Why should Qadianis love Pakistan? Do they have an obligation to be patriotic the same way an average Muslim may feel towards Pakistan?
Should Christian view Pakistan a land of opportunity where they can peacefully and freely excercise their right to live equally?
What was that quote by Kennedy again, about not caring what your country does for you but rather what you can do for your country??? Do you think it applies to Qadianis or other minorities???
I don’t know if, on average, Qadianis or Ismailis are patriotic or not, but next time you meet an expatriate person from such a group and he/she expresses his/her unpatriotic thoughts, what would be your reaction?
Should Christian view Pakistan a land of opportunity where they can peacefully and freely excercise their right to live equally?
Do you think an average muslim Pakistani feels the same way about Pakistan? or atleast should feel the same way?
Anyways, minorities should have atleast some sort of allegiance for the country they reside in. They earn their living from the established economy of the country along with the utilization of benefits such as social services (if provided), driving on the roads and protection from foreign aggression (usually provided).
I think Pakistan fairs betters in terms of protection for minotrites than a number of countries and especially India. Except for the secretarian violence between shia and sunni, minorities in Pakistan have thrived, e.g. the memon community.
I remember last year's clashed against the Christians in India along witht he burning of the missionaries. I also remember the Babri masjid fall along with occasional hindu-muslim conflicts in India. I think violence against Hindus in Pakistan was minimal during those periods of conflicts and I don;t think any Temples ware attacked. Same examples can be given of the kurds in Iraq and msulims in Russia. I think Pakistanis, in general, are tolerant of minorites. Its just the fellow muslims we can't stand!
[This message has been edited by ghalib (edited May 17, 2000).]
Somehow Pakistanis can not tghink of Pakistan forgetting about India.
Now that issue has come up, better than India.. eh.. Pakistan always had 98% Muslim population, and giving right of voting to monorities comes as a shocker. Not that when there were joint electorate, Pakistanis were capable of voting minority as a choef minister of state (as maharashtrians could with antulay and his constituency does not even have 5% muslims, state does not even have 10% muslims)
We have sizable minorities, population of a billion, afew problems here and tgher could be there. You do not have minority, almost. 2% is hardly anything. Still you keep whining on them.
I have read the language pakis use about quadianis on religion forum. It is hardly distinguishable from the drivel of 'crooked hindu bania'.
What I find amusing is ability of Pakis to cheat themselves.
I think it is only natural that one feels attachment to one’s place of birth and place one grew up at. There are degrees of attachment, some feel a psychological and emotional attachment which is immutable in nature (e.g., NYA) while others may feel momentary feel for the land shaped by one’s own experience (particularly during the times of hardship).
Ghalib is right that Pakistan does provide a relatively secure environment for its “religious” minorities. I highlighted “religious” to make a point. My point is that Pakistan is made up of different minority groups (racially, ethnically) and we should view religious minorities in the same light. Just think of Qadyanis as you would of Baluchs or Sindhis.
Having said that, there is a lot that can be improved in Pakistan as it relates to religious minorities. A system such as the one in the USA will work wonders if given a chance. A system of separation of Religion from Governance and Politics. Whatever violence takes place in Pakistan is for the most part politically motivated with culprits taking a cover under Religion.
Personally, if anyone ever questioned my patriotism for my motherland, I will love it more.
Your patriotism towards India is quite abvious. I didn't say Pakistan was perfect, but given the history of sectarian violence within the country, it does has a commendable record for treatment of minorities. Atleast to me :)
Aray Roman beta achay bachay itna bhao nahi khatay , This topic is way too serious for a name like “ROMAN”
So be happy man & stop posting too serious …
Before I would even read other replies, could you please explain to me where did India come into all this?
Should the approach here be that 'oh, since there are counteries which are (supposedly) worst, we don't need to look at it critically'???
These questions are specific to the context of a general, overall picture of treatment of minorities in Pakistan, whatever is happening in the rest of the world is not revelevent.
And BTW, to your 'They earn their living from the established economy of the country along with the utilization of benefits such as social services (if provided), driving on the roads and protection from foreign aggression (usually provided)', tell me, do they have a choice to leave Pakistan if they could. No they don't so they are using roads but how about expatriate groups???
I think there needs to be a comparison of various setups in different countries so the deficiencies in one's own system can be isolated. If some initiatives are observed to yield better results for a country than the prevalent one's in another country, then these initiatives should be considered. Since India is our neighbor and its cultural and social background is somewhat congruent to ours, I opted to choose India. But you're right, this discussion doesn't need foreign comparisons and my intention was to enhance it a bit.
Now, about having a choice to stay in one country. I am sure if they have a choice to leave the country of stay and they're not satisfied with their lives, they most probably would. Now, if they don't a choice, thats even more of a reason to give your allegiance to the country. For its prosperity means your won prosperity.
About expats: They do have the choice to stay where they like. Abviuosly, they will choose a country which provides freedom along with security. In turn, they should have an allegiance towards the country they choose to live in, whether their own or foreign, for the similar reasons relating prosperity given above.
