[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
which govt has been able to contain the sectarian violence, since it started?
just wanted to know for my own information. gracias
[/QUOTE]
None.
But which govts have actually made deals with the people who do the violence and helped them? Not Sharif not BB but Zia and Musharraf.
Again and again we come to this point Fraudz. The SSP types get emboldened when Musharraf makes deals with their leader and uses his agencies to in fact help them.
If Musharraf were simply not to take action that is one thing, but when he helps out the people who promote sectarian hatred while saying exactly the opposite, it is galling.
Khilaari. I disagree. Musharraf has been able to severely dent LJ.. Riaz Basra, Akram Lahori.. etc.. high ranking leaders have been eliminated.
Yes it remains poisonous, but consider world politics these days. These guys are on a roll. They've begun to associate themselves with an image on a global scale. Those with limited resources must also wish to partake in the glory of their brethren in AQ, and while real glory must still evade them, atleast they can have glory-lite by killing shias, until I guess they accumulate enough goodwill upstairs that fate decrees they get some real action.
Eliminating the trigger pullers is useless. There are many, many of them and many come out every day. The proof is in the recent attacks that the LJ is alive and thriving.
What about those who give the orders?
Who allowed Azam Tariq to become MNA despite having a dozen murder cases on his name?
Who is still allowing SSP to run for elections in Jhang?
Who has still not imprisoned the new leaders of the renamed SSP?
Who has used his intelligence agencies to do SSP's work for them?
Eliminating the trigger pullers is useless. There are many, many of them and many come out every day. The proof is in the recent attacks that the LJ is alive and thriving.
What about those who give the orders?
Who allowed Azam Tariq to become MNA despite having a dozen murder cases on his name?
Who is still allowing SSP to run for elections in Jhang?
Who has still not imprisoned the new leaders of the renamed SSP?
Who has used his intelligence agencies to do SSP's work for them?
[/QUOTE]
Did you read my link above in today’s Dawn? It clearly says that the Karachi killer and his gang were SSP, not LJ.
There is absolutely no difference between the two anyways. When convenient, they change names.
Anyway, read the following report:
“Agencies” basically tried to make Shia faith into a non-faith. What sort of a government uses its intelligence agencies to make a religious leader negotiate with terrorists?
I have the actual report in “The News” paper scanned. I don’t know how to upload it here. They removed the real story online. In the paper report, the “agencies” said that Allama Naqvi and other Shia leaders must agree to many SSP demands including removal of the Declaration of the Wilayat of Imam Ali in their Azaan, and all Shias mut quit doing azadari, adhan, majalis, etc. so that SSP will have no reason to kill Shias.
Whose side are they on? If the FBI suddenly arrested Islamic leaders and said we will leave American Muslims alone only if you all agree to stop reciting the Kalima would you find that acceptable?
Naqvi offered three conditions for release
By our correspondent
LAHORE: **The government agencies have offered the detained leader of defunct Islami Tehrik Pakistan (ITP) Allama Sajid Naqvi to fulfil three conditions for his release and translate the dream of national reconciliation into a reality, sources told The News.
The offer was made to Allama Naqvi as different Shia groups have stepped up efforts to secure his release by negotiating with the government at different levels, sources added.
However, it appears difficult that he will accept these conditions as some of them are about the basic rituals and practices of Shia faith in the country and were already rejected several times in the past during various negotiations.
The agencies entrusted with the task of arresting sectarian strife have asked Allama Sajid Naqvi to hold dialogue with the central leader of arch rivals MIP/SSP (presently Maulana Mohammad Ahmad Ludhianvi) to sort out things between the two rival sectarian organisations that have been engaged in a sectarian war on intellectual and religious levels which caused a lot of bloodshed during the last two decades.**
Apart from that he has been asked to support the Shariat Bill presented in the National Assembly by the assassinated leader of rival MIP Maulana Azam Tariq since the bill also seeks to stop blasphemy of Sahaba (RA) and Ahle Bait.
Third condition is that both sides should agree to declare amnesty for all the murder accused of sectarian killings and release of those jailed under tit-for-tat cases in order to end the hatred.
