Should Pakistan impose "PURDAH" on its female residents?

FunkyDesi:

First thing is that those estimates are from 1997 and not 1977

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Second, u are right bcz the ppl you move around with, would be the ones keeping fast. Similarly my circle of friends is also like me, and the normal everyday folks I come across with are also similar sort of muslim like I am.

But when we talk about the whole country and the whole population of Pakistan we must look at the statistical estimates. Broadly speaking 77% of Pakistanis live on or below the poverty line. And roughly 2-5% are the ones who are the rich ones, the upper class. Those in the middle are the ones whom we call the middle-class. The middle class is the one which takes great care to adhere to most of the religious rulings, including prayers and fasting.

The poor, though try but some things are just beyond them. For example, a contruction laborer, just does not have the ability to fast in Ramadan, keeping in view the extraordinarily hard physical labor he has to do. We, you and me, avoid doing physical activities while we are fasting. Imagine a worker or a laborer can not give up on physical activities bcz they are his only source of income. I am generalizing here, but as per the estimates I got, an over-whelming majority of lower-class and poor of Pakistan do not fast, nor pray. Unfortunately, the same is true for the rich, who, generally, tend to take Islam as a joke. There are good muslims in all societies and across financial standings…so we can not automatically assume that a rich or the poor is following Islamic mandatory rulings or not, but the probability of a correct estimate increases when we look at the general trends.


Don’t Blame me…
C’est La Vie
:slight_smile:

funky desi,nope, didnt intend to insult you…

but most of us growing up here in the west, are bought by the propaganda set up by the political powers…

try http://www.taleban.com/taleb.htm
really informative site about the revolutionists…

the problem is: when some group actually stands up to these anti-truth politicians, fellow followers of the same beliefs oppose or criticize minor pts…which in a way is helping to cause the collapse of such rebellious organizations…

as far as pakistan and hijaab…it would be better for females themselves (on j-day) if they wore a burqah, instead of tight as* pants or sleevless qameezes…


Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That’s why we call it PRESENT!

Islam does not give mandate to the state to impose religion on it's citizens. Someone help me here: According to hadith, during an azaan when no on came out of their homes for the salat, Hazrat Ali got mad and said "I wish I could burn their homes..." The Prophet (sws) stopped him from and told him that people are not forced to perform prayers. Again, I need someone to offer the correct hadith... I don't remember properly.

Hijab/naqaab/beard are much later stages as already mentioned above. Every Muslim here knows the basic right and wrong. According to Islam and Sharyat, no one can tell anyone to do anything unless that person does the act, already. Otherwise, it is bigotry. And bigotry is one of the biggest crime in the world. Like me telling you to read the Quraan....but I won't - since I don't. My mistake, yes, but I can't tell you that until I start to read the Quraan myself, first.

Think about the basics and then start from there as much as you can. Don't try to reach for the stars, at first you won't. As you become comfortable take the next step, if your heart desires. This is also what the Prophet (sws) has said. He (sws) said that imaan is like a seed you sow. You have to take care of it, water it, nurture it and protect it before it becomes a tree. If someone has a more complete/proper hadith, please post it. Thanks.

yes jannu,
i agree..cant reach for the stars and all...

but women are prioritized over many things in islam.

we should give it a start with this gender....wouldnt you want ur wife/daugter/sister to be protected from teh eyes of non-mehrams when they go out?


Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That's why we call it PRESENT!

I realize this is a sensitive topic, specially regarding women & Talibans & I’m clearly aware that @ least in this forum I’m in t/ minority, but sumhow my conscience duz not allow me to sit back & watch ppl praise thm for all atrocities committed by thm against t/ women. Like I said earlier “it’s easy to praise Talibans while sitting in t/ U.K. or t/ U.S.”

First of all I dont know where & why you got t/ idea that I’m opposed to an “all girls” schooL/ college!! I myself went to a segregated school & even in t/ U.S. all girls school & all boys schools are considered VERY GOOD schools (as they are usually private, altho in Pakistan that’s not t/ reason for segregation).

My point has however been missed here & that’s fine cuz anything less I did not expect!! & F.Y.I. www.rawa.org was just one of my sources!! unlike your assumption I do not rely on westrn media alone, infact aftr t/ fiasco in t/ ME, it’s quite rare! I do have Afghani freinds, so unlike your second assumption I get my sources FIRST HAND - NOT second hand!!
Anyway, I realize it’s a futile discussion .