About a month ago I read an Article that Swedish Parliament has recently passed a resolution allowing Muslims to call for prayers (Azan) on the loudspeaker, but only for Friday prayers. It also said that, by allowing Azan to called on loudspeaker, the atheists will also have the same right to use loudspeakers and say that “God does not exist”. I didn’t pay much attention to the news, as that was not one of the most noteworthy things going on around the world. There were other more important events happening. Now I think, that that was probably the most important news of the day.
I think, and I strongly believe, that religion should have no place in citizenry and governance. All religions should be free to practice what they believe in, and it should not matter if there is a clash of beliefs. In an open society, the progress is only achieved when we build on the foundation of our multi-ethnic and multi-religious characteristic. Pakistan is a big country and there is room for everyone to flourish and contribute.
[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
**
I think, and I strongly believe, that religion should have no place in citizenry and governance. ........In an open society, the progress is only achieved when we build on the foundation of our multi-ethnic and multi-religious characteristic. Pakistan is a big country and there is room for everyone to flourish and contribute. **
[/quote]
Ahmadi - your right that we should build upon our multi-religions/cultures. Pakistanis of different religions/cultures have made great contributions to Pakistan and the Muslim struggle during independance. But if religion (ISLAM) didn't have any place in governance, we would probably have no pakistan to be patriotic to. We wouldnt have our separate muslim homeland which our grandparents struggled for. What would be the purpose of creating Pakistan in the first place if religion had no place?
[This message has been edited by STRONGMAN (edited May 17, 2000).]
Good point. However, I think the question does not require a simple answer. Muslims of pre-partition may have not viewed themselves Muslims (ie having a different orientation to exist in their own country) untill their counterpart (Hindus in this case) have viewed them Muslims, posing a threat to their quality of lives after liberation from British rule. In that sense, initiation may have come from Hindus, not Muslims.
In other words, if Muslims feared that they would be discriminated because of their religion after liberation then the idea of seperate country may have very well been initiated out of very feared descrimination, not by Muslims' claim of a religious prerogative to begin with.
Now you tell me, was their fear of descrimination strong enough or not.
I also remember the Babri masjid fall along with occasional hindu-muslim conflicts in India. I think violence against Hindus in Pakistan was minimal during those periods of conflicts and I don;t think any Temples ware attacked.<
Atleast one temple was razed to dust and atleast one hindu was burnt to death, both within two days of the Babri Masjid demolition. Several hindus adopted christian and muslim sounding names after they were harassed repeatedly in public places.
I believe, more than one temple.
And Pakistani newspapers even published a photograph of a minister leading the mob for vandalism (so some marks for press freedom). I dont think this modern ghazanavi was eve chargesheeted.
Queer Bhai,, One Mundar in Lahore (Rang Mahal, Shah-Aalmi) was demolished and religious artifacts disrespected, there were some Mundar destruction elsewhere also, mainly in rural Sindh (where majority of Pakistani Hindus live), and there were 2 deaths. Later on, the Mundar in Lahore was rebuilt (built by the same community that destroyed it).
These incidences (in the aftermath of Barbri Masjid) brought out the insecurity of many, Minorities or not, and although there is absolutely no excuse for such intolerance and hatred, but I believe that this served as an eye opener for those who are so stuck up on hatred for all others.
"One Mundar in Lahore (Rang Mahal, Shah-Aalmi) was demolished and religious artifacts disrespected, there were some Mundar destruction elsewhere also, mainly in rural Sindh"
NYA....Mandir and Masjid destruction according to me are not of that much importance. I could care less if all the Hindu temples in Pakistan (or for that matter even India) are destroyed !! When we talk about tolerance lets talk about ground realities. Ghalib has tried to compare Pakistan's treatment of its 2.6% minorities to India's treatment of its 20% minorities -- I think we should discuss this in a very honest way. When I used to work in India my Muslim co-worker left his job and started his own travel business by buying taxis on an interest-free loan from the government. He got the interest free loan because he was a member of the minority so he is entitled to special previledges by law. There are schemes for minorities and other groups in India. This according to me is the most important thing a government could do. Minorities being in the film industry or even being a President are according to me just token gestures. According to ghalib, more minorities are killed in India so we are a less tolerant country. I find this hilarious. How can a person from a theocratic state even talk about treatment of minorities without being embarrased ??!! I would not like to point out the number of high posts Muslims and other minorities hold in India -- there are too many of those !! What matters are concrete measures on the ground.
Most of you don't know much about India, but feel free to make comments about India. I still remember how someone had suggested once that cow slaughter and beef are banned in India -- what rubbish !! So unlike ghalib I am not comparing India to Pakistan (I think India should compare itself with the US)...because I have not been to Pakistan so I donot know what happens there. Maybe Pakistan has a number schemes for minorities....maybe there have been minority Supreme court judges or Chief Ministers or Commisioners of Police or Air Force and Army Chiefs in Pakistan. If these things happen in Pakistan then yes...we can begin to compare our countries and hopefully learn something from each other. and yes...we can discuss Babri masjid too !!
[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited May 17, 2000).]
