Shayer Fehmi

[rkopra]

After a brief discussion with Amal and after inspiration from him I am opening this new thread, “Shayer Fehmi”. khyaal hai k yahaan “asaateza ke zariye, shay ki bandish, alfaaz ki munasbit, tasbeeh, istraaray, takreer aur digar pehluon par log guftagu karnay aayen gay aur bawaqt-e-fursat-o-faraaGhat maiN is silsilay ko jaari rakhen gay, aur yaaraan-e-bazm main bhi hissa lenge aur aage baRhaengay.”

Most of the appreciation of Urdu poetry that I see at this forum is just one word compliments or the use of various smilies. I believe the appreciation of great poetic works extends far beyond that. Poetry reflects our inner thoughts and the culture we live in. The projection of our emotional thoughts on the world tell what we are - be it love, anger, nature, dejection, patriotism, religion, faith or whatever. I believe the highest form of expression is poetry, in any language and we should take it to elevated levels not by only copying and pasting the poems of others or trying to compose our own poems to be recognised but to appreciate poetry as well. Just to read a poem and feel content is also appreciated, but I am looking far beyond it in discussions about poetry amongst various contributors here

I hope I make my point clear. In doing so this morning I raised some valid questions about Urdu poetry to which Amal made a kind comment to a poem I composed borrowing partial phrases from the poems posted today at this site. To open this thread, I would like to post that here and would welcome your comments in this new thread. From time to time I will be posting some well known verses of great poets here and would request you to explain to me poetically.

Notes:

1. The lines in the parenthesis are paraphrased from a writing of Danish elsewhere.
2. Amal and Nikami Jano, without your further support to this thread and your contributions here, I believe, this thread will go nowhere.
3. I am serious about the appreciation of beauty in Urdu poetry, and I hope others will join me in this effort.
4. Thanks to Amal and Nikami Jano for their patience to to keep my membership active in this forum.

---

So here’s the poem that I posted earlier:
lakin mohabbat main zulm ka kya kaam thaa

koi wada to tum wafa kar detay
dast-e-wafa main pyass ka alam kum thaa

har baat ki ijazat tum na detay
lakin hamara pyaar kabhi kum na thaa

suraag bhi na milay, tum kahan chalay
tumaray bina hamara jeena araam na thaa

vo ghari aaj tak suljha raha hoon
kyon tum ko itana zalim hona thaa

zalim thay aur zulum ki aadat bhi thee tum ko
lakin mohabbat main zulm ka kya kaam thaa

tum aks ban kar chasm-e-tar main rehtay thay
tum chalay jaao gay aisa kabhi socha na thaa

mohabbat maar deti hai sab log kehtay hain
zida rayey gi mohabbat hamari ye socha thaa

ab to khwaabon main bhi teri yaad aati hai
tumaray bina is duniya main mera kuch na thaa

Note: Many phrases of this composition in part come from the titles of poems posted today at this site. I claim no authorship to them and the credit must go
to the great poets of Urdu love poetry. I’d, however, like to know what do you honestly think of the above composition. Does it mean anything to you? Is it how Urdu love poetry is written? Does it make Urdu poetry?

Any comments, good or bad are welcome. But please keep your comments to the composition only. Lack of comments will perhaps show lack of interest in poetry. But that would be surprising!

Amal, if you believe we must only post poems here and not discuss them, in that case please delete this thread entirely. I am here for some discussion to learn about Urdu poetry. In all seriousness. No provocations etc. Everything friendly.

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

2
qatra dariya me jo mil jaye, dariya ho jaaye

qatra dariya me jo mil jaye, dariya ho jaaye
kaam accha hai wo jisska M-aal accha hai
humko maalum hai jannat ki haqueeqat lekin
dil ko khush rakhne ke liye gaalib ye khayal accha hai.

• Ghalib

Could anyone tell me what Ghalib meant by "humko maalum hai jannat ki haqueeqat lekin."

Did he not believe in the descrpition of heaven as portrayed in Quran or in other Islamic religious texts? If he did, then why he's saying he knows it as everyone else would know in that case. What is he implying here? Does he mean that the soul of man finally meets with God - the grand soul of all, and that's it? The metaphor here is of a raindrop meeting a river and becoming a river. Is Ghalib implying there are no gardens and fountains in heaven, and there are no *paris or virgins *there? I would not like to extend it too far lest it falls out of the range of a poetic discussion.