My bsic point of view remains t/ same : Govt. should not impose on your (ofcourse meaning a woman’s) dressing!! Only parents sould & can enforce thr values on t/ kids.

Also, my earlier argument remains t/ same that poor pple in Pkaistan no mattr what,
“generally” follow basic Islamic principles including fasting etc. Sure thr are sum labrs for whom it’s hard & that can be true anywhere, but t/ majority duz follow.

Coming frm Pakistan & having relatives frm various backgrounds,I do have a clearer perspective on life back home - cuz for me it is my real home unlike most of my ABCD peers here!! My frnds aren’t t/ only source of info. I have been in U.S. only 6 yrs. Before that I was in Pakistan mingling w/ t/ ordinary ppl frm " darziiz" , " sabzii wallas" & “qalaii walas” etc.to t/ “elite upper classes” of our society & it was quite an education!!

X_Communist

you know what they say. impose your ideas first on your family and friends, then try and change the world.

i mean, i read your posts, and you say you're in favour of the government imposing the purdah on women. does everyone in your family practise purdah? what about your extended family? I doubt thats the case..

Funkydesi,

What atrocities are you talking about exactly?
You say you do not rely on western media, but your 'cry of atrocity', is synonymous with the message western media conveys.

Since when are the Afghani women being subject to atrocities under the rule of the Taliban? The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully committed to the social, cultural and economic development of women. The government has been able to protect the honor, life and property of Afghani women....contrary to conditons under the Rabbani regime, women can now be outside their houses safely without the fear of being kidnaped, raped or looted. According to organizations such as amnesty international, women in Afghanistan bore the brunt of the atrocities by the Rabbani regime and other armed factions,92-95. Irresponsible commanders and gunmen not only violated the honor of women by raping them but mutilated women's bodies and in many cases, cut their breasts etc. Similarly, common was murder, torture and execution of our people by the armed factions. Due to the intolerable atrocities, the Taliban movement emerged to deliver the defenseless Afghan people from the cruel hands of the warlords.

No doubt u have heard of all the rumours circulating about how life for women under the taliban is oppressive, injust,...etc,etc. Well here are the facts, the former regime that did not serve the country had employed women in a number of sectors without any real need. Some of them were used just for the sexual entertainment of the bureaucracy. Due to the ineffective and immoral institutions, they have temporarily been relieved of their duties.Note:**The government pays them their salaries regularly. **Keep in mind, the current government of afghanistan is the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, based on Islam and therefore in contrast with governments of the west will not permit the dishonour of women. But women whose work is really needed, are still working in the health, education and security sectors.

Then there are the rumours circulating about the education of females. In accordance with Islam, the I.E. of Afghanistan considers education equally obligatory for both men and women, that is a fact. However, as u obviously know, currently the country is in shambles, the economic structure has been destroyed, and of course the education facilities have been turned to rubble like much else in the country. I mean seriously how can people be sent to school if there is no school to go to? The present war situation imposed and fueled by foreign powers diverts from Afghanistan's already meager national resources that would be better allocated to opening more schools. Secondly, the Afghans do not trust the communist-style curriculum....so the gov't does not only need to compile a new curriculum that will answer the needs of their society, they also have to restore the trust of the common people in government-run education. Thirdly, the war has created a huge brain drain in all sectors including education...which obviously poses additional hurdles in the restoration of educational, economic, political and social institutions. As conditions in the country improve, so will, doubtlessly, job and education opportunities for women.

Hmmm and as a side note I don't think having Afghani friends adds anything to anyone's argument, what difference does it make really if people cannot support their arguments with solid facts or examples? Futile discussion indeed, if you consider rawa.org to be a reasonable, reliable, and not to mention balanced source.

[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
**but women are prioritized over many things in islam.

we should give it a start with this gender....wouldnt you want ur wife/daugter/sister to be protected from teh eyes of non-mehrams when they go out?
**
[/quote]

You are correct. As I see, there are stages in everything. If thought out logically, this step of the process of change is not in the beginning but around the middle to later part of the process. The ground has to be fertile for this type of thinking to sink in and then followed.

