Shia'ism Intolerance

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Friendly sahib,

Naraz nahi hoa tha.. Believe me when I speak to my American colleagues or am in discussion with them, I get offended when they mention the word fundamentalist, I say it on their face that the media is biased, why was it that David Qurash(of Texas) wasn't referred as christian extremist/fundamentalist ... i can tell you that if you ask average muslim why there is a punishment of cutting fingers for stealing they would just say that because thats in Islam, whereas when one American mentioned that and said thats inhumane, I told them that qualification for that punishment is that Government must be able to provide clothing/food and shelter for every citizen before it can implement that strict punishment.. you see the logic.....
As for saudi scholars, I can't say anything since I haven't had chance to know about them. As for shias "kafir" issue, let me tell you a story when Iranian president Rafsanjani went to Mecca to meet Saudi officials. Due to some prior arrangement he wasn't able to attend Juma prayers under the Immaat of Kaba's Imam, at which that Imam said in his Khutba that Shias are such and such, upon learning that Rafsanjani cut his trip short, when asked why?, he asked Saudi Government that if shias are such and such according to your Kaba's Imam, then in that case why don't you guys declare us "Kafirs" and be done with the whole issue of bickering. The outcome of that incident was that that particular Imam was dismissed from his post of Kaba's Imam.

You might wanna ask the scholars in your area if they would write a fatwa (by their authority) of declaring Shias "Kafir". I would be curious to find out....

Najim sahib,

I am glad to hear of your opinion, i.e., of sacrificing minor differences to fight against major threats to muslims rather than labeling each other "Kafirs" etc etc.

22

Hi

Imranz Sahab:
Yaar i am not sure about which imam u r talking about, Sheikh Shuraim and Shiakh Sudais are the imams of the Kaaba. (n r still there) U know u cannot always believe, may be rumors, khair.

U know the problem is that kuch aisay aqaid hotay hain jo key ghalat hotay hain. A simple example, Qabar per ja ker duaeen mangna ya phir un ko waseela banana, thats shirk. (as said and proved by scholars here) but its going on in Pakistan, Shias and plus sunnis are doing this. But from islamic point of view its wrong. Another example, yeh jo kunday hotay hain, jab halwa purian banatay hain, this is also not in islam, its bid'aat, (bid'aat is like what is not done by Mohammed pbuh or his sahaba and we follow it as some religious thing, there is sakht waee'd for it by Prophet pbuh).

Islam is the religion of faith, if u r faith is not right then there is danger. So i think what ever we do should be in line with Quran and Sunnah. Humain bas woh kerna chahiay jo Mohammed SAW ney kia ya phir aap key sahaba ney kia.

As far as ignoring small things (as said by Najim), i have already mentioned an example that Hazrat Abu Bakr had fought a jihad with the munkareen of Zakat. So its not that choti choti baat per conflict. Our aim should be to learn what is right and to save our brothers from wrong if they are doing.

What i have seen in PAkistan is that bas jee jo moulvi sahab ney keh dia woh pathhar per lakir, Allah key banday tum Quran main daikho kia likha hay if cannot read or understand Quran then read the tranlsation of Sahih Bukhari (Mera khial hay sahih bukhari main her subject per hadith hay). So they think every body else is wrong only they r right. thats lack of knowledge, There should be meetings of the imams of different sects, they should meet and correct their sect according to Quran and Sunnah.

In middle east (arab countries) there r no sects like these, and if u tell a person an authentic hadith he will believe and not say that meray maulvi sahab ney to yeh kaha hay, and he should believe it.

23

Friendly sahib,

My motto is also to follow Quran & Prophet. If I can justify my actions according to either one of the above, I don't need to worry about anything..... As for molvis and mullahs, see you have to understand that literacy rate in pakistan is very low. So, people think these molvis and mullahs know it all. I don't believe in anything until its proven in accordance to Quran & Prophet and that it comes logical. I don't believe in blind faith. Just because my parents/forefathers are following something isn't the reason why I will be following it as well. I think these religious leaders should have secular studies as well to understand the philosophy/logic and science to be able to understand things better.

24

Imran Sahab :

I agree with u on all but not on seeking logic / philosophy / science on islamic teachings, bhai that when take off all the sawab in it.

In hadith it say enter the mosque with your right foot in first. What logic do u see here? But we have to do b'cos Allah says that and our Prophet pbuh says that.

So its not good to follow Islam keeping logic / science in your mind, sab sawab to phir zayah ho jaay ga, and one more thing agar kisi cheez main logic nahin ho ge to kia aap woh kaam nahin keraingaay ??? of course aap karaingaay, haay na ??

25

Friendly ji,

I guess we differ on that point. You see, if some learned person told you that do this or that, you will follow blindly on the bases that its coming from a learned guy. But, as far as I am concerned, if it doesn't make sense to me, I would question its reasoning. According to my thinking, there isn't one thing in Islam that is without any reasoning. Savab ki baat aur hai. I don't necessarily do religious tasks just to earn savab. Main goal should be to know the validity/reasoning of what you are following, and if your learned Alim can't justify the act, that means he is not capable of convincing an average person to do certain thing. I agree with you that if Prophet said it and its validated than it should be done,But your Alim should be able to give you the logical reasoning behind it. As I think that the Prophet I believe in NEVER did anything that didn't serve any purpose. As always, everyone has to right to form their own thinking/logic.