Note: Amal, I am not trying to discuss any religion here. Only poetry, and that of Ghalib. I would appreciate that you make a comment and explain this stanza to me, in case no one else dares to. Thanks.

PS: If you and NikamiJano do not like this thread, you are free to delete it. And would you kindly tell me if the poem #1 in this thread sounds like an Urdu love poem to you and what are your thoughts on it. Is it OK to borrow a clause, a phrase here and there and put it together in new love poem that has one's own creativity and language as well, and to admit some clauses/phrases are not one's own? Or is it not permitted in Urdu poetry or in this forum? In that case I'd refrain from doing so. Thanks again.

[Amal]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

Is it OK to borrow a clause, a phrase here and there and put it together in new love poem that has one's own creativity and language as well, and to admit some clauses/phrases are not one's own? Or is it not permitted in Urdu poetry or in this forum? In that case I'd refrain from doing so. Thanks again.

If you pick one line from one poem and another line from another poem, I do not think that you would also be able to Copy&Paste the ideas also that were part, or rather, the reason behind those two different lines from two different poems. Putting all together will only result in a potpourri of confused emotions and expressions.

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

If you pick one line from one poem and another line from another poem, I do not think that you would also be able to Copy&Paste the ideas also that were part, or rather, the reason behind those two different lines from two different poems. Putting all together will only result in a potpourri of confused emotions and expressions.

Thanks. In that case, would you please make a comment on poem #1 here as I requested above - including confused emotions, loosing a line of thought, making no sense. Does #1 make no sense? How is it confusing? Does each verse in standard Urdu Ghazal not tell a different thing related to the topic? How is #1 different in that respect?

PS: I would like your thoughts in poem #2 as well. Thanks to initiate a discussion. I hope NikamiJano and others will join us later. Is it too much I am asking of you?

[Amal]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

I hope NikamiJano and others will join us later. Is it too much I am asking of you?

I am not sure about others. But in that ^ case, may be yes :)

[Amal]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

rkopra, I guess I won't be able to offer any comment on a piece that has been assembled from different sources. Please accept my apology. But I may, according to my little knowldege and humble understanding, be able to share with you my notes if you discuss some original poem with me :)

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

rkopra, I guess I won't be able to offer any comment on a piece that has been assembled from different sources. Please accept my apology. But I may, according to my little knowldege and humble understanding, be able to share with you my notes if you discuss some original poem with me :)

Amal, thanks for your openness. Now about your comments on an original poem by Ghalib I posted as #2 in this thread, and asked few questions.

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

3
A verse by Ghalib

tum mere pas hote ho goya
jab koi dusra nahin hota

-Ghalib

Does this verse by Ghalib have multiple interpretations? What is your interpretation? Any taker?

Would you, Amal and NikamiJano, comment on the verse?

[Dushwari]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

there is a saying that really makes a lot of sense in religious context for a monotheistic person . the saying goes, "a good friend enters your life, when everyone else leaves it."

if you extend this to the concept of the invisible but sure presence of Almighty then Galib hopefully had God in his heart when he said these poetic lines.

Dushwari

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

there is a saying that really makes a lot of sense in religious context for a monotheistic person . the saying goes, "a good friend enters your life, when everyone else leaves it."

if you extend this to the concept of the invisible but sure presence of Almighty then Galib hopefully had God in his heart when he said these poetic lines.

Dushwari

Is Ghalib really referring to God in the following verse?
tum mere pas hote ho goya
jab koi dusra nahin hota

goya=as if?

[AQ]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

Great thread rkopra

I concur many things that you have said. Ironically, I share the same sentiments in this regard. Do not be surprised! I only agree or disagree with the statments not the persons here in these forums

@rkopra

After a brief discussion with Amal and after inspiration from him I am opening this new thread, “Shayer Fehmi”. khyaal hai k yahaan “asaateza ke zariye, shay ki bandish, alfaaz ki munasbit, tasbeeh, istraaray, takreer aur digar pehluon par log guftagu karnay aayen gay aur bawaqt-e-fursat-o-faraaGhat maiN is silsilay ko jaari rakhen gay, aur yaaraan-e-bazm main bhi hissa lenge aur aage baRhaengay.”