[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:

If Pakistan is legally called the "ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN" Islamic being the keyword,
[/quote]

I wonder where does the keyword disappear off to when Muslims visit Heera Mandi?
Sweetie there are other 'Mega Huge Big' Problems waiting to be solved

[quote]

shouldnt' we follow Islamic SHARIAH?
Following teh SHariah, females should be 'forced' to wear hijab/niqab/burqah to cover themselves
[/quote]

This statement amused me so much i laughed
You first say We Follow Islamic Shariah
then you state that females should be *forced*to do pardah

When an individual follows a religion they do it cause their hearts tells them to not because someone forces it on them
How can one force a religion onto someone and then expect them to follow it from their heart

Religion (any religion) lies within the heart of an individaul ....no matter how much something is forced onto someone it cannot change their beliefs

Its common knowledge that when something is forced onto someone the result is baghawat

[quote]

from the eyes of non-mehrams, instead of idealizing western clothes

(skirts,pants,tops,etc) and applying theirselves in PUBLIC!!!....
[/quote]

laughz
sweetie a handful of individuals dare to wear skirts and tops in pakistan cause their daddies are richie people and noone can touch em

An average women in pakistan wears shalwar kameez and duppatta with some wearing chaddars when they go out others opting the chaddar with just their duppattas

What More do you want!!!!
teach the men that other then the women in their family the rest of the women arent there for them to oogle at

No woman wants to apply herself in public

[quote]
Originally posted by Anchal:
** ... teach the men that other then the women in their family the rest of the women arent there for them to oogle at ...
**
[/quote]

One day during my last visit to Pakistan (in 1982), I passed through Jamia Cloth market. I was in a rickshaw. There were a lot of people around. We approached an intersection and I suddenly noticed that every man was looking in the same direction. I looked in that direction and, lo and behold, four women were crossing the road. I looked back and scanned the sides of the road. It was incredulous. The men looked like hungry dogs with their lustful eyes.

I have never forgotten that sight.

and that was just outside the market
got any idea wht happens inside to the women who shop their

they get pinched, felt, and have to listen to shitty comments whispered in their ears?

I would like to see the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to deal with this problem first

Some unaware soul is gonna come here and comment 'well the women should wear burqah in order to prevent such things happening to them'

yawnz
what makes you think these men will spare the burqah ones?
comment such as 'burqay main kia chupa rakha hay' are used
and moi is talking out of experience

When i visit my nani in abbotabad i wear a long chaddar when i go out
not because i believe that its going to make me more religious from any point of view or would make me more pious
I wear it because once i made a mistake of not wearing the chaddar and only my duppatta and the reaction i got was disgusting
men rubbing their body parts, with their dheet eyes staring at you ....its disgusting

The fact is that it doesnt matter if the girls is good looking or ugly
she is a women, a piece of meat nothing more in their eyes

So why not impose standard eductaion for these men?why not teach them to respect all women .....not the ones in the char diwari of their homes

[quote]
Originally posted by Anchal:
*So why not impose standard eductaion for these men?why not teach them to respect all women .....not the ones in the char diwari of their homes *
[/quote]

I doubt that education will help. But, on the other hand, it will help to lower the number of incidences. ?

If the state dictates what you have to do then do you think the average person will not try to bend the system? There will be conformance by majority, under duress, but, overall, there will be challanges to the system by larger number of individuals.

Can someone relay the Saudi experience? What is being proposed to take place in Pakistan is akin to Saudi policy.

Originally posted by nomaan:
i mean, i read your posts, and you say you're in favour of the government imposing the purdah on women. does everyone in your family practise purdah? what about your extended family? I doubt thats the case..
I dont want to sound like a goody goody but my family (extended included) practices this act of purdah...even teh 14 year olds.

Originally posted by GFQ:
Since when are the Afghani women being subject to atrocities under the rule of the Taliban? The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully committed to the social, cultural and economic development of women.
GO MODERATOR!!!...them paying the women who dont work anymore connects to teh word Mashallah!

Originally posted by Anchal
what makes you think these men will spare the burqah ones?So why not impose standard eductaion for these men?why not teach them to respect all women .....not the ones in the char diwari of their homes
Anchal, why try to teach the men when you can follow the religion correctly and be safe from their eyes? The men and their thoughts won't change, but atleast the women and try to change themselves and automatically they will notice a change in men. Last year, wehn i visited Pakistan, I tried the niqab/burqah and all. It was amazing the way it gave me so much confidence when i walked thru a swarm of public (men considerably), instead of fixing my dupatta every now and then. My pt. dear (baji, i suppose) is that the shariah are there for a reason, for our benefit.