The agencies have warned Allama Naqvi that since all the old cases against him had been reopened in the wake of the murder of Maulana Azam Tariq, his release would otherwise be an uphill task. However, Allama Naqvi has reportedly refused to sit with Maulana Ludhianvi and negotiate a peace agreement.
IMO Shias of Pakistan should never compromise on their faith just to earn a basic right, i.e. safety. They are a sizeable minority (15%) and i think its time for them to get up and take security issues in their own hands. I mean if govt. cant ensure it then u got no choice but to stand up for yrself and push these radacal's a**es where it belongs.
The prospect of a sectarian civil war is alarmist IMHO.
If only the vast silent majority of tolerant and decent Pakistanis rise up and feel more outraged by the government's inaction against Shia killers than its pettiness against political opponents, then Pakistan would be a better place.
If all the majority do is to issue useless statements of condemnation and melt away into "normal" life, things will explode someday soon.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Nussairee: *
IMO Shias of Pakistan should never compromise on their faith just to earn a basic right, i.e. safety. They are a sizeable minority (15%) and i think its time for them to get up and take security issues in their own hands. I mean if govt. cant ensure it then u got no choice but to stand up for yrself and push these radacal's a*es where it belongs.
[/QUOTE]
, what is wrong in asking ppl to tone down their cursings? that is not part of religion, you can praise any one, but dont curse ppl...that is not too much to ask...
But which govts have actually made deals with the people who do the violence and helped them? Not Sharif not BB but Zia and Musharraf.
Again and again we come to this point Fraudz. The SSP types get emboldened when Musharraf makes deals with their leader and uses his agencies to in fact help them.
If Musharraf were simply not to take action that is one thing, but when he helps out the people who promote sectarian hatred while saying exactly the opposite, it is galling.
Comprende?
[/QUOTE]
yeah, TeJ ppl in the govt is a lil annoying too.
for a an average person it does not matter what the situation is as long as he is being affected, if my kid was killed in such an attack, whether due to govt's closing its eyes to these idiots or being completely inept is not goignt o matter, but what will really matter is that the kid died.
I also dont recall any of the previous governments outlawing the groups, they could have but they did not. of all the ppl kiulled by all of these moronic groups combined, under whose rule was the most carnage seen..rank em..and do it on an average of how many ppl killed per day each year due to such riots.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Introduce a law to stop blasphemy of Sahaba (RA) and Ahle Bait.
Comment:
Now what's wrong with that. This will lead to peace.
[/QUOTE]
Do you really think so? i seriously doubt it. If anyone is demented enough to kill innocent people, are they really gonna stop at that? Its more likely that they'll find other measly excuses, like matam or shrines etc. to justify thier actions, until all shias have either converted or left the country.
You know, you're way underestimating the hatred here, but your sympathy with the killers is understandable. For you, basreh type thugs can do no wrong, eh?
IMO the root cause is in the wahabi madressahs, not in the 'victims'. They should be demolished asap along with the mullahs inside them. Another whole generation is being screwed and i'm witnessing it first hand. The Gov. seems to be lacking the will to do anything apart from banning organisations..
Also please note, TJP is not a militant brand, despite what some think here. SMP is and they've more or less disbanded and are useless at present. They only broke off because TJP chose to take the political route rather than the militant.
However, SMP was a 'reaction' to SSP, as the government had given them a free reign, leaving shias feeling the only way to protect themselves now was to form a counter militant group. Infact, I wouldnt be too surprised if another militant group was to arise around right now, for the very same reasons.
Karachi mosque bombing: Imam was Lashkar’s front man using cop
Cleric, the same age as the cop, had been ‘very friendly’ with him
Literature found in cleric’s house included ‘a guide for Jihadis’
By Hasan Mansoor and Intikhab Ali
KARACHI: Investigators probing the devastating suicide bombing attack on a Shia mosque in Karachi on May 7 have confirmed the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a Sunni Deobandi terrorist group, was “directly involved in the attack.”
The literature and many clues found from the house of the absconding pesh imam of a Lyari mosque show the attack, which killed 20 people and injured more than 100, “was masterminded by the Lashkar and the man in front was Murtaza, who was pesh imam of the mosque,” a senior investigator told Daily Times.