I do not consider my self among the titles you have counted but I will try anyway…

@rkopra

Most of the appreciation of Urdu poetry that I see at this forum is just one word compliments or the use of various smilies. I believe the appreciation of great poetic works extends far beyond that. Poetry reflects our inner thoughts and the culture we live in. The projection of our emotional thoughts on the world tell what we are - be it love, anger, nature, dejection, patriotism, religion, faith or whatever. I believe the highest form of expression is poetry, in any language and we should take it to elevated levels not by only copying and pasting the poems of others or trying to compose our own poems to be recognised but to appreciate poetry as well. Just to read a poem and feel content is also appreciated, but I am looking far beyond it in discussions about poetry amongst various contributors here

I agree… I have said a smiliar thing 4 years back in this very forum.. The kind of responses I’d received was very encouraging but no one changed their way:D

I will try to quote what I had said back in 2003 with some corrections in sentence structures:

@Anwaar Qureshi

Poetry: What is it? a few words arranged differently than normal way of prose to give readers a message with rythm. Many a times, good poetry has less words but a strong effects on its readers YET it is the diction that always counts the most!

What makes us feel and think that certain poetry is relatively beautiful? What is there to motivate us in a classical verses?

The answer is simple! We all interpret it according to our own knowledge and experience in life. We all relate the wordings in poetry to our very own lives. There is self-explanatory simple, nonetheless very nicely strong poetry, too; Yet there is always many of us who may understand and get a lesson from it very differently than others.

I remember one of my composition classes in my undergraduate years, when my teacher said:

• Any piece of writing can be explained however you want to explain as you understand it as long as you can justify it with valid proofs and strong reasonings, no matter if the writer’s own point of view is totally opposite than yours and no matter if writer had different things in mind when it was written!
  What does happen every time here in this poetry section? Don’t we just witness some thing that has become more of a ritual than formality of this place making it’s nature absolutely monotonic with no creativity left?

Whenever some one posts some thing, almost 100% of the time all the replies are nothing but on the very same pattern of:

“Bahut khoob:k:, zabar10, wah wah, thanks for sharing:), nice” etc . etc.

Is not it the fact that everyone knows that every piece of poetry is always nice and zabar10?

Why can’t we do some thing more constructive and Creative?

Why not try to explain the poetry as we understand it? WHy can’t we share it’s relativity with our own lives’ experience? and later, Why not discuss the explanations in details where we may have problem understanding the very explanations or where we disagree with any specific interpretation of the shared poetry?

I don’t know but if authorities can do, they may have an oppertunity to start ‘Best Critic of the Month’ title or a thread dedicated to it…

Wont it help in getting many aspects and point of views on the same poetry which we may have undertood differently than others but by sharing isn’t it true that our understandings on things can become multi-dimensional?

How many of you agree? and how many don’t:)?

so you see I have raised these points years back in this forum. Keep in mind, Amal and NikamiJano were not the moderators.

@rkopra

I hope I make my point clear.

you did! I initially had thought to not come in this thread but after reading the contents, I think it would have been a selfish act not to respond.

@rkopra

…]

---

So here’s the poem that I posted earlier:
lakin mohabbat main zulm ka kya kaam thaa

koi wada to tum wafa kar detay
dast-e-wafa main pyass ka alam kum thaa

har baat ki ijazat tum na detay
lakin hamara pyaar kabhi kum na thaa

suraag bhi na milay, tum kahan chalay
tumaray bina hamara jeena araam na thaa

vo ghari aaj tak suljha raha hoon
kyon tum ko itana zalim hona thaa

zalim thay aur zulum ki aadat bhi thee tum ko
lakin mohabbat main zulm ka kya kaam thaa

tum aks ban kar chasm-e-tar main rehtay thay
tum chalay jaao gay aisa kabhi socha na thaa

mohabbat maar deti hai sab log kehtay hain
zida rayey gi mohabbat hamari ye socha thaa

ab to khwaabon main bhi teri yaad aati hai
tumaray bina is duniya main mera kuch na thaa

Note: Many phrases of this composition in part come from the titles of poems posted today at this site. I claim no authorship to them and the credit must go
to the great poets of Urdu love poetry. I’d, however, like to know what do you honestly think of the above composition. Does it mean anything to you? Is it how Urdu love poetry is written? Does it make Urdu poetry?

and now to your (or rather poem of many poets I must say)..

what do I think?