"janu",
No,educating the avg. man will not help.
as far as saudi policies go, i like their way of punishment for stealing, and such acts. yes, if the water can't go over the rock, it will find its way around.....but u see,,,,lots of us pakistanis live in saudia...and there they follow the laws and their daughters/mothers/sisters all perform purdah....why cant they follow it in pakistan....it just seems like they will rebel because of teh knee-deep mud they are in.

btw, you really need to pay a visit to pakiland again...'82 seems a long time.....its even worse now..but one improvement i saw was that many (and by many, i mean MANY) women wore burqah's with niqabs...it felt good...its kinda like a common practice....

[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
...lots of us pakistanis live in saudia...and there they follow the laws and their daughters/mothers/sisters all perform purdah....
[/quote]

Could the threat of strict Saudi attitudes towards immigrants be a factor here?

The trip on '82 was a 2 wk. trip. I left Pakistan in '73... Still a Paki, my wife is U.K. born Paki, my U.S. born children also know they are Paki (well, I hope I don't loose the battle here!).

im glad ur not forgetting to water those roots.!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rotato.gif

i dont think burqah is one of the MAIN reasons why ppl are emmigrating the land…there a quite a few obvious ones like the paki kids not being able to have gov’t schools, not being able to obtain post secondary education..the families not being able to own personal businesses without a saudi national becoming a partner…thus, the list goes on…
i mean, its not like we are going to suddenly make pak a communist country (although i wouldnt mind

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

) we would be, in a way, following our title of ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN…


Yesterday is history,
Tommorow is a mystery,
Today is a gift,
That’s why we call it PRESENT!

[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:

Sweetie pardon my ignorance
but isnt religion supposed to be for both men and women equally
Women are expected to follow the religion but men arent?
The religion teaches men** to lower their gaze in the presence of namehram women**
Does a average Pakistani Male practice this ?

Shouldnt the government impose ‘Lower Your Gaze in the Presence of Women’ Law on its Male residents?

Dearie you can water a plant all you want, give it enough sunlight and keep it in the air…
the roots will remain dirty if you dont provide the right soil

Your above theory reminds me of a ‘Shutarmurgh’
the poor fella when senses trouble buries it head in the sand waiting for the trouble to pass instead of running away and trying to save itself

You know this is rather amusing
so you visit mamoo ka ghar for bout 2 months and you consider yourself an expert in wht goes around in pakistan?
I suggest go back to pakistan and live day to day with the average Pakistani women and experience what they experience and feel what they feel and then start suggesting what is right and what is wrong

I dont understand …
in order to gain confidence you needed a burqah?
umm so next time i go to give some test all i need is my burqah and that will provide me with the confidence ?
Self confidence comes from within not from clothes …
Hiding behind a burqah you are denying to confront the problem but rather being supressed by it

,

Umm that happens when you arent used to wearing a duppatta
you should have tried safety pins

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Look sweetie my point is that no religion can be forced onto an individual
people follow religion cause their mind and heart along with their soul wants to

Ps. Niqab is not mandatory in Islam

[This message has been edited by Anchal (edited November 12, 2000).]

Yeahhh... The men should be taught how to respect women through proper religious education.
Taali donoan haathoan sey bajti hai. If the men are willing to respect women, the women will automatically go for hijab as well.


Who says nothing is impossible? I've been doing nothing all my life!

Anchal I agree w/ u- 100% ob this! Arguing w/ thm is like banging your head against a wall. They most probably are pakka Jamaatis' who evn back home used to literally harrass us students- men & women included!

It used to irk me & my frnds evn more when they wud try to force their same over zealous fanatic views on evryone - all in t/ name of Islam! My husband & his frnds, who went to a diffrnt uni ib a diffrnt city had t/ same experiences & thyr just normal well balanced ppl meaning not too westrnized nor too narrowminded.

GFQ: I could say t/ same for your source of refernces that thyr extremely biased!! But hey I have bettr things to do. You wanna bury your head in t/ sand regarding WOMEN'S issues in our culutre & society & blame evrything on "if only women wud wear burqah/naqaab" thn that's your problm. You're not t/ first, nor will be t/ last to think like that!!