The records of Baghdadi police station relating to the bomber, Akbar Niazi, have been seized and the pesh imam of the mosque of Lyari’s Niazi Chowk area is also in custody, an investigator said. The pesh imam was “very friendly with Akbar,” he added. Police are reported to have found jihadi literature, including “A Guide for Jihadis,” and many other important clues from the house of the pesh imam, who is 24, the same age as Niazi.
Do you really think so? i seriously doubt it. If anyone is demented enough to kill innocent people, are they really gonna stop at that? Its more likely that they'll find other measly excuses, like matam or shrines etc. to justify thier actions, until all shias have either converted or left the country.
You know, you're way underestimating the hatred here, but your sympathy with the killers is understandable. For you, basreh type thugs can do no wrong, eh?
IMO the root cause is in the wahabi madressahs, not in the 'victims'. They should be demolished asap along with the mullahs inside them. Another whole generation is being screwed and i'm witnessing it first hand. The Gov. seems to be lacking the will to do anything apart from banning organisations..
Also please note, TJP is not a militant brand, despite what some think here. SMP is and they've more or less disbanded and are useless at present. They only broke off because TJP chose to take the political route rather than the militant.
However, SMP was a 'reaction' to SSP, as the government had given them a free reign, leaving shias feeling the only way to protect themselves now was to form a counter militant group. Infact, I wouldnt be too surprised if another militant group was to arise around right now, for the very same reasons.
[/QUOTE]
You know, you're way underestimating the hatred here, but your sympathy with the killers is understandable. For you, basreh type thugs can do no wrong, eh?
Comment:
Excuse me. So you believe I am sympathiser. But why.
I just gave a solution. Nobody should print or give secterian
sermons. Total ban on printing and saying inflammatory material.
Like books, sermons and tapes. Even in private gatherings ,
cursing should not be allowed.So what's wrong with this idea.
Jiss Tarha Rasool(SAW) ko kuch khene ka LAW allow nahe karta.
The same should go with Sahabaa(RA) and Ahl e Bait(RA).
And plz yeh Mazloom banee ka drama abb leave kardooo.
Nobody is buying It anymore.
And yes all hate spreading "places" should be closed.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Comment:
Excuse me. So you believe I am sympathiser. But why.
I just gave a solution. Nobody should print or give secterian
sermons. Total ban on printing and saying inflammatory material.
Like books, sermons and tapes. Even in private gatherings ,
cursing should not be allowed.So what's wrong with this idea.
Jiss Tarha Rasool(SAW) ko kuch khene ka LAW allow nahe karta.
The same should go with Sahabaa(RA) and Ahl e Bait(RA).
And plz yeh Mazloom banee ka drama abb leave kardooo.
Nobody is buying It anymore.
And yes all hate spreading "places" should be closed.
[/QUOTE]
Then why don't you start with yourself and stop the hatred campiagn against shias? Stop distributing cassettes and posters kalling for the death of shia kafirs. How's that for a start?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Then why don't you start with yourself and stop the hatred campiagn against shias? Stop distributing cassettes and posters kalling for the death of shia kafirs. How's that for a start?
[/QUOTE]
Imdad Jee
Me ne kub distribute keye. I just presented a solution.
I think you ppl will never leave a 1300 yr old practice of cursing.
You know what. SSP is jahil but you ppl are jahils too.
you deserve each other. Both the parties have created so much
mess in Pakistan. Enjoy each others company.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Excuse me. So you believe I am sympathiser. But why.
I just gave a solution.
[/QUOTE]
your solution that i quoted earlier is warped. It wont root out the mind set that go on killing sprees to make themselves feel good.
[QUOTE]
Nobody should print or give secterian
sermons. Total ban on printing and saying inflammatory material.
Like books, sermons and tapes. Even in private gatherings ,
cursing should not be allowed.
[/QUOTE]
I agree its a more practical solution. so how come we're still visiting sites like kr hcy for our resources?
[QUOTE]
And plz yeh Mazloom banee ka drama abb leave kardooo.
Nobody is buying It anymore.
[/QUOTE]
I'll let that one go, cause obviously, youve never been on the recieving end, so you wouldn't understand what its like. Mazloomiat is our middle name, from the ahlul bait (as) time till today.