I think it is a good effort regardless of the output.

What does it mean to me?

It feels like you are trying too hard to keep the “zameen” of the ghazal in your hand but losing in more than few places and hence, the diction is getting comical at times.

Is it how urdu poetry is written?

if you mean by taking lines from other poets and comprising one then, NO - this is how plagiarism is taken place :P… J/K .
It may be close to how urdu poetry is written but my personal experience tells me that Urdu poetry is never written; it is revealed and it happens. Do not ask me further details for it will take me several thousand words to explain.

Does it make Urdu Poetry?

Umm.. only if it is being corrected by some urdu teacher…

And now let me see what do you have to offer in your next posts… sounds very promising

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

plagiarism? explain please

[AQ]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

plagiarism? explain please

aap kahaN say aa gaye idhar daraanay hammaiN :D

abay yaar in his first post he claims that he took the lines from different poem in this forum and created a poem... now although he does not claim that poem (why are we calling it poem anyway) to be his own, but it is still plagiarism to create a piece of poetry or prose from someone else's thoughts.

[AQ]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

2 qatra dariya me jo mil jaye, dariya ho jaaye

qatra dariya me jo mil jaye, dariya ho jaaye kaam accha hai wo jisska M-aal accha hai humko maalum hai jannat ki haqueeqat lekin dil ko khush rakhne ke liye gaalib ye khayal accha hai.

• Ghalib

Could anyone tell me what Ghalib meant by "humko maalum hai jannat ki haqueeqat lekin."

Did he not believe in the descrpition of heaven as portrayed in Quran or in other Islamic religious texts? If he did, then why he's saying he knows it as everyone else would know in that case. What is he implying here? Does he mean that the soul of man finally meets with God - the grand soul of all, and that's it? The metaphor here is of a raindrop meeting a river and becoming a river. Is Ghalib implying there are no gardens and fountains in heaven, and there are no *paris or virgins *there? I would not like to extend it too far lest it falls out of the range of a poetic discussion.

I am no authority in Ghalib neither do I know, or anyother person probably know for that matter that what Ghalib had in mind when he wrote these lines.. by the way, I thought the last misraa was "Dil kay behlaanay ko Ghalib yeh khiyaaL achaa hai" ... I might be wrong but please, verify...

In my personal understanding, you are taking this piece of Ghalib too LITERALLY. At one hand, you talk about metaphors used and at the same time you ignore the other metaphors. And I think you have answered your own question by mentioning the metaphor of "qatra dariya maiN jo mil jaaye, dariya ho jaaye" ... You see, for a believer, the most precious thing is to meet his creator and not the creation. Jannat and what it contains are the creation. Ghalib is more interested in meeting with The God -Almighty. When you can see God, the beauty of God and blessings of God is way bigger than Jannat. He's only trying to compare the two things. Once you can meet God, He can give you many jannataiN so by just getting one without seeing Him is not as good as seeing Him and getting a lot more than that...

I hope it made sense :) remember it is only my understanding of it and may not be exactly how a good poet can understand it :)

[AQ]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

3 A verse by Ghalib

tum mere pas hote ho goya jab koi dusra nahin hota

-Ghalib

Does this verse by Ghalib have multiple interpretations? What is your interpretation? Any taker?

Would you, Amal and NikamiJano, comment on the verse?

there is a saying that really makes a lot of sense in religious context for a monotheistic person . the saying goes, "a good friend enters your life, when everyone else leaves it."

if you extend this to the concept of the invisible but sure presence of Almighty then Galib hopefully had God in his heart when he said these poetic lines.

Dushwari

I think Dushwari's explanation is one interpretations if you want to look at it with the angle of Ishq-e-Haqeeqi, one of the two terms which divides Urdu Poetry in TWO major categories... Ishq-e-Haqeeqi is the Love of the your Creator...