[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited 10-28-98).]

26

"I agree with you that if Prophet said it and its validated than it should be done"

Aray Imran bhai main bhi to yehe keh raha hoon, that if something is said by Prophet pbuh then it should be followed. Thats it!!.

But i do disagree with u for seeking the logic. Now tell me the logic in the following things:

5 times prayer in a day (lets say its good for health but y do u read the surahs n all duas)

Roza (Ok, khana peena mana hay but why not have sex with u'r wife).

Hajj or Umrah (Do u see n e logic in that, wasting a lot of money and a risk of life, that would not seem logical, isn't it)

Why to believe in Shaitan (Have u ever seen him??? its us that we do everything good or bad, isn't it??)

Life after death (Does that seems logical that we can be set alive from mud and sand).

Hazrat Ibrahim slaughtering his son, just on the basis of a dream (Does that seems logical??).

Meray bhai is tarah ki bohot cheezain aur bhi hain, so, u cannot find logic in all of them but since it is proved that Mohammed pbuh have done that aur said that, we do it, isn't it.

Islam is obedience, u have to follow what Allah SWT and his messanger pbuh says not to seek logic / thinking in it.

Well i do agree with u that kisi scholar per blindly faith nahin hona chahiaay, if u r uncertain u should refer the hadith by u'r self. OR in any case, if not satisfied with scholar, its very much allowed to do research and find the ruling of Quran or Mohammed pbuh.

Making waddo as said by Mohammed pbuh i.e. three times washing hand .... (Does that seem logical, i mean why not washing 4 or 5 times)

Why only 2 rakats in Juma prayer y not 4 or just 1.

27

Friendly ji,

We agree on many things and differ on one topic.. I say follow logic, you say logic isn't in all the islamic tasks we do.... I still stand on my point about logic, Learned people have even given logic for why you have two Eyes, wetness in your Eyes, Wax in your Ear, why such number of fingers etc etc. So if they can have the explaination why is the human body as how it is, do you think there isn't any logic for Shaitan, Namaz, Sex in Roza, Hajj, life after death. The explaination of all these would mean a forum just by itself. There is one conclusion of our discussion, that is,

You belief in Allah & Prophet and do the required actions without thinking about or being curious for things,

Whereas, I,
Believe that for any instructions that came from Allah via Quran/Prophet have perfect reasoning behind them as I don't believe in a God whose instructions are without any reasons/justifications. He is the highest Hakim (in literal sense, of Hikmat/logic), and you expect that there won't be any logic in His instructions, I don't carry belief as such. My Allah is the one who is logical/posses all knowledge. Not someone who is a dictator and just say things to have it His way....

28

Assalam-u-Alaicum

We meet agian. I think there is logic behind
every order of Allah(SWT) and Saying of
Rasul-ul-Lah (SAW), but we do not obey
Allah(SWT) and follow our Prophet(SAW)
because it make sense to us. Rather we
believe and obey Allah(SWT), and follow our
Prophet(SAW) because Allah(SWT) says so.
Meaning of word 'Islam' is to submit, and we
submit ourselves to Allah ( the Allmighty).
It is good to find out logic behind the
orders of Allah(SWT).
First hadith of Bukhari is , meaning,
"Actions are dependent on
intentions".Meaning Allah will reward you on
your intension. So if sometimes we fail to
find any logic in an order of Allah(SWT), or
sunnah of Rasul-ul-lah(SAW), only logic
would be that Allah(SWT) says so, or
Prophet(SAW) have done so. It is enough
reasoning for us to follow.

29

Yes, in deed we met, again. I think you have slight different perception than of Friendly, but, janab, I stand still on my point about logic. I agree that in principal, that If I have believe in Allah for everything (as I mentioned in my previous posts how I believe in Him) than yes I will do everything as asked by Him. But, I can't take a statement that we just do tasks without any justifications even in Prophet's time, sahabas use to ask why such and such. If you think those sahabas who didn't posses the knowledge had enough sense to ask the reasoning of stuff, why can't we ask to quench the curiousity thrist we carry in our minds. Afterall, Allah is the one who had given us minds to think and explore.. right????

30

You are right that human has curosity.
Allah(SWT) has put this quality in us. we
are talking about two different things. To
ask because of curosity is one, and to
believe in somthing if it makes logic is
something else. As Prophet Ibraheem (PBUH)
ask Allah(SWT) to show him, out of his
curosity, to explain him how He(Allah) will
raise us after we die. Here Allah(SWT) asked
him don't you believe, he replied I believe
it, I want to see it to satisfy myself. then
Allah(SWT) asked him to bring four
birds........., as you know whole story. My
point here is seek reasoning in Islam for
satsfation, while we believe it is OK. But
our sole intention to worship Allah is to
please Allah and Allah only.

Other thing I need to know what makes you
think that my perception is not friendly?

31

Abrar sahib,

Let me clarify, when I meant friendly's, I didn't mean that your post/perception is not friendly, I meant that your idealogy slightly differs from the Friendly ghost sahib. As for logic, yes I understand your point. But people here were arguing that one should not seek logic in Islamic tasks/beliefs. That is not acceptable by me. As I don't belief in illogical God/Prophet. Plus, if you have to explain your beliefs to non believer you can't just say that Allah said so, you have to give reasoning/logic to prove your point. Otherwise, they would say that this religion is not based on any sense other than dictatorship.