, as you guys JUST dONT GET IT: NO ONE CAN FORCE RELIGION ON YOU, or thr are long term consecquences.

Final Adios!! DONT BOTHR REPLYING BACK, cuz you guys miss my point & depress me cuz it's a reminder that thr are actually ppl like you out thr!!

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Originally posted by FunkyDesi:
GFQ: Boy are you misgiuded!

Okay so if i'm misguided tell me where? Empty accusations will get you nowhere. Alright so you weren't concerned about my views, still u did drag in other issues besides the taliban upon which you u assumed 'my views' smiles
Anyways, i'm genuinely interested in what you think i'm misguided, so shoot....

Originally posted by FunkyDesi:
DONT BOTHR REPLYING BACK, cuz you guys miss my point & depress me cuz it's a reminder that thr are actually ppl like you out thr!!

wry smile You know, points are easy to miss when they aren't backed up with anything substantial.

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I still haven't heard about how much authority that state is given under the shariah to impose the Islamic injunctions...

52

Originally posted by FunkyDesi:
X COMMIE : That was digusting by t/ way !! & it's ppl like yourself who'll still oggle a woman evn in a burqa & whisper obscenities like " Burqay kay peechay kiya hay???" Also, if you wanna join Jamaatiis' who's stopping you, go ahead!!

and what was disgusting, if i may ask?
how can i 'oogle' women if im a women and lemme make this clear--i aint no lesbo.
such thoughts like burqay kay peechay kya hai are thougths that arise in minds like yours esp. being a female....

as for the jamaatis, some are extremists...some are meres.....and im neither!!! I'm a muslim..following the Quran and the SUNNAH!!!

as i've stated above >>>ISLAM IS A VERY SIMPLE RELIGION TO FOLLOW, IF YOU CHOOSE TO FOLLOW IT RIGHT!!!

oh by the way,,,,you realy need to relax and take a deep breath.....its just a post concerning everyone's opinion..im not enforcing hijab on you.....calm down...

Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That's why we call it PRESENT!

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Well it's either "burqay kay peechay" or "choli kay peechay".

Mentality of men will never change unless they are (going to be) good Muslims.

Who says nothing is impossible? I've been doing nothing all my life!

[This message has been edited by Hum Sa Ho To Samne Aaye (edited November 14, 2000).]

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choli/burqah....shouldn't really go together, should they???

as far as teh men, anchal auntie is right about sunnah regarding men to lower their gaze,,,,,but for females who have to face these men, shouldn't they cover themselves because they can't really beat up a man to lower his gaze.....yes,,imposing that law would be good...but it should be imposed with a purdah law.......so its hand in hand....50/50....

Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That's why we call it PRESENT!

55

Malodorous_Desi brighten your self. 8^)

praise Talibans so strongly but conveniently ignore the way they treat women who are denied t/ basic right to education. It’s going to become apparent how far back they have been left behind in t/ future. Women are not allowed to go to Doctors cuz they are males, but thn there wont be any female doctrs cuz not allowed to study aftr I believe it’s t/ 5th grade or so etc.etc.etc.

Do you know why women were not allowed to go to school? Well don’t expect me to tell you, cuz I wont. Find it like the other crap you found about them. They have female doctors too you know (just shows how much you really now). Women are going back to schools and so are young girls. They have jobs as doctors and teachers. They proved to the world on the news (On CBS A yahoodi channel-surprised?-) a month ago.

It’s so easy to praise Talibans evry move while living cozily in t/ West!!How ironic is that?

Funky Desi, what Taliban are practicing now was and is being practiced in NWFP. I grew up there and I know and for most I am Proud of it and will be. The reason the world didn’t know about it cuz Pakistanis like your self were proud of having it, because it made Pakistan look more civilized, humane and ofcourse more ISLAMIC!

Any doubts?

But now since its Afghan, everyone is acting like they never had seen it before, like its something new.

I realize this is a sensitive topic, specially regarding women & Talibans & I’m clearly aware that @ least in this forum I’m in t/ minority, but sumhow my conscience duz not allow me to sit back & watch ppl praise thm for all atrocities i’m in t/ minority, but sumhow my conscience duz not allow me to sit back & watch ppl praise thm for all atrocities committed by thm against t/ women. Like I said earlier “it’s easy to praise Talibans while sitting in t/ U.K. or t/ U.S.”

Really? So if everyone is praising to Taliban and you think its not right to comply, that doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone is wrong. You might be the defect.

point has however been missed here & that’s fine cuz anything less I did not expect!! & F.Y.I. www.rawa.org was just one of my sources!! unlike your assumption I do not rely on westrn media alone, infact aftr t/ fiasco in t/ ME, it’s quite rare! I do have Afghani freinds, so unlike your second assumption I get my sources FIRST HAND - NOT second hand!! Anyway, I realize it’s a futile discussion .

Rawa.org?
Man…..at least sheraz gets his info from ZTV.

Afghani friends? Are they Tajik? Or Pashtuns? And after finding that out, I want them to meet my First Hand Illuminators! People who actually fought for Afghan. Ask your friends if they had anyone from their family that had spared their life for Afghanistan?

All these Afghan wannabes are just buncha western born or runaway cowards or are heavily influenced by absurd Persians and Iranis.

Taliban secretly and safely kept their country respect and honor alive. They didn’t care what masseurs or limits they had to take or cross, for them the most important thing was keeping their country respect/honor safe from being destroyed by shameless leaders. They took it upon them selves like it was family affair. The world didn’t need to know what was really going on because to them the world didn’t matter. Respect and honor did!

Remember! That the Taliban are like a COCOON for Afghanistan.
It might look ugly!
Taste ugly!
Feel ugly!
But what comes out, will be wondrous like the beauty of a colorful butterfly.

Salaam

We are the Taleban! Resistance is Futile!

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited November 15, 2000).]

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Hmmm nice metaphor Yb:)

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X_xommunist, i am all for shariah, but let me get my point across. in my understanding of the sharia, i understand that it is mandatory for women to wear higab, but it is the order of allah, and a women should do it to please allah only, my sis in US wears higab (scarf and a gown) and she goes to college, i don't see how it makes her life a hell. my cousins in pak started burqa, even to elders of the khandan, and they were made fun of at my very
liberal khandan, but all of the younger generation cousins support it, they showed that if u want to do it, then you must be willing to accept that ppl will make fun of u and u better not take back your steps. now for a dress code in an islamic country, we should have a dress code as last time i visited khi, i saw almost half naked girls in the clifton area i lived. so i am for a dress code, that half of the hands and legs till calves must be covered, so our society can be a little on the path of islam, but the hijab should be explained and described to the girls rather than imposed upon them. they should choose it and not be forced it, and that will be better as islam is not something to be forced upon beleiving, but a way of life that you have to choose and act on by ur own will, that's what i think