To further elaborate it, take it this way... when no one helps you, you extend your hands for suplications infront of God and He is always there for you even when you do not find anyone to help you... You have hopes in Him and this shair is just a gesture of that glimpse of Hope :)

But I think Ghalib did not write this couplet in that sense; however, it perfectly fits in that explanation..

Is Ghalib really referring to God in the following verse? tum mere pas hote ho goya jab koi dusra nahin hota

goya=as if?

As said above, it can be one interpretations but if we look at it with the angle of Ishq-e-Mijaazi, the very simple interpretation is that when a person is lonely, he only thinks about the one he loves... as if his love is with him though in his thoughts and dreams :-)

[Amal]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

Well Anwaar, you have done a tremendous job. Hats off to you It is a difficult task to explain such a thing in poetry by going into so much of the details. I really appreciate you and I also hope that this discussion will not be used for counter-arguments alone

[Amal]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

3 A verse by Ghalib

tum mere pas hote ho goya jab koi dusra nahin hota

-Ghalib

Does this verse by Ghalib have multiple interpretations? What is your interpretation? Any taker?

Would you, Amal and NikamiJano, comment on the verse?

rkopra your answer is in the word goya. It is separating two conditions and the poet wants to say that he is never alone because if someone else is not there with him, tum (the addressee) is there to be with the poet. It has been twisted a bit in a Hindi song which may solve your problem. In the song, goya has been removed and jab (in the 2nd line) is used as a condition.

[NikamiJano]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

@Amal

Well Anwaar, you have done a tremendous job. Hats off to you It is a difficult task to explain such a thing in poetry by going into so much of the details. I really appreciate you and I also hope that this discussion will not be used for counter-arguments alone

Same thing i wud like to say…

[rkopra]

Re: Shayer Fehmi

Great thread rkopra

I concur many things that you have said. Ironically, I share the same sentiments in this regard. Do not be surprised! I only agree or disagree with the statments not the persons here in these forums :-)

I do not consider my self among the titles you have counted but I will try anyway...

I agree... I have said a smiliar thing 4 years back in this very forum.. The kind of responses I'd received was very encouraging but no one changed their way:D

I will try to quote what I had said back in 2003 with some corrections in sentence structures:

so you see I have raised these points years back in this forum. Keep in mind, Amal and NikamiJano were not the moderators. you did! I initially had thought to not come in this thread but after reading the contents, I think it would have been a selfish act not to respond.

and now to your (or rather poem of many poets I must say)..

what do I think?

I think it is a good effort regardless of the output.

What does it mean to me?

It feels like you are trying too hard to keep the "zameen" of the ghazal in your hand but losing in more than few places and hence, the diction is getting comical at times.

Is it how urdu poetry is written?

if you mean by taking lines from other poets and comprising one then, NO - this is how plagiarism is taken place :P... J/K . It may be close to how urdu poetry is written but my personal experience tells me that Urdu poetry is never written; it is revealed and it happens. Do not ask me further details for it will take me several thousand words to explain.

Does it make Urdu Poetry?

Umm.. only if it is being corrected by some urdu teacher....

And now let me see what do you have to offer in your next posts... sounds very promising :)

Dear Anwaar Quereshi, first of all I would like to thank you profusely for joining me in Shayer Fehmi and expressing your opinions about the appreciation of poetry. I feel I am going to find a great friend in you. Please do not take any comments of mine in any conflicting manner. I am amazed that you guys think I am here for counter arguments or hitting others. It's far from true. I want to engage you all in constructive discussions about the appreciation of poetry, Urdu poetry in particular. And I hope I am not asking too much of you - instead of keeping the feelings stored inside after reading a poem, why not express what the poem means to a reader here, and to make some comments on the poem itself.

Since you have shown great enthusiasm in joining me in Shayer Fehmi, and as you had about 4 years ago raised the same concerns ( I joined this forum recently and was not aware of that) I am considering asking Amal to make you an originator of Shayer Fehmi with me. I want to pay respects to you in this humble manner. What do you think? Please take my comments and questions in a friendly manner. Thanks again and kind regards. Ravi Kopra.

Note: I thank Amal and Nikamijano for visiting Shayer Fehmi after you **graced **its pages. I will be posting further Urdu poetry in the spirit of its contribution to the world